Goth: Your Opinion

[Ra_star]

I hate goths.

[Man In Room 5]

Originally Posted by PinstripesAndPithHelmets

Goth is whatever the hell you make of it.

I keep hearing that but it's not really true. Go to any goth club and the clothing obviously has a theme. So does the music. So do our favorite books and movies. A look at the picture post thread here, the "what are you currently reading" thread, and the "what are you currently listening to" thread will bear this out. There's a lot of flexibility within goth but there is obviously a detectable theme and certain motifs fall outside of that theme. The issue is that nobody wants to draw that line of what is within the scene and what is outside of it. As you say, nobody has that authority, but collectively the goth scene in general does have the authority. This is exactly why you don't see people dressed as cowboys or gangster rappers in goth clubs. Those people aren't gothic; they are country-western fans and gangster rap fans and they have their own clubs, bands, movies and books which appeal to them because they fall within their theme. Also, it's not a matter of us keeping these people out as it is that they choose not to participate. Nobody is stopping non-goths from entering a goth club but they usually choose not to enter because they recognize that the goth scene has a theme or motif they don't understand or aren't interested in just as most goths wouldn't go to a country-western bar.

People who say goth is whatever you want to make it are similar to those goths who deny being goth (like Peter Murphy, Robert Smith and Andrew Eldritch). They resist the label because the individual wants room to be creative or flexible; but only within the goth scene. They want the freedom to build on the goth image in new ways and push it in new directions, just like Murphy, Smith and Eldritch have done. They might want the freedom to mix goth with steampunk, cyberpunk, or dark cabaret but I seriously doubt they're going to dress up as cowboys or a barbershop quartet and call it goth.

The downside to my argument is that I come dangerously close to saying that goth is "a way of life"; which is a total load of bullshit and exactly the thing GM was attacking above. I'll never say that goth is a way of life but I will say it's an artistic theme or aesthetic. Goths enjoy goth music, movies, books, and art that have that aesthetic but only the dumbest ones would try to live it out or believe that their POV from within that aesthetic is objective reality. In short, I know I like dark creepy music, books, and movies but I don't use that to argue that the real world is equally dark and creepy.

[PinstripesAndPithHelmets]

Mixing goth with country-western? You mean like... Rockabilly?

You're right, you generally won't see members of other subcultures in a goth club, but that just bears out my point.

Not only do members of a certain subculture define themselves by adhering to whatever aesthetic they want to be identified with, they also seek to define themselves by denying those subcultures that are different. Exclusionary practices are just as important as being inclusive of whatever elements are identified with a certain subculture. A country-western nut will not only act "country-western", but will usually, should the topic be brought up, denigrate (pun!) "goths" for being weirdoes with black nail polish.

All subcultures follow the same rules of definition, and in that canon of "do's" and "don'ts" there is the tacit guideline that self-definition by exclusion is not only acceptable, but encouraged.

Hence the attitude, "Hell no I'm not an emo! I'm goth!".

[Albert Mond]

Originally Posted by PinstripesAndPithHelmets

Mixing goth with country-western? You mean like... Rockabilly?

No, no. Rockabilly was pre-Punk/Goth. I think you mean Psychobilly.

[PinstripesAndPithHelmets]

Originally Posted by Albert Mond

No, no. Rockabilly was pre-Punk/Goth. I think you mean Psychobilly.

Forgive me for my trespass! ...But thank you for further proving my point.

[viscus]

I wish we could close the book on this. I've seen countless discussions about what Goth is and they're always a bunch of people trying to twist it to suit their own tastes.

[Man In Room 5]

Originally Posted by PinstripesAndPithHelmets

members of a certain subculture define themselves by adhering to whatever aesthetic they want to be identified with,

I'm not sure I understand you here. When you say "members of a certain subculture" you imply that they're already part of the subcultre--already goth--so naturally they have embraced the goth aesthetic. It sounds like you're saying "goths become goth because they're already goth". I'm sure that's not what you mean. I'd disagree and provide my own example: I wasn't punk until I was about 14 and I started hearing punk on college radio, bought several punk albums, and began to dress punk. Once I did this the other punks at my school suddenly began to associate with me and accept me as a punk.

Or do you mean to say that collectively the goth scene is at liberty to decide what is goth and what isn't and that to join goth means to embrace whatever they declare it to be? That's true--but I'd wonder how much the scene could change before we no longer called it goth. If goths collectively drift too far from the current goth aesthetic or drift too much into another subcultre then I have to wonder is it still considered goth. I think nobody wants to draw that line, which is exactly why people resist a definition of goth and why it's hard to draw lines between punk/goth/emo. But I suppose that inability to draw that line is exactly your point...that a subculture does "drift" over time and joining it means to embrace whatever it is at the moment.

Or, am I totally misunderstanding you?

[Man In Room 5]

Originally Posted by viscus

I wish we could close the book on this. I've seen countless discussions about what Goth is and they're always a bunch of people trying to twist it to suit their own tastes.

Affected world-weariness is so gothic.

[PinstripesAndPithHelmets]

Originally Posted by Man In Room 5

I'm not sure I understand you here. When you say "members of a certain subculture" you imply that they're already part of the subcultre--already goth--so naturally they have embraced the goth aesthetic. It sounds like you're saying "goths become goth because they're already goth". I'm sure that's not what you mean.

That's not at all what I mean, nor is it what I said.

Originally Posted by Man In Room 5

Or do you mean to say that collectively the goth scene is at liberty to decide what is goth and what isn't and that to join goth means to embrace whatever they declare it to be? That's true--but I'd wonder how much the scene could change before we no longer called it goth.

Something to that effect, but that last sentence, the bit about how long something could be called goth, is a bit misguided.

First, I should note that for the purposes of this argument I'm treating a group of people, a subculture, as its own singular entity. Having said that, I assert that a subculture will call itself whatever it wants for however long the bulk of its members want to call it that.

We differ on one major point, which may be contributing to your confusion: You seem to be treating "goth" as if it has a set definition; I am saying that there is no set definition, only the malleable one that the majority wants to use at any given moment.

Originally Posted by Man In Room 5

If goths collectively drift too far from the current goth aesthetic or drift too much into another subcultre then I have to wonder is it still considered goth.

The bulk of any subculture can't collectively drift away from the current aesthetic, because the aesthetic moves and changes with the subculture. That would imply the aesthetic to be static, and members of a subculture to be mobile. Instead, the aesthetic is mobile while those not following it are static. The majority of people proclaiming themselves "goth" (or punk, or country-western) are the ones that decide what that subculture will be, not the minority opposition.

To put it bluntly, aesthetic doesn't define the subculture. Rather, the subculture defines its aesthetic.

Two words sum it up nicely: MAJORITY RULES. If you've got enough people saying "goth is pink and frilly!", then that is what goth will be.

Originally Posted by Man In Room 5

But I suppose that inability to draw that line is exactly your point...that a subculture does "drift" over time and joining it means to embrace whatever it is at the moment.

Bull's-eye.

[Man In Room 5]

So then, having said that, do you see a correlation between today's goth scene and the gothic literature of the 18th and 19th centuries or the gothic art of the 15th century? Because--without typing another entire essay--I do. Which leads me to think there is a gothic aesthetic that endures over time.

[PinstripesAndPithHelmets]

Originally Posted by Man In Room 5

So then, having said that, do you see a correlation between today's goth scene and the gothic literature of the 18th and 19th centuries or the gothic art of the 15th century? Because--without typing another entire essay--I do. Which leads me to think there is a gothic aesthetic that endures over time.

I'm not sure. Perhaps there is a set gothic aesthetic, but by that reasoning wouldn't the designers of gothic cathedrals in 15th century France have shared traits with the goths of our modern era? I highly doubt you can in any way compare the, largely religious, scholars and artisans responsible for producing gothic art and architecture to the crowd at Hot Topic. Still, seeing as though "mallgoths" seem to be in the majority, they are what I would call de facto goth. There are lots of them, they call themselves goth, and, as there is no set definition for the term, I suppose we will have to concede the label.

[Alarica]

At the end of the day as long as you are happy with who you are, what the hell does it matter where the lines defining the subcultures lie? Whatever you 'label' yourself as there will always be people who will call it as they see it. I mostly wear black, and have done since i was younger, amongst many other things i see on here defined as 'goth' and i get called a goth daily. Yet i am not a goth. Nor am i in denial. A bit like Robert Smith who you insist is a goth in denial. He says he isnt a goth, so why do you insist he is.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by viscus

I wish we could close the book on this. I've seen countless discussions about what Goth is and they're always a bunch of people trying to twist it to suit their own tastes.

Actually, I'm willing to bet it's more like people who love to act dark and spooky and wear lots of black but can't stand Sisters of Mercy want to desperately to fit into the goth club that they'll say, "Goth is what you make of it!"

[PinstripesAndPithHelmets]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

Actually, I'm willing to bet it's more like people who love to act dark and spooky and wear lots of black but can't stand Sisters of Mercy want to desperately to fit into the goth club that they'll say, "Goth is what you make of it!"

All I see here is you saying that you must act dark and spooky and like Sisters of Mercy to be "goth". You have, in effect, whether intentionally or not, defined goth. I disagree with your definition. It represents, possibly, a snapshot in time, an instance when that might've defined goth, but only for a moment. On the whole, however, your definition is narrow and lacking. It is static.

You're also putting goths on some sort of pedestal. You make it seem like goths are so cool that people who want so desperately to fit in with them will attempt to emulate their styles, but diminish the importance of certain aspects that they find distasteful. You may be right, to be sure, but only in certain cases. This all works to support my original point.

What happens when those older cool kids lose the taste for dressing up in PVC and listening to Siouxsie and the Banshees? What happens when they move on to something else? They leave behind those, mostly younger, people that didn't quite cut it, and never quite fit in. Then they, the poor fits, are who's left to define the subculture. The subculture is molded by whomever is left.

[Vexik]

I find this thread to be intriguing, informative, and in many places insightful. I also came to this forum expecting something very different, though I didn't have the nerve to put it as bluntly as Skullhedface.

I admit it, I came here for corsets and eyeshadow. As I've said before, I'm not goth at all (though I do love Gothic architecture).

[Eclipsing the Son]

Originally Posted by PinstripesAndPithHelmets

For a group ostensibly dedicated to self-expression goths worry a lot about labels.

Exactly.

Like the southpark goths issue. The same people watch that show and say "Wow. They really know what goths are. I wonder if Matt and Trey were goth back in the day."

No bitches. They are making fun of you. These are the stereotypes of goth culture and you perfectly fit the credentials. Anybody with a life does not dedicate it to making a fashion/music statement into a religious philosophy with crazy boundaries. They're all laughing at you.

If you think being 'troo goth' or 'knowing what goth really is' holds any weight, you're an idiot. You are just as looney as any other elitist.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by PinstripesAndPithHelmets

All I see here is you saying that you must act dark and spooky and like Sisters of Mercy to be "goth". You have, in effect, whether intentionally or not, defined goth. I disagree with your definition. It represents, possibly, a snapshot in time, an instance when that might've defined goth, but only for a moment. On the whole, however, your definition is narrow and lacking. It is static.

You're also putting goths on some sort of pedestal. You make it seem like goths are so cool that people who want so desperately to fit in with them will attempt to emulate their styles, but diminish the importance of certain aspects that they find distasteful. You may be right, to be sure, but only in certain cases. This all works to support my original point.

What happens when those older cool kids lose the taste for dressing up in PVC and listening to Siouxsie and the Banshees? What happens when they move on to something else? They leave behind those, mostly younger, people that didn't quite cut it, and never quite fit in. Then they, the poor fits, are who's left to define the subculture. The subculture is molded by whomever is left.

I WILL define it. A goth is a fan of goth rock. I've always said that and honestly, that's MORE liberal than the stigma of those that try to define their gothiness by other avenues such as fashion.

Good question: Who's MORE goth? The person that loves goth rock and listens to it all the time, but doesn't dress weird in any way, doesn't try to make their life more "gothic" or the guy who listens to Cradle of Filth and takes every measure possible to come off as "goth"?

[Eclipsing the Son]

Neither. Both are just as goth as the other. If you believe otherwise you're an elitist moron. Though I'd bet quite a bit that the former would believe themselves to be truer goth than the latter and not the other way around, making them arrogant fucktards as well as goths.

[Utho]

Where I come from, this sort question is the most easy way to stir up a vicious controversy. - Ask 5 people, get 7 fiercely defended opinions, with options for further.

I resorted to using the term of "Schwarze Szene" (black scene), in order to focus on the smallest common nominator (clothing); but I am aware that this is fairly inaccurate and fuzzy.

@Man In Room 5
I also share most of the points you have made, including the connection you drew between the aethetics of the "scene" and the architecture.
(I am highly ignorant on the literature you mentioned. Would you mind elaborating a lil, beyond what can be deducted from what you´ve said up to now?)


Reading all this makes me wonder how - exactly - the differences between the social positioning of goth-scenes in Europe and the US are made up.
Maybe y´all could help me with understanding. - I have been to the US several times, but I never visited a goth-club.

Over here, "Gothic" - when applied to music - can mean anything between an a-capella medieval choir - and Cradle of Filth.
On a big festival like the WGT in Leipzig, there are lots of people that love the "scene" for this wide range of different types of music - all of which adhere to some guideline for "emotional contents".

Last night I had to fill in DJing for a guy in a club, which gives a good/tragic example what "Gothic" can be.
The floor took some 300 ppl, and the audience consisted almost completely of weekend-goths and normals. There were some 2 or 3 old-school guys that annoyed the hell out of me by continiungly asking for "real" goth-music, while the rest of the "crap"/"normals" had shown up
A) To hear popular sounds they knew from that goth-show on TV
and
B) In the hope of seeing some goth-chicks showing flesh.
Too many voyeurs - and nothing to see. - Tragic show.

All members of what I´d call "scene" were some 20 minutes away, where I would have been, if I had not been on this crappy job.
In that club where I´m used to go, the industrial and noise segment of the regional scene meets out. Them ppl are sympathetically neurotic, wholesale mental to a degree, socially ill-adapted, superbly arrogant, over average intelligent - and most of all - refreshingly psycho.

But it is a core-group of 15-20 happily disturbed goth-elektro people that fills a club with 500-700 ppl.
Beyond this hard core, there are some 100 youngsters. Girls that admire the glittering "female splendour"/insanity of our electro-dolls, and small guys that - are attracted by the same. From this group some "progress" over the stages:
- Showing up,looking normal. Looking depressed, getting drunk.
- Showing up with newly-bought gothic-wear from one of the leading catalogues, staying sober
- Buying a second "suit"
And then seems to be the "critical" point. - Some stay "weekend"; others start to freak out/de-socialize with the main stream of society. By visual style, they try to set themselves apart from what is understood as "normals" and embrace the "cultural contents", mentioned earlier in this thread.

Every youngster going this far, gains some respect - even if he is the greatest shit.

But majority of ppl in this trendy goth-club are hormonally challenged nu-metal guys and chicks that arrange themselves with the music, just for the visuals and the hope of getting an attractive (and dirrrrty) f##k. - But they don´t, so they drink. That´s the game. Elektros do not drink much - we are not profitable for any club; it´s the normal/average voyeurs that live on the dream of getting an aesthetic lay - and that drown their despair in alc.
When they are drunk and have left in disappointed lonliness - our night starts.
Some even show up as late as 03:30 to spare themselves the riffraff.


And this is where I see the main difference in the positioning within society, when comparing "punk" and "goth". - In my eyes, "punk" had its attraction in s th (I´d call for now) "ideals" or "ideological values" or attitudes, what I experienced as "goth" has nothing of this kind. There are emotional values, like the romance-thingy and them social (and a.o. mating) issues - but I failed in identifying any common ideological "agreement" within the scene. What I noticed is a refreshing variety of ppl I´d (friendly) call individualistic.

My sub-culture of choice. To me some sort of social "honeypot" for characters I like.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by Eclipsing the Son

Neither. Both are just as goth as the other. If you believe otherwise you're an elitist moron. Though I'd bet quite a bit that the former would believe themselves to be truer goth than the latter and not the other way around, making them arrogant fucktards as well as goths.

What I want to understand now is why this is so important.

Obviously, the one that's a fan of goth rock is a goth. The other is just a confused metalhead.

WHY oh WHY is it so important for people to make sure others consider them goths when they're not?

[Bete Noire]

The term "goth" only has no boundaries because people who don't fit it, but find some strange attraction to the idea of it, decide they're going to ignore the definition and make one that will incorporate them.

what I find more interesting than "what is goth?" is "Why is goth such an attractive label that people feel the need to twist its meaning to suit themselves, when they clearly don't fit it"

[jack_the_knife]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

What I want to understand now is why this is so important.

Cosigned.asdfasdfasfdasfasf

[Eclipsing the Son]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

What I want to understand now is why this is so important.

Obviously, the one that's a fan of goth rock is a goth. The other is just a confused metalhead.

WHY oh WHY is it so important for people to make sure others consider them goths when they're not?

Weak argument. I could just as easily ask the same question. Why is it so important that you and YOUR ilk be the only breed known as goth?

What if the metal head ALSO owns every Bauhaus album and is also into the traditional goth rock and death rock bands and attends the same frequented haunts and clubs as you? Can they only listen to goth rock because any sacrificed attention to another genre shows a lack of consistent allegiance?

[Bat Attack]

Originally Posted by Bete Noire

The term "goth" only has no boundaries because people who don't fit it, but find some strange attraction to the idea of it, decide they're going to ignore the definition and make one that will incorporate them.

True, but they're just delusional.

[gothicusmaximus]

Originally Posted by Eclipsing the Son

What if the metal head ALSO owns every Bauhaus album and is also into the traditional goth rock and death rock bands and attends the same frequented haunts and clubs as you? Can they only listen to goth rock because any sacrificed attention to another genre shows a lack of consistent allegiance?

I don't think that's what Kontan is saying. I think his only point is that one must listen to goth rock to be goth, at least by the most commonly accepted definition of the subculture.
Then again, as I've said before, anyone is technically free to redefine a given word. However, the guy who decides that "detective" means "gay prostitute" should be prepared to encounter some confusion when he approaches a detective and asks "want to go get a room so I can lick your asshole?"