Neil Gaiman defends man charged with L.oli Manga

[Despanan]

http://splashpage.mtv.com/2008/11/24...andleys-trial/

Originally it looks like the guy was charged with child pornography because of his collection of l.oli and yaoi manga.

Now it seems to have been bumped down to "obscenity".

Thoughts?

[SKULHEDFACE]

This is an interesting subject indeed. I personally think that the whole thing is silly. At what point do you draw the line between art and what may be considered a crime. I say you let people alone and allow them to create whatever the fuck they want. I don't care if they like drawing newborn infants being impaled by enormous penises because they aren't hurting anyone in the process of creating said images. Sure these materials shouldn't find their way into the hands of children, as is the case with all adult content material.

Now an argument can be made that these creations could somehow provoke a person to start behaving in an irrational way as depicted in the aforementioned images, but then you're just asking for a whole heap of trouble. Can we no longer draw violence or acts of murder for fear that others will try to emulate the art? It just doesn't make any sense to me.

Another thought is that pedo.philes do in fact exist in the world, whether it is a disease you are born with or something that develops as you progress through life I don't know..and I don't care. The second these acts are committed however, then they become a crime, and in my opinion is the only time they should be acted upon. Sure you may say "But then it'll be too late!". That's where good parenting comes in. Pay attention to your children, educate them on the dangers of creepos in the real world, and make sure they have a full understanding of the situation. Whether or not these images exist, perverts and pedo.philes will continue to, so abolishing these things will not fix the problem. I also like to think that while a pedophile can get his hands on some perverted materials that he'll stay at home and masturbate, rather than going out on the streets to find his fix.

[Saya]

So if he's convicted, will it be illegal for someone to purchase yaoi or loli?

I watched hentai last night that involved characters that looked like they may have been underage >.> Now I'm a perv AND guilty of a felony. Have to think of a way to ID comic book characters now.

[Wednesday Friday Addams]

I never knew that drawn characters had feelings.

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Saya

So if he's convicted, will it be illegal for someone to purchase yaoi or loli?

I watched hentai last night that involved characters that looked like they may have been underage >.> Now I'm a perv AND guilty of a felony. Have to think of a way to ID comic book characters now.

I am currently in the process of sending this post to the FBI you monster!

Yaoi and l.oli are pretty weird, but illegal? Yeah, I don't think so.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Despanan

I am currently in the process of sending this post to the FBI you monster!

Yaoi and l.oli are pretty weird, but illegal? Yeah, I don't think so.

I sent this link to my ex and we talked about it for a bit, and he was telling me a few hentai sites do say "All characters are above the age of 18." o.O

If this sticks and they prosecute anyone with obscene hentai, the court proceedings are going to be hilarious.

"And you are here to testify that in this video, this school girl with obscenely and impossibly huge breasts is depicted being r@ped by a monster with tentacles, am I right?" [Woman faints in the jury]

[SKULHEDFACE]

Originally Posted by Saya

I sent this link to my ex and we talked about it for a bit, and he was telling me a few hentai sites do say "All characters are above the age of 18." o.O

If this sticks and they prosecute anyone with obscene hentai, the court proceedings are going to be hilarious.

"And you are here to testify that in this video, this school girl with obscenely and impossibly huge breasts is depicted being r@ped by a monster with tentacles, am I right?" [Woman faints in the jury]

You know that's a good point. I really think that the internet's perverseness is something that the courts should stay far away from.

I have seen hentai where the little schoolgirls grow dicks and raep people...so who is the victim exactly?! There are also others where they turn into tentacle monsters or what have you...there is just way too much strange shit on the interwebs.

[Despanan]

Here's the legal deffinition of "Obscenity". It's pretty goddamn stupid and puritanical if you ask me. For one thing, it only relates to "pornographic" material (which I suppose is why excessive, non-sexual violence is not "obscene")

OBSCENE, OBSCENITY - Such indecency as is calculated to promote the violation of the law and the general corruption of morals.

The exhibition of an obscene picture is an indictable offense at common law, although not charged to have been exhibited in public, if it be averred that the picture was exhibited to sundry persons for money.

For something to be "obscene" it must be shown that the average person, applying contemporary community standards and viewing the material as a whole, would find (1) that the work appeals predominantly to "prurient" interest; (2) that it depicts or describes sexual conduct in a patently offensive way; and (3) that it lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value.

An appeal to "prurient" interest is an appeal to a morbid, degrading and unhealthy interest in sex, as distinguished from a mere candid interest in sex.

The first test to be applied, therefore, in determining whether given material is obscene, is whether the predominant theme or purpose of the material, when viewed as a whole and not part by part, and when considered in relation to the intended and probable recipients, is an appeal to the prurient interest of the average person of the community as a whole, or the prurient interest of members of a deviant sexual group, as the case might be.

The "predominant theme or purpose of the material, when viewed as a whole," means the main or principal thrust of the material when assessed in its entirety and on the basis of its total effect, and not on the basis of incidental themes or isolated passages or sequences.

Whether the predominant theme or purpose of the material is an appeal to the prurient interest of the "average person of the community as a whole" is a judgment which must be made in the light of contemporary standards as would be applied by the average person with an average and normal attitude toward, and interest in, sex. Contemporary community standards, in turn, are set by what is accepted in the community as a whole; that is to say, by society at large or people in general. So, obscenity is not a matter of individual taste and the question is not how the material impresses an individual juror; rather, as stated before, the test is how the average person of the community as a whole would view the material.

In addition to considering the average or normal person, the prurient appeal requirement may also be assessed in terms of the sexual interest of a clearly defined deviant sexual group if the material was intended to appeal to the prurient interest of such a group as, for example, homosexuals.

The second test to be applied in determining whether given material is obscene is whether it depicts or describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct such as ultimate sexual acts, normal or perverted, actual or simulated; masturbation; excretory functions; or lewd exhibition of the genitals measured against whether the material is patently offensive by contemporary community standards; that is, whether it so exceeds the generally accepted limits of candor as to be clearly offensive.

Contemporary community standards, as stated before, are those established by what is generally accepted in the community as a whole; that is to say, by society at large or people in general, and not by what some groups of persons may believe the community as a whole ought to accept or refuse to accept. It is a matter of common knowledge that customs change and that the community as a whole may from time to time find acceptable that which was formerly unacceptable.

The third test to be applied in determining whether given material is obscene is whether the material, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value. An item may have serious value in one or more of these areas even though it portrays explicit sexual conduct.

All three of these tests must be met before the material in question can be found to be obscene. If any one of them is not met the material would not be obscene within the meaning of the law.

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by StupidLaw

The third test to be applied in determining whether given material is obscene is whether the material, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value. An item may have serious value in one or more of these areas even though it portrays explicit sexual conduct.

Fortunately we have a perfectly unambiguous standard for what constitutes literary and / or artistic value.

[KontanKarite]

Thats got to be the most fuckspearded thing I've ever read.

[Saya]

In addition to considering the average or normal person, the prurient appeal requirement may also be assessed in terms of the sexual interest of a clearly defined deviant sexual group if the material was intended to appeal to the prurient interest of such a group as, for example, homosexuals.

Uh, is this saying homosexuals are deviants? I can't tell if this is saying "you should take into consideration some groups find this to be good" or if its saying "is it catering to a deviant group? If yes, its obscene."

[Despanan]

I'm not sure. I'd hope the former.

[Steppenwolf]

Originally Posted by Wednesday Friday Addams

I never knew that drawn characters had feelings.

Exactly . That this is happening here is the answer why in Europe make fun and insult the USA . For the love of god , as long as you don't show this to any kids or use any kids ... where the hell is the problem????
What about me? What if I use some "forbidden sex" on my writings? Are they going to send me to jail too?

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Steppenwolf

Exactly . That this is happening here is the answer why in Europe make fun and insult the USA . For the love of god , as long as you don't show this to any kids or use any kids ... where the hell is the problem????
What about me? What if I use some "forbidden sex" on my writings? Are they going to send me to jail too?

Somehow I don't see this conversation taking place:

French guy #1: "You know John Paul, those Americans are so stupid. How dare they prosecute someone for having a manga where a gender-swapped lo.li Naruto tentacle r@pes the sailor scouts after they get done turning into futanari and ejaculating into each other's shitting nipples?"

French Guy #2: "I don't know Pierre, want to go watch my Slash OVAs? I've got one where Vash the Stampede is sodomized by Sonic the Hedgehog."

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Despanan

Somehow I don't see this conversation taking place:

French guy #1: "You know John Paul, those Americans are so stupid. How dare they prosecute someone for having a manga where a gender-swapped lo.li Naruto tentacle r@pes the sailor scouts after they get done turning into futanari and ejaculating into each other's shitting nipples?"

French Guy #2: "I don't know Pierre, want to go watch my Slash OVAs? I've got one where Vash the Stampede is sodomized by Sonic the Hedgehog."

Probably because John Paul isn't French, JEAN Paul on the other hand, he's as French as the day is long and he likes some hentai.

[Despanan]

SHHHH! John Paul doesn't want Pierre to know he's an American Ex-Patriot.

He fled the country after the FBI discovered his stash of "Hermione/Whomping Willow" Harry Potter Fanfiction.

[KontanKarite]

OHJ NOES!! The COPS, they GRAB YOU!

[viscus]

It is my professional opinion as an asshole that the arresting officer and district attorney in this case felt an uncomfortable rush of blood to the penis upon seeing drawings of androgynous young men in a homosexual situation, at which they felt extremely embarrassed and overreacted to.

[bleedingheart344]

Yaoi and loli aren't really alike... how are they equating both?

[Steppenwolf]

Originally Posted by Despanan

Somehow I don't see this conversation taking place:

French guy #1: "You know John Paul, those Americans are so stupid. How dare they prosecute someone for having a manga where a gender-swapped lo.li Naruto tentacle r@pes the sailor scouts after they get done turning into futanari and ejaculating into each other's shitting nipples?"

French Guy #2: "I don't know Pierre, want to go watch my Slash OVAs? I've got one where Vash the Stampede is sodomized by Sonic the Hedgehog."

(Oooh , I see , so you are one of those Mr. Benedict agents undercover ...)
Nop ... That was more like it :
German guy #1 : Have you heard of this guy being arrested for having manga porn?
German guy #2 : Shit ... Where?
German guy #1 : Do you remember that fascist country , the ones who killed innocent iraki people , vietnam people , afghan people ...? The ones who arrested Timoty Leary and the ones who are responsible for global warming and the economic crisis?
German guy #2 : That can be only the USA!!! ... And now are they arresting people for drawing erotic manga? That is sooo usa ... They have no freedom of expresion , how I pity them ...

[Albert Mond]

Yaoi's not even always pedophilic.

[Utho]

I am not too familiar with the whole Manga-genre, but it always seemed somewhat "special" to me, because of its tendency towards visual and narative extremes.

Childish looking girls that are "done" by acid-styled monsters/demons/things and other stuff of this kind is bound to cause offense in many ppl. I am openly surprised this stuff hasn´t been blacklisted, yet.

[Albert Mond]

Originally Posted by Utho

I am not too familiar with the whole Manga-genre, but it always seemed somewhat "special" to me, because of its tendency towards visual and narative extremes.

Childish looking girls that are "done" by acid-styled monsters/demons/things and other stuff of this kind is bound to cause offense in many ppl. I am openly surprised this stuff hasn´t been blacklisted, yet.

I think I've read that tentacle-**** originates in Japanese Mythology.

[Apathy's_Child]

" "Do you remember there was a law passed prohibiting making things that simulated child pornography, even if the things actually weren’t?” Gaiman asked, referring to part of the PROTECT Act (18 U.S.C. Section 1466A). (As in situations where an of-age female is in a pornographic situation, but “where she’s being presented as if she were 13.”) “They said, ‘For heaven’s sake, we’re not talking about art. We’re only talking about stuff where you’re leading people to believe they’re looking at real child porn,’” said Gaiman."

That is one sick goddamn law. I'mma draw myself getting a blowjob from a baby now, out of sheer. Fucking. Principle.

[Utho]

Originally Posted by Albert Mond

I think I've read that tentacle-**** originates in Japanese Mythology.

Exactly what I heard!
I think I saw some ancient art depicting s th of this kind. - Maybe this sort of myth comes easy to ppl that are living on an island that is "tectonically" challenged. - I don´t know.
I grew up with children-stories of bad wolves (or slightly demented toon-cats), that failed to work on me.
Thinking about it, tentacle-gods (threatening to r'pe me) could have been more effective in delivering messages, back then.

I feel tempted to take a leap into comperative mythology at this point, but I restrain myself.