Arizona Governor signs immigration bill

[Alan]

Trying to stop immigration in a globalized world is both useless and stupid. It's that simple. You can't solve the immigration problem because there is no solution.

[CptSternn]

+1 Solumina

Ben -

You say 70% support the bill - yet Hispanic groups are out in the hundreds of thousands rallying against this bill, and they make up 66% of the states population. I think the numbers you are using are the same ones the governor there is using - excluding illegals in the people who support the bill. The reality is in the polls they only ring home owners with phones who answer - which excludes a large chunk of hispanic households, illegal or otherwise.

More importantly, this is a red herring. Every state has similar problems with jobs crime, schools, etc. Saying its Mexicans who are causing all the problems is putting up an easy target to focus the publics anger against, all the while ignoring the real issues and solutions. It's easy to blame all of your countries problems on one group of people, ask hitler. People love to rally together against a common enemy, it is naturally ingrained into all humans, and politicians love to use it when they need votes. Look at 9/11 and its correlation to Iraq.

As Solumina and I stated, the economy will collapse if they were able to successfully remove the illegals. Illegals also pay lots of tax, which I outlined earlier, meaning the local governments would also collapse because their own coffers would shrink if this law is successful. They know this, and they know either it will not be successful or are betting against it knowing the Federal government will strike it down, letting them portray themselves as heros who were stopped by a liberal Federal government, while the reality is they are nothing more than charlatans feeding off the ignorance of the masses.

If crime wasn't higher in places like Maryland, DC, Detroit, Illinois and schools were not overcrowded in the same places, and those places did not have high unemployment then I might be inclined to see your views. But many parts of the country have the same issues, even worse in many cases, and they have no illegal immigrants to account for this, so singling out one group and pointing the finger at them is not based in statistics and science, but simple slander and racism.

One final thought, you can't just blame companies that hire illegals either. Think about it on a global scale. Why do American companies hire illegals? Because they cannot find Americans who will work the long hours of back breaking labour for minimum wage and no benefits. Why then do American companies not raise wages and offer more benefits? Because then they cannot compete with companies who outsource to India and China.

It is not just companies hiring illegals that are causing this issue, its happening because people want more crap at cheaper prices. Wal-Mart started this trend and it is only snowballing. Thats the way pure capitalism works. Unlike say here in Ireland where there are laws and VAT and VRT to regulate imports to protect Irish workers, America is a purely capitalistic country that does not limit trade or tax imports and importers to keep their product costs in line with the local market. If left unchecked, this is the outcome.

It's much easier to point the finger at a group of minority people with little to no rights than it is to accept that the society you live in and the laws which are setup to protect the wealth of a few are failing the masses miserably.

[Ben Lahnger]

I'm not going to debate all that smoke screen. It's easy to present reasons not to do anything, but either you enforce laws or you don't.

And the people of Arizona want the law enforced. The poll shouldn't include illegal aliens (some of the ones you said don't have a phone.) They're not legal citizens nor voters, so their opinions should NOT be reflected in the poll. I don't believe the poll is inaccurate. In fact, it matches up pretty well with the information I heard on MSNBC the other day ... that a third of Arizona's voting population is hispanic.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Ben Lahnger

I'm not going to debate all that smoke screen. It's easy to present reasons not to do anything, but either you enforce laws or you don't.

And the people of Arizona want the law enforced. The poll shouldn't include illegal aliens (some of the ones you said don't have a phone.) They're not legal citizens nor voters, so their opinions should NOT be reflected in the poll. I don't believe the poll is inaccurate. In fact, it matches up pretty well with the information I heard on MSNBC the other day ... that a third of Arizona's voting population is hispanic.

Didn't the people of California want Prop 8 enforced? Just because the majority votes to oppress the minority, doesn't make it right or constitutional.

[vindicatedxjin]

This is very true.

[CptSternn]

Tis why unbridled democracy is a failed idea. Democracy can mean three wolves and a sheep voting on whats for dinner.

[Ben Lahnger]

There is no minority here. The illegal aliens are not legallly entitled to be represented in the discussion of making and enforcing law, because they are illegal. So they can't be considered the minority ... they don't get to vote, they don't get to have representative government. That's the case under the preexisting Federal law.

Also, a new poll I just saw on MSNBC says 51% of Americans nationwide support the Arizona law.

Again, why isn't there more public support for any kind of amnesty program? That's where the fix to this lies.

[vindicatedxjin]

Check this out guyz http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_558731.html


Sad.

[Ben Lahnger]

Arizona lawmakers modify immigration law

Legislators ban race from being used by police as a factor to identify illegal immigrants and require scrutiny only of people who police stop, detain or arrest.

SOURCE

The Arizona legislature late Thursday narrowed a controversial immigration law in response to allegations that the measure legalized racial profiling and forced police to determine the immigration status of people they encountered on the streets.

The initial law, signed by Gov. Jan Brewer last week, required police to determine someone's immigration status if officers formed a reasonable suspicion about their legality based during any "lawful contact." That led to suggestions by some legal experts that police would be obligated to scrutinize even people who simply asked for directions. A Phoenix police officer who patrols an area near a school sued, contending that it would require him to ask children he encounters during the day if they are in the country legally.

Lawmakers Thursday night changed the language to require scrutiny only of people who police stop, detain or arrest. They also changed a section of the bill that barred officers from "solely" using race as grounds for suspecting someone is in the country illegally; opponents noted that would allow race to be a factor. The legislators removed the word "solely" to bar race from being used at all by officers enforcing the law.


"It absolutely clarifies what the intent was," said Paul Senseman, a spokesman for Brewer, who supported the changes and is expected to sign them into law. "It's undeniable now that this bill will not lead to racial profiling."

More at the SOURCE link above.

It's important to note that opponents (as listed further on in the article) think the changes don't go far enough.

[TheAntiCancer]

You know what would solve the entire problem? (and I will say I am in favor of this bill) If the governmetn would step up and take it upon themselfs to fix the problem. The easiest way to accomplish this would to be to simply pass a bill to fix these problems.

1. Make it easier to become a citizen or a leagal worker of the US (meaning that they will pay income tax, such as a school visa or a work visa but the process of obtaning it would be much shorter as in a week or so)

2. O thats right there isnt a 2nd thing to fix the first did just that. But the govnerment and the people of the US are far too ignorant to see that this would work.

And as far as the Illegal immagrants draning the economy, if you say that they are not then you need to look around you, and if you do not live here then please dont believe everything you read. If you want some proof look at Grady hospitial in Atlanta GA. Or Athens Regioal in Athens GA. It does cause a problem, and sales tax doesnt cover the entire loss we are aquiring form them.

Now I will say this, I am in no way opposed to immagration to this country, that is what we were built on, everyone in the US is a immagrant or a decendant of a immagrant. So it needs to be fair to all to come here and work for what they call the "American Dream". But I do believe that they need to pay income tax or we need to go to a fair tax system.

[Beneath the Shadows]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

You say 70% support the bill - yet Hispanic groups are out in the hundreds of thousands rallying against this bill, and they make up 66% of the states population. I think the numbers you are using are the same ones the governor there is using - excluding illegals in the people who support the bill. The reality is in the polls they only ring home owners with phones who answer - which excludes a large chunk of hispanic households, illegal or otherwise.

That's funny, because according to the U.S. Census Bureau, non-Hispanic whites made up 58.4%.non-Hispanic whites made up 58.4%. 66 plus 58.4 equals over 100, so it seems you're wrong. Unless you're going to say that the Census Bureau is in error?

[d0p3y]

My parents brought me to the united states when i was 9, my mother was 7 months pregnant with my little sister , my mother and I were separated from my father at the time of crossing the border beacause soposly my mother and I were sopose to have crossed more "confortably" well things didnt go as well my dad ended up getting to gettin to the destination first. My mother and I had to walk 10 hours in the Night to get to the point were we would get picked up by a truck that took us to where we had to go........


P.S This isnt even Half of the suffering we had to go through, I spared you about 80% of the gory details.

P.S.S Sorry for my bad grammar :P

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by Beneath the Shadows

That's funny, because according to the U.S. Census Bureau, non-Hispanic whites made up 58.4%.non-Hispanic whites made up 58.4%. 66 plus 58.4 equals over 100, so it seems you're wrong. Unless you're going to say that the Census Bureau is in error?

There have been a few articles posted here, even this one as well, that mention that illegals do not participate in census counts due. This is idea is even more reinforced now with this new law in place.

[CptSternn]

This law has become big news here in Ireland as well. A bit of Googling turned up some interesting facts.

First, it is a good thing McCain wasn't elected. He swore during his campaign he wanted to make all illegals legal, and offer them a 'path to citizenship'. Today, he is on the news asking the President to use the Army to force illegals out of the country. That doesn't sound much like a path to citizenship to me.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/...f_undocum.html

This is also accompanied by an article I found here:

http://www.newamerica.net/publicatio...ure_irish_5140

There are many like this, which really make you think. Many of the right wing republicans in America are calling for militarizing the border, having police check papers, immediate deportation of illegals.

At the same time some of the exact same politicians are saying they should make all the 50,000 Irish, and tens of thousands of Scottish, Welsh, British, Australian, and other European nationals who are illegal, legal.

It seems like the only people they want out are the brown skinned among us.

Aside from that, this law in Arizona is being pushed by other right-leaning states. I wonder when the first Irish (or other white illegals) get deported will they realize it's not just Mexicans they are going after, and that these laws are directly effecting ties internationally with other countries as well.

Mexico has already stood up and blasted the law, but wait until a person from the UK, Ireland, Australia, or somewhere else gets deported - is America willing to treat those countries in the same manner? If not, does that not create a huge double standard based on ethnicity and skin colour?

I guess we have to wait and see.

[Ben Lahnger]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

First, it is a good thing McCain wasn't elected. He swore during his campaign he wanted to make all illegals legal, and offer them a 'path to citizenship'. Today, he is on the news asking the President to use the Army to force illegals out of the country. That doesn't sound much like a path to citizenship to me.

First, McCain was elected ... he's been Arizona's Senator for some time and won many re-election campaigns. Oh, you mean as President? Ah, well ... the minute the economy went south and he stood there sputtering his campaign was shot. Everybody here thought that campaign was about the brothers and sisters coming out to elect the first President of color. While there was some of that, a lot of it was simply Americans seeing that their financial house was falling apart and only one of the four people running (including VP candidates) had his shit together.

Second, he is running again for re-election as Senator this fall. And as most career politicians running for re-election are finding, there's a great anti-incumbent movement sweeping the country. So he's reversed himself on a great many positions in an extremely desperate attempt to curry favor with the conservative right when he'd always run as a moderate before. For instance, during his run for the Presidency he asserted he would work vigorously to get the military's "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy repealed, but less that 2 years later as he finds himself sinking in the voter opinion polls, he's come out as adamantly opposed to changing the policy in any way.

So it's no surprise to anyone that he's completely contradicted himself on many positions in this frantic last-ditch effort to save his job (which I predict he will fail at.)

Regarding the rest of this, the law is likely unconstitutional ... but it will take time for the process to deal with it.

And here are two headlines of note:

PHOENIX May 28, 2010
DOJ, Arizona Officials Meet Over Immigration Law

Justice Department officials told Arizona's attorney general and aides to the governor Friday that the federal government has serious reservations about the state's new immigration law.

Attorney General Terry Goddard said he urged them not to sue. "I told them we need solutions from Washington, not more lawsuits," the Democrat said.

The Justice Department initiated separate meetings by phone and face-to-face in Phoenix with Goddard and aides to Republican Gov. Jan Brewer to reach out to Arizona's leaders and elicit information from state officials regarding the Obama administration's concerns about the new law.

The strong message that the Justice Department representatives delivered at the private meetings — first with Goddard, then with Brewer's staff — left little doubt that the Obama administration is prepared to go to court if necessary in a bid to block the new law, which takes effect July 29.

Goddard said he noted that five privately filed lawsuits already are pending in federal court to challenge the law.

"Every possible argument is being briefed," Goddard said.

Key provisions of the sweeping law include a requirement that police enforcing any other law question people about their immigration status if there is "reasonable suspicion" that the people are in the country illegally. It also makes it a state crime to be in the country illegally.

Arizona has an estimated 460,000 illegal immigrants, and the law's supporters contend it will save taxpayer money and reduce crime by pressuring illegal immigrants to "self-deport."

Federal officials and other critics fear the state law could lead to widespread racial profiling.

Goddard said it would be wrong to assume that Arizona law enforcement officers would not act in a fair and highly professional manner."

Goddard vowed to defend the law in court.

(more at link above)

But it's important to note that Goddard is running against Brewer for Governor of Arizona and has made statements in campaign appearances stating he has concerns about the law (apparently trying to appeal to the Hispanic voter population) which probably led to THIS:

May 29, 2010
Ariz gov. bypasses attorney general on immigration lawsuits

Gov. Jan Brewer of Arizona has bypassed Attorney General Terry Goddard and will rely on other lawyers to defend the state against lawsuits challenging its controversial law targeting illegal immigration, according to a statement.

The legislature gave Brewer the power to hire outside counsel "because of its lack of confidence in the Attorney General's willingness to vigorously defend" the law, she said in the statement.

Her statement referred to Goddard's opposition to the new immigration law, which lets police officers check the residency status of anyone who is being investigated for a crime or possible legal infraction if there is reasonable suspicion the person is in the United States illegally.

(more at link above)

So ... expect more twists and turns as both the civil lawsuits and the apparently inevitable Federal lawsuit proceed.

[ape descendant]

Unless I read it incorrectly, its still racist and shitty.

[CptSternn]

[Deadmanwalking_05]

Keep Going Sternn and crew you're doing more damage to yourselves than I ever could.

[Shadowagony]

It's very simple, actually. They are called "illegals" for a reason. They are crossing the border and trying to live here without going through the proper process that so many others go through to get here legally, therefore, they are here illegally. Their coming here without doing so makes it a violation of the law, and that violation should be dealt with. The Federal Government won't do its job, so the state of Arizona has stepped up and did the job itself. If there wasn't so many people ignoring the laws of the country and coming here illegally then Arizona wouldn't have to pass these laws. What are they supposed to do, just lie down and let waves and waves of illegals continue to pour over the borders? Nobody wants to respect the border, so Arizona is making them respect the border. I have lived in Phoenix, and unless you live there yourself and see how things really are, you really don't understand. It is not a racial thing. Hispanic isn't even a race, it's an ethnicity. It is about doing something to protect the borders of a sovereign nation. If it was illegals from any other country, including western countries, then it would be just as necessary. For those who cry "racism" as a knee-jerk reaction to anything that even remotely seems to inconvenience a minority group or any other social group, any and every law on the books can be used in a racist way, so should every single law in this counrty be repealed because it has the potential to lead to racism? Racists are going to fuck people over no matter what laws are in existence, even if all of the laws are minority-friendly. I'd rather have a secure border that turns away those trying to enter without going through the proper process. If I want to immigrate to another country, then I have to go through the proper process, so why should it be any different for anyone trying to immigrate to my country? Better yet, try going to Mexico and living there illegally, yourself. See how that turns out. There are some countries that immediately detain you and even shoot you on sight if you enter their territory without proper permission from the sovereign government. I'm not advocating such a thing, but it underscores the seriousness of respecting national borders. If people actually respected the nation's borders, then Arizona wouldn't need to pass laws like this. As for this law, it was inevitable. Everybody draws the line somewhere.

[Shadowagony]

Oh, by the way, before anybody labels me an ignorant racist, an inconsiderate ass, or something else - I'm just looking at it realistically. In a perfect world, we wouldn't have any borders and anybody would be able to go anywhere to make a decent life for themself. However, the reality of the times that we live in is that we live in nation states with political borders that have laws to enforce said borders. In order to live in another nation state, you must follow the process that they set out to live and work there according to said laws. Refusing to do so and coming to that nation state anyways is a violation of said laws and grounds for action by the ones who own and control said nation state. So when this happens and said nation state starts taking steps to curb such a thing, then said nation state is acting within their authority and rights as a sovereign nation to enforce said laws.

I don't think that it is racist or insensitive to require people to go through the proper process to live and work here, especially considering the fact that you and I would have to go through the proper process to live and work in any other country, ourselves. I'm all for people from other countries coming to live in my country and make a better life for themself. I would just appreciate it if people actually went through the proper process and respected my country's border. I'm pretty sure that the millions of immigrants who successfully went through the process themselves would appreciate that, too.

[CptSternn]

Yet another silly argument posted here matching the ones above. Do you not see how illogical that way of thinking is?

For example, you blame illegals for coming to America for work. The big issue which you seem to gloss over and not address, like the people above have done, is that there is work there and people will hire illegals without thinking twice.

Much like the drug war, there will always be a drug war as long as millions of Americans continue to buy drugs. Blaming Mexicans for providing the drugs Americans want is a cop out, and is shifting the blame.

Blaming Mexicans for working the jobs Americans create and hire them for is again shifting the blame and responsibility.

You want to stop drug cartels? Go after more Americans who buy them. Why not follow in the footsteps of China or Saudi Arabia and just execute anyone caught with drugs? I bet the rate of drug use will drop in America then, and the 'drug war' will go away.

Want to stop Mexicans from coming to America? Put people in prison for 10-20 years if they hire an illegal, or provide them shelter in a property they own. See how long it takes before jobs and housing for illegals dry up and the influx of 'illegals' goes away.

But no one is suggesting that. Americans are happy paying illegals and giving them a place to live, provided they pay for it. Until you go after the root cause, you are just attacking the leaves of a much larger tree.

The fact no one is suggesting that the Americans should be the ones held responsible for their own misdeeds is yet another reason this argument is quite racist.

More importantly, per a previous article CBS news did a big piece on this (links in the previous article) which detailed that 2/3rds of all large farming industries in America are almost completely staffed by illegals. The California growing industry (lettuce, grapes, etc.) and the Florida growing industry (oranges) is comprised of large chunks of illegals. It is a well known and documented fact. Thats why the governments there have not passed any legislation like the one in Arizona, as without the illegals, both industries would collapse. Both industries are the life blood of both states. Also it is good to note that California has the largest economy in America and Florida is up there in the top 5 as well, meaning if those industries went under, America itself would be in for a huge reality check since neither state would be able to survive without those industries.

It's looks good for politicians on the news to call for action against illegals, but the reality is America itself economically is proped up by the very people it would be targeting, and the government knows this. Anyone arguing for harsher legislation is just blowing smoke, knowing it will not pass Federal law, in efforts to get the dim and stupid to jump on board something they see as a way to get political backing for re-election.

Right wing politicians know there is no way any real immigration reform will happen, and if it does happen it won't be the way they are saying. Amnesty is a much more realistic approach as without it Americas economy will collapse. I mean, already industries in America are finding that cheap imports are killing American industries. South America can grow produce at much lower levels offering the same product for less. If America is force to pay market value for labour in these areas, the industries will go the way of the US auto industry and US steel industry - everything will be imported, the few Americans who are employed will be laid off, and the states will lose billions in taxes.

But don't take my word for it - Google it. This is a near universal conclusion that has been out there since McCain lost the election, as at the time even he used this very premise as a talking point.

[Deadmanwalking_05]

Same old same old right Sternn "Blame America"

[Still Jack]

Wrong. Blame people like you that make America ( and loads of other countries ) horrible for other people .

[Methadrine]

That's why we call them/it "The United Snakes".

[Joker_in_the_Pack]

Originally Posted by Methadrine

That's why we call them/it "The United Snakes". (on a plane)

derbyderbydo