Wow.

[Drake Dun]

I didn't realize exactly how bad it was.

http://www.atheistnation.net/video/?video/00118

Drake

[Renatus]

The evangelists are essentialy brainwashing. Like communists they take their young ones isolate them from the rest of the world and prevent them from hearing any real evidence against their argument, that is why the most isolated parts of the country are controled by them. They say they are about god, yet they build these huge luxury stadiums for churches. They say they have conclusive evidence for their arguments and that evil can simply be ignored and it will go away, which is why they are pretty much why the protestants are the only ones who do not practice exorcism. They say they promote tolerance, which is why they activly persecute people and if you noticed dressed their children up in military camo make up and clothes. The worst thing of it all is now some new sect has come up saying, god wants you to be rich while completely negating those in need. The majority of the protestants (there are exceptions) only preach the stuff that sounds good. If somthing says, oh maybe we are doing somthing wrong or, oh maybe there is more evil than we thought and that we should change our ways they banish the very concept of such things from their lives. These evangelists preach that god wants people to have free will, they seem to have conveniently forgotten the freedom of thought part.

[KontanKarite]

Oh yeah...

Mad stuff.

[KontanKarite]

Oh man. Militant kids. That kid was pretty wild with the BDUs.

And the fat lady talking smack about fat and lazy Christians... Priceless.

[CptSternn]

If you haven't seen the whole film Jesus Camp, its worth the watch.

Also, to touch on what Renatus said...

I don't think its as much 'be rich while completely negating those in need' as much as it is they make people think that those who are poor somehow deserve it, or aren't working hard enough for their God, therefore if God isn't going to help them, its not their responsibility.

The old 'puratin work ethic', taken to the utmost extreme - God helps those who help themselves, and if he doesn't, it's not our problem.

Their faith, as they sell it, tells them that God provides for the righteous. If you find yerself in need in todays society, their view is well, you must not be righteous enough, therefore, they want nothing to do with you.

It always makes my chuckle, even in this film, when they have their 'missionaries' that go out 'preaching'. Much like the mormons - they choose white, affluent, areas in which to 'testify'. You don't see these people heading to Africa, Asia, Eastern Europe, etc. to spread 'the good word'. They choose groups of people that already have the same beliefs, and mold them more into what they believe rather than find people who truly need a missionary, people who might have opposing views or conflicts with their own beliefs.

Like the proverbial 'preaching to the choir', they only go out 'preaching' to people that look like them, come from the same background, and are more likely to fall in line with their way of thinking.

Like cults do.

[HumanePain]

Also like cults: they want your money. These are the "slavering wolves" Jesus warned us about. They give the rest of us Christians a bad name.

[Valerius]

This is more of the exception than the norm. And Renatus, don't generalize. It makes you look like you suffer from negative ignorance.

Peace.

Do try and tell me I'm a blathering idiot while I'm working towards a Master's degree and eventually a Ph.D. while being a Christian myself.

[Crying_Crimson_Tears]

Originally Posted by HumanePain

Also like cults: they want your money. These are the "slavering wolves" Jesus warned us about. They give the rest of us Christians a bad name.

Yes they do. Makes me sad.

[Tha Duckman]

My Pop's a Mormon.


They're odd.

[Valerius]

I would've thought that your dad's a drunkard more than a mormon. xD

[ArtificialOne]

Well, regardless of what stern thinks..

http://www.zambian.com/bethel/orphan...tatistics.html

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=2682730

This site qoutes the abc article, but the discussion area is pretty good.
http://digg.com/politics/Conservativ...als_as_a_whole

http://www.arthurbrooks.net/statistics.html

Xtians give pretty freely. What I find amusing is the hypocrasy in the left claiming the hypocracy of xtians. Sterns a big one here who does that. They have an all out war against not only anyone who oppses them but anything xtian, especially xtian. Nevermind that most, 99.9% of terrorisms is from muslims <their religion is indistinguishable from their politics>, but, but.. that's not PC to point out that fact.. Because as they say.. "We live in a multicultural world". Yeah, that's worked out real well hasn't it. Apparently it's ok to prosecute xtianity and not truley militant religions that are actually killing hundreds of people a week... Nope it's xtians they go after.

I must point out that I'm not xtian. I just like to point out the hypocracy of it all. There's wackos on both sides, both sides have cults <even though one side, I'll let you guess which one> won't admit it.

We should set these kids off in the middle east, it'd be amusing if nothing else. BTW I thought the film was a bit long winded, just like the new Harry Potter movie... Geuss I'm not a "fan" so to speak..LOL

[Drake Dun]

I don't know much about the charity issue, but there's another issue coming out here that I have been thinking about a lot recently.

"Why do you atheists pick on Christians so much and never on Muslims or Jews?"

I have had this question put to me and I've seen it put to activist atheists like Dawkins and Hitchens. I think it actually has a very simple answer. The answer is that America (or England or wherever the conversation is usually happening) is a country in which Christianity is the predominant religion.

That has two effects. First, it means that I know Christianity, both in terms of its doctrine and in terms of the institution. So I have a basis to speak from. Also, the negative experiences I have with religion are almost always because of Christianity, just because that's most of the religion kicking around in my world. Second, it means that 90% of the time when I'm having one of these conversations, the person I am talking to is Christian. Obviously, it makes sense to attack Christianity and not, say, Islam under those circumstances.

I really think that's basically it. I wouldn't be surprised if there were other contributing factors, like the multiculturalism that Artificial One mentioned, or the "Jews have suffered, so they're off limits to criticism" effect still lingering in our society. But the essence of it is that when you've been raised in a Christian society and you're talking to Christians, naturally you are going to pick that religion as your representative example for attack.

So once for the record, and for my own part. I think Islam is even worse than Christianity, and I have mixed feelings about Judaism, but basically I distrust it and wish it would go away. I don't share Dawkin's dislike for all kinds of religious thinking without exception, but any system of belief bent on spiritual hegemony is a force to be opposed. That includes all forms of desert monotheism and probably includes Hinduism, and probably many forms of Buddhism.

Drake

[CptSternn]

A1 -

I by no means attack Christians. I am a Catholic, and proud of it. I only point out in America, and the UK, that prodestant Christians tend to mix politics into their religion, and then try and sell it as religion.

I'm not saying that there isn't a bias in the Catholic community or there isn't some politics in there as well, I'm just saying government officials in South America, Ireland, N. Ireland, and other parts of Europe that have predominately Catholic politicians don't cause the same strife as the prodestants.

I don't think this is because prodestants are bad, I know its because politicians from that side of the fence use beliefs only found in the prodestant religion to enage their followers to make then bend to their political beliefs.

When bush needs support, he invokes the name of God in his line of reasoning. The evangelicals eat it up and follow him blindly without question as they have been taught to believe anyone who invokes the name of God can't be lying to them.

Whenever a right-wing politican gets caught (i.e. like Vitters last week) acting immorally, he only has to be seen the next day with his local Preacher at church and they forgive him without question, even though he obviously was only there for the photo-op.

I mean, yer man was on FOX news that sunday defending the sanctify of marriage, with other republicans defending him as well. I think Leno put it best...

"A lot of conservatives on radio and TV ... are now claiming Republican Senator David Vitter is not a hypocrite for talking about the sanctity of marriage while cheating on his wife with prostitutes. So exactly what would you have to do -- have sex with the hooker while apologizing to your wife on TV?" --Jay Leno

It's not that I don't like Christians, I am one. What I don't like is people who use religion as a cudgel to attack people that disagree with their political policies making people believe to have a different opinion somehow makes you less of a Christian, and then as a shield to hide the real policies and beliefs they obviously have when they get caught out in immoral acts which - the same acts the they spend so much time in the media championing against.

The main preacher in Jesus Camp got busted doing meth with a male prostitute. The man who headed the committee to stop children from being exploited in congress got arrested for being a pedofile. These right-wing figures which elevated themselves above everyone and claimed to be so holy and judged so many people, were themselves doing exactly what they were telling people not to do. They used their power and influence to break the very laws they were trying to enforce, and in many cases, make more strict.

This is what I have a problem with, not Christians.

[ArtificialOne]

HA! VItter is another example of the corruption in LA. People will always make mistakes, wether they preach morals or not. Personally I don't care what they say as much as what they do. I don't like politicians who wnat to give my rights away and preach it all under multiculturalism and peace or whatnot.

I'd like to see the extreme left take on the muslims for a change. because of our laws and culture it's easy for them to pick on xtianity, becuase they know they won't get shot or blown up. If you criticize islam <like rushdi> you'll get a jihad on your butt and have fanatics all over the world trying to kill you. It's kind of the bully syndrome, you won't really pick a fight with someone who's going to kick your ass.

[Valerius]

Come to think of it, those moslems are pretty sensitive. It reminds me of that uproar caused by that Danish cartoonist when he drew up that caricature of their prophet. Then again, there are exceptions to the rule where not every moslem will come and try flying a plane into your house if you say Mohamed liked to fuck camels or drawing him with a bomb on the top of his head. It also brings to mind those moslems living in the UK living off of government funding while at the same time plotting and scheming the ultimate overthrow of the world as we see it today and replacing it with a singular totalitarian Islamic state where all non-moslems will be persecuted and beheaded.

I'm all well and good about criticism so long as it's constructive and straight to the point, but, I can guarantee you that 98% of these atheists who attack Christianity are wasting their time shadow-boxing with their interpretation of the religion and not the actual thing in itself.

Anyhoo, we need people to stir the pot every now and then, lest this world become a boring place to live in like a sparsely populated town situated in the middle of nowhere, and that list includes whiney leftists, fanatics of any religion, the insane, Scientologists and whatnot. lol

[PinstripesAndPithHelmets]

Originally Posted by Valerius

This is more of the exception than the norm. And Renatus, don't generalize. It makes you look like you suffer from negative ignorance.

Peace.

Do try and tell me I'm a blathering idiot while I'm working towards a Master's degree and eventually a Ph.D. while being a Christian myself.

You're a blathering idiot. The religious right is not an exception; it is a very large and powerful constituency. If you haven't noticed, they were powerful enough to put the Bush administration back in the White House for a second term, even when our country's morale was beginning to flag.

Moderate Christians may be more numerous than their zealous counterparts, but actions speak louder than words, and, by nature, moderate and liberal Christians generally don't try to proselytize "unbelievers." That's the domain of the conservative right, and they try their damndest to make good their boasts about preaching the word and fighting the heathen.

[ArtificialOne]

I love you valerius. Marry me! But, we'll have to do it in conneticut <gay marriage?>
LMAO!!! J/K I don't think Republigoth would like that too much though seeing as I'm already spoken for and all... lol!

OK, where was I... The cartoon were hilarious! I was in Aus at the time and none of the papers would reprint them! I had to see them online! I wish the muslim world would get upset over terrorists in the same way, maybe we'd be nicer towards them.

I hate scientology! Not becuase of what they practice, but they took a cool name and messed up a truer meaning of the word!! AH!!! I consider myself somewhat of a Scientologist, as I beleive that science is a better and more pure search for the true meaning of life and whatnot. No funny personality tests or probes and such... I call jihad on scientologists so I can reclaim the name!!!! DUrga durga jihad mohammed!!!! roflmao!!!

[Drake Dun]

Originally Posted by Valerius

I can guarantee you that 98% of these atheists who attack Christianity are wasting their time shadow-boxing with their interpretation of the religion and not the actual thing in itself.

Oh do elaborate.

Drake

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by ArtificialOne

People will always make mistakes, wether they preach morals or not.

This is true, but those who seem to champion the cause for the right-wing in America always seem to be the worst offenders of the same laws. Also, these are people who choose to live in the public eye, and to force their morals on others through the use of the position in society. They put themselves on that pedestal. While I will agree they will make mistakes, they of all people should know that certain things shouldn't be tolerated. After all, thats the exact message they are trying to teach the world.

If you make yourself a household name because of an issue, then it makes sense you, yourself should at least abide by the rules on that issue. Less society has the right to condemn and critisize you if you screw up on that issue.

Personally I don't care what they say as much as what they do. I don't like politicians who wnat to give my rights away and preach it all under multiculturalism and peace or whatnot.

Elaborate on this statement please. Of all the 'rights' that have been given up in America, I can't think of any that had to do with multiculturalism.

I'd like to see the extreme left take on the muslims for a change. because of our laws and culture it's easy for them to pick on xtianity, becuase they know they won't get shot or blown up.
If you criticize islam <like rushdi> you'll get a jihad on your butt and have fanatics all over the world trying to kill you. It's kind of the bully syndrome, you won't really pick a fight with someone who's going to kick your ass.

First, rusdie wrote a fictional book that directly attacked the Muslim religion. If someone wrote a book that directly attacked Christianity, I'm betting there would be another round of book burnings across America (they have churches in the south right now burning Harry Potter for promoting witchcraft you know).

One might also ask, why is it that Muslims are so devote to their religion that they do get incited to the point of rioting when someone attacks their religion, while Christians don't? I know lads who will fight if you critisize their soccer team. That being said, most Christians in America don't care enough to make it to church service once a week, much less get into a fight over their religion.

Does that mean Muslims are wrong for supporting their religious beliefs to the point where they take offense to people writing ficticious accounts to slander their God?

I always wonder if Chrisitianity required you to pray three times a day in a certain direction else be rejected from your religion, if you would see more people praying in America, or just a huge 90% drop in church attendance there.

It appears to me that most Christians attack Muslims because of their of devout level of committment. I think thats something that should be applauded IMHO. If you believe that strongly in something, then more power to you.

It sure beats the fat wastes-of-life sitting at home watching Jerry Springer or Who Wants To Marry a <fill-in-the-blank>, eating a McWhopper and making racial slurs against foriegn cultures which they have never taken the time to study.

[Valerius]

Originally Posted by PinstripesAndPithHelmets

You're a blathering idiot.

Opinion.

Originally Posted by PinstripesAndPithHelmets

The religious right is not an exception; it is a very large and powerful constituency.

Fact. But you misunderstood what I meant when I pointed out these misguided fools on video were the exception. If they were the majority then all unbelievers would be dead, much to my chagrin.

Originally Posted by PinstripesAndPithHelmets

If you haven't noticed, they were powerful enough to put the Bush administration back in the White House for a second term, even when our country's morale was beginning to flag.

So?

Originally Posted by PinstripesAndPithHelmets

Moderate Christians may be more numerous than their zealous counterparts, but actions speak louder than words,

Big falsity with regards to Christians in your case. Rarely do you see anyone praising charitable institutions such as Christian Giving, Canadian Council of Christian Charities, CFCA and the likes. If such were the case then you'd see word of these institutions more than you'd see leftist anti-religion propaganda.

Originally Posted by PinstripesAndPithHelmets

and, by nature, moderate and liberal Christians generally don't try to proselytize "unbelievers."

Yadda yadda... that's a given.

Originally Posted by PinstripesAndPithHelmets

That's the domain of the conservative right, and they try their damndest to make good their boasts about preaching the word and fighting the heathen.

Proof of this?

And Artificial One, yes, we will get married somewhere where it's legal. LOL!

Drake, I'll elaborate when I'm not pressed for time and when I'm done speaking with Pinstripes.

[Drake Dun]

Originally Posted by Valerius

Drake, I'll elaborate when I'm not pressed for time and when I'm done speaking with Pinstripes.

Good deal.

Drake

[ArtificialOne]

So, stern thinks it's ok for muslims to kill anyone who dissagrees with them. And once again he thinks all americans are fat bastards who eat mcdeaths... Hey you insinuated it you slimey bastard. Look at my picks on my myspace page. Do I look like a fat bastard eating a whopper? Didn't think so. And do everyone a favor and not try to wiggle out of your blatant attempt to stereo type americans as being bigoted fat bastards. If you have actually lived anywhere else than the US or Ireland maybe you'd see (especially the french and ausies), they have the same views on foriegners and traveling as do the US. Oh, and the french repeatedly top the list as most rude and arrogant country.

[Anomander]

This - this is just disturbing. This is people using their "hardline" beleifs to seep into their religion. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with Christianity or Jesus Christ, just as suicide bombings have very little to do with Islam to the best of my knowledge.

[PinstripesAndPithHelmets]

Valerius:

You asked to be called a blathering idiot. Being enrolled in a Master's program is no safeguard against stupidity, and proof of that is the fact that you tried to use it as such. Self-promotion in such a way is tacky.


As far as the folks promoting that video being the exception, I'm not convinced. I'm not saying they're the large majority of Christians, but they're certainly the most vocal.

When you ask

Originally Posted by Valerius

So?

in response to my raising the point that such conservative Christians are the backbone of Bush's diehard constituency, you overlook the points I was making about how actions speak louder than words.

When Bush was put back into the White House a second time, it ensured that there could be no progress made on a variety of issues, not least of which is the debate over stem cell research. Bush has staunchly vetoed any attempt to procure more funding for this brand of scientific research, and in doing so is PANDERING DIRECTLY TO THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT. The only opposition to increased funding for stem cell research comes from ignorant
people thumping the bible with a drumstick, concerned with the fact that scientists use potential life for research instead of letting it grow. This makes it seem like scientists actively abort fetuses for the express purpose of harvesting stem cells, when, in fact, the stem cells are provided by fetuses that have already been terminated, and get tossed into a medical waste bin regardless. Hand in hand is the abortion issue, which, if I'm not mistaken, has been outlawed entirely in the state of South Dakota. It's not just "leftist anti-religion propoganda." At least, it's not to the teenage girl in South Dakota, who needs an abortion because of one drunken night at a high school party.

Actions speak louder than words, and these actions drastically outweigh any charitable actions on behalf of more moderate Christian groups, because they press hot buttons and directly impinge on the rights of our citizens.

When you ask

Originally Posted by Valerius

Proof of this?

in response to my assertion that the Conservative Christian Right actively seeks to proselytize, I'll ask you: Have you ever been accosted by a Jehova's Witness, mentioned evolution in front of a conservative Catholic or Seventh Day Adventist, or spoken to a Mormon about their beliefs?

I have, and I live in a supposedly liberal portion of the country. Set foot outside the cities in New York, and you're in a veritable soup of Conservative religious fervor. Even within the cities, in some cases. The Jehova's witnesses we've all had to deal with, and can safely say are generally little more than an annoyance, but still attempt to force their religion upon others at point of handbill. The Mormons have supplanted Catholics as the "spread the word" branch of Christianity, by actively having their young men travel to the far reaches of the globe and set up missions preaching their particular brand of religion. And all while wearing itchy hair shirts! Catholics, however, are no slouches in the religious fervor department. Speaking as a Catholic myself, I find it unsettling that my
coreligionists are attempting to have Intelligent Design inserted into science curriculum as an alternate theory of creation.

If you're looking for proof in the form of some sort of government study, I can't provide that. Just opening your eyes should be proof enough.

And before anyone asks, no, I do not go to church. I find the experience wooden and alienating. Seeing people that, during the week, would more likely step on your throat than give you a hand up is insulting to my intelligence, and to God's, if they think they can fool him into believing that they're good people. I much prefer the air of sanctity that I get from the empty cathedrals in town when mass is not in session. I rarely visit, but I do like to stop in when I have time.

[Drake Dun]

Originally Posted by ArtificialOne

So, stern thinks it's ok for muslims to kill anyone who dissagrees with them.

Really, Sternn. Pretending for a minute that Christianity actually has anything to do with how we should evaluate Islam, comparing fundies torching Harry Potter to what happened with the Satanic Verses is sufficiently disingenuous to badly damage my ability to take you seriously. A better analogy would be this:

A clergyman with a prominent post at the White House appears on CNN to put a hit out on Dan Brown for writing the Da Vinci Code. Christians firebomb enough Barnes and Nobles and B. Dalton's that most bookstores pull the title from their shelves, with the ones daring to carry it keeping it under the counter. It is banned in a dozen countries. Many people are killed in assorted riots and bombings. Several translators of the book suffer attempts on their lives - one successful.

It takes a lot to get me to defend Christians, but pretending that the Christian world isn't any better than the Islamic world on this stuff is just about enough to do it. Even with the recent evangelical madness, the above scenario is almost impossible to imagine. Face it. The Islamic world is driven to paroxysms of fanaticism, hatred and bloodlust by their bilious religion. Incidents like the Rushdie thing and the whole Danish cartoon episode make it very clear that the West's crede, which I support, of tolerance and multiculturalism can be turned into a weapon against everything that is best about the people who espouse that ethic.

Tolerance and liberalism is a two-way street, and there's a difference between reaching out, and rolling over. The kind of people who do this shit must be opposed - by force if necessary.

Down with the Jealous God and his slavering mad religions.

Drake