Blair: Western values must triumph over radical Islam

[CptSternn]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/...ies&eref=yahoo

LOS ANGELES, California (CNN) -- The conflict in the Middle East, as well as others involving Muslim extremists, revolve around "modernization within Islam" and whether the Western system of values can "beat theirs," British Prime Minister Tony Blair said in a speech Tuesday.

Speaking to the Los Angeles World Affairs Council, Blair went on to say that the struggle was between moderate, benign values versus the hatred and intolerance of fundamentalism.

"Even the issue of Israel is just part of the same wider struggle for the soul of the region," Blair said. "If we recognize this struggle for what it truly is, we would be at least along the first steps of the path to winning it. But I fear a vast part of Western opinion is not remotely near this yet."

He added, "Whatever the outward manifestation at any one time -- in Lebanon, in Gaza, in Iraq, and add to that in Afghanistan, in Kashmir, in a host of other nations, including now some in Africa -- this everywhere is a global fight about global values.

"It's about modernization within Islam and out of it. It's about whether our value system can be shown to be sufficiently robust, true, principled and appealing that it beats theirs."

The strategy behind Islamist extremism, Blair said, is based "on a presumed sense of grievance that can motivate people to divide against each other. Our answer has to be a set of values strong enough to unite people with each other.

"And this is not just about security or military tactics -- it is about hearts and minds. It's about inspiring people, persuading them, showing them what our values at their best stand for. And just to state it in these terms underlines how much we have to do."

Many Westerners wonder if the United States and Europe pay too high a price for supporting Israel, and Blair said he can understand why many Muslims condemn that alliance. But "absent from so much of the coverage is any understanding of the Israeli predicament."

The prime minister said he "wants the war (between Israel and Hezbollah) to stop now" and that the loss of civilian life in Lebanon is "unacceptable." But he did not back down from his support for Israel.

The Jewish state, he said, has been targeted by Hamas and Hezbollah, which have captured Israeli soldiers, provoking Israel's response. Re-energizing the peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians will be "fundamental" to defusing the conflict.

Blair also took aim at Iran and Syria, which back Hezbollah financially.

"We need to make it clear to Syria and Iran that there is a choice: Come into the international community and play by the same rules as the rest of us, or be confronted.

"Their support of terrorism, their deliberate export of instability, their desire to see wrecked the democratic prospects in Iraq is utterly unjustifiable, dangerous and wrong. If they keep raising the stakes, they will find that they have miscalculated."

[CptSternn]

I myself saw this on the news and was disturbed. I mean, I said this was what they were doing, but it's the first time blair or the bush admin or its allys have been so blunt.

As the article states, and blair said, the Iraq war is over ideals, and that western values need to 'beat theirs'.

I find that offensive, that a nation would insinuate that its system of values is better than another countries, in turn saying the people there must be less worth than their people because of their values, which are not 'western' values.

In other words, if you don't like big business running your country, don't like McDonalds on every corner next to Starbucks, and don't like rigged elections, voter fraud, retina scans, sneak-n-peak home searches, dentions without access to a lawyer, well then, your in line for an invasion as blair claims its now a war on a global scale (does that mean world war) and that 'western values' is what everyone is fighting over.

[Budweiser69]

Why are all the threads in this section posted exclusively by you? And its like you only argue with yourself in them. Its actually very pathetic. You need to get a life. I mean offline.

[Don't Look Behind You]

Originally Posted by Budweiser69

Why are all the threads in this section posted exclusively by you? And its like you only argue with yourself in them. Its actually very pathetic. You need to get a life. I mean offline.

If a person wants to express his opinion then why shouldn't he? That's what these forums are for.

If he is interested in politics then he should post away, this is, after all, the politics thread. It's not his fault that the rest here don't seem to care much about what's going on in the world.

Maybe you should get a life yourself and stop worying about other people's lives.

This is not my business either, actually, but I found your post disturbing and, indeed, "pathetic".

[Godslayer Jillian]

Don't Look Behind You, I actually agree with Budweiser.
Once I used to post every now and then on the politics thread, before people started leaving.
Cpt Sternn has always been a nuissance.
I have no quarrel with him, but although he gives the data, his view on it lacks strenght. Except for the article in itself, many times that he gives "facts", they're erroneous.
But most important of all, he has confessed he still creeps around with the sole intent of bothering.
Sometimes I agree with Sternn's ideas, sometimes I don't, like any other human.
But Sternn cannot be considered a part of Gnet. He does not care about the others here, and is not even expressing his oppinion more than he only wants to appear smart. His sole existence here is whine about America and try to contradict Loy.
So, yeah, it's pretty pathetic.

[CptSternn]

Buidweiser69? What? Was NASCARBLOWJOB taken as a handle already? Couldn't you just call yerself RickyBobbyJoe Jr. or is that too close to your real name there?

Jillian -

You have never posted anything worthwhile. But glad you dislike my posts. Nothing like having a self-professed teenaged satanist from texas dislike your posts on politics.

Glad to know no matter how much you hate them, you have taken the time to read them at least. Continually.

[Don't Look Behind You]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

I have no quarrel with him, but although he gives the data, his view on it lacks strenght.

well please, feel free to give your own oppinions, which will of course be much stronger and deeper.

I don't see you doing that.

I don't either, but that's becuase I hardly know enough to have a completely new and exciting view with smashing arguments.

I don't see there any reasons to insult Sternn (?). If he is sticking around here only to annoy, he hasn't been desturbing. Let him do his thing and stop trying to appear oh so cool by insulting other people. It doesn't make anyone look cool or more of a "goth god" as people here tend to call you.

[Godslayer Jillian]

I never autodenominated myself as a goth god. I'm nothing more than an ordinary, every day life god, so don't attack me with that.
I never insulted Sternn, but what is the point of being in a forum if he only posts for his only own sake?
As to give oppinions to disclaim Sternn's oppinions, that's seems to be Loy's job.
You can see an example of that in the Smoking thread. (fairly enough, I still agree with Sternn on his position of smoking.)

[Don't Look Behind You]

I actually don't want to continue this subject, but doesn't everyone post for their own sake? Why else would all these people be here...to help the rest of the world with their posts? I doubt it.
I wouldn't take internet communities so seriously. Everyone does their own thing and as long as it doesn't bother you personaly, please, just leave it be.

[Godslayer Jillian]

While you're here, you speak with other people, don't you?
Sternn doesn't.
It's as simple as that.

[Don't Look Behind You]

hey, I don't know him, so I don't know what to really say in his defence, but I think it's his affair if his interests are limited to politics.

So you are just missing him talking to you? Does it offend you that someone doesn't show interest in you? And that makes them pathetic, right?

...

It does get interesting, though, when he starts calling you "self-professed teenaged satanist from texas".

[CptSternn]

I think I talk enough. I mean, I did start this thread, and we are getting off topic.

My whole point to this thread, which isn't a bush-bashing thread, is to point out the mentality that blair (and yes, bush) has been using - a mentality they continually claim they are NOT using, but then just last week gave a speech on the fact they are doing exactly what they claim not to be doing.

On more than one occasion blair has said 'we are not trying to force western values on a different culture' AND 'we are not trying to change Muslim culture' (yes, I'm paraphrasing here).

Then, at a meeting of his supporters he states blatently 'we are in a battle of cultures, trying to change the Arabic world and force them to accept western ideals and principles'.

Bascially, the irradication of another culture, for the simple reason it's different and doesn't allow itself to be pushed around by big business, special interest groups, and other factors which plague the 'western' culture.

Same with Cuba. I've visited Cuba. Tis a brilliant place to holiday. All over Europe, you can get cheap vaction deals to some of the most beuatiful beaches in the world. Americans would never know this, as their government says its off limits. Anyone who has visited there can tell you how beautiful it is. But, due to 'western ideals' there is this big pissing contest because 'western' companies can't do business in a 'western' way there. There are hotels, resorts, and more - paralleling that of any Florida or Californian beach city throughout Cuba, but the way it's portrayed on us television is some kind of back-woods communist regime that everyone is poor, angy, and living in a shack.

Why? Because they 'won't adopt western ideals'.

Cuba, like many Middle-eastern nations don't except western ideals. Now they find reasons to invade these nations, to plunder the resources instead of using big business to screw the local people out of their resources - then claim its not plundering, its installing 'western values' to the region.

By western values they mean big business comes in and takes over along with a beurocracy to work hand in hand with big business and control every persons life.

The fact that the middle east these functions are already preformed by their religion means that its big business/western culture vs. current status quo/Muslim religion.

An attack on the culture is an attack on the religion. And it now is being done in the name of money, nothing more.

And blair, has now officially on record said as much, not that anyone is paying attention anymore.

This, as blair says, is the reason for fighting in Iraq, Palestein, and Lebanon. Not 'terrorists', not 'democracy', not 'freedom', not 'wmds', not anything other than 'culture' - which we know to be nothing more than pure, unadulterated, greed-laden, capitolism.

[marred]

Yeah, I remember when I used to get worked up over this stuff too. My main issue was the drug war though, that one is just.... *cough* Anyway, I noticed one important thing; No one cares, and those who do, already agree with you, and thus your "preaching to the choir". Its hard to care anymore when you start telling people how 780,000 people are arrested every year for marijuana related offenses, and all they say is "Oh well, not my life." The "War On Terror" (they could at least come up with an original name IMO) is about the same, execpt that now it's unpatriotic to disagree with it, instead of just being labled a "Pot Head" Unless someone with a little bit of common sense comes into power, tring to change anything will forever be pointless. I've seen more evidence that the drug war isn't working everywhere; TV, internet, even the radio. Only those in power don't listen. You see, they don't want to be percieved as unpatriotic.... or a pot head.... (not to mention the endless amounts of money to be made. Iraq has to be one of the last few untapped markets for a good 'ole Mickey D's )

[Godslayer Jillian]

It seems Don't Look Behind You is just trying to make her point by implying a resentful nature in me: that's a very desperate method.
I should have just asked you, Sternn:
Seriously, what is the point of posting on a site you would rather not be a part of?

[Don't Look Behind You]

Jillian, I am not trying to do anything, and I am most certainly not making use of any desperate methods.
Why do you keep pushing on the same argument: being part of this site. He's here, he's part of it. Basta.

And now i would very much like to leave this subject, since it is going nowhere anyway.

So do let me ignore you.

...............

As to the above, I infact have always had the impresion that politics is genuenly only about doing the one thing that you proclaim to not be doing.

As to clash of cultures and western values...it's all just funny isn't it? I don't even start talking about this subject anymore, I just laugh sadly and move on.

That's probably why I hardly end up posting anything here.

[CptSternn]

Marred -

Good point. The 'war against drugs' bears many similarities to the 'war on terror'. And 'ideals' is the bottom line for many of their arguments as well, although they try to sell it as a health issue.

Jill -

Don't want to be a part of what? What exactly are you babbling about now? I don't want to be a part of is a redneck agenda.

</Green Day Voice>

Many of the righ wing-nuts who have taken over the politico disccussion groups in the past 2 years are what I call tourists. People who have nothing to do with the scene, don't frequent any g/i events, and don't even like the music - but for some reason come here to post their pro-bush views to a group of people who if you met in real life, would not be hanging together. I should ask you why a self professed satanist is pro-bush. Thats the question that lingers.

Don't Look -

Your correct. Most politicians in the 'western culture' make it a point to say one thing and do another. Thats the main point of my posting here. Tis sad its true, but is another facet of 'western culture' that they can't understand why people fight against.

Also, never get discouraged and NOT post because of everyone elses opinion. Fight the power!

[Godslayer Jillian]

I'm not pro-Bush. It's just that when you post almost exclusively for anti-Bush threads, you show a very one-dimensional personality.

[Don't Look Behind You]

one can't be pro-Bush and anti-Bush at the same time.

[Godslayer Jillian]

No, one-dimensional means that there are no more characteristics to him. Is he a cat person or a dog person? Is he a literature savant? What is his position in the meaning of life?
His comments are restricted to one specific subject.

[Binkie]

Originally Posted by Don't Look Behind You

I don't see there any reasons to insult Sternn (?).

Aside from the fact that he makes 9/11 jokes, calls Americans in general (of which he is one by dual citizenship); fat, stupid, and ugly, was caught lying about serving in the US army and about where he attended high school (as part of his arguement about personal experience), has been found to have manipulated information and lied about factual information regarding news stories over two dozen times, was originally banned from this board for threatening to slit another members throat (when ownership changed he got back in via a glitch), and posted pictures of dead American soldiers in a sick and twisted attempt at "humor" (which in reality was a sad and demented attempt to anger other members).

He can not operate properly in debates. He's since been gagged from posted in the politics sections of other goth sites (Goth.net notably) because he was found to not only be lying about personal experience and about factual information, but he could not debate without insulting others.

If he is sticking around here only to annoy, he hasn't been desturbing.

No offense, but being here for under two months doesn't give you much insight into who Sternn is or how he spreads propaganda via this message board. I can produce links on end to the threads and point out where he has been proven to be lying and mainpulative of information over two dozen times about facts. He is indeed a troll who has explicitly insulted the members of this board and stated that his aim was only to annoy all of them. It's a giant "gimme attention" gimmick.

[Don't Look Behind You]

Jillian, talking about the meaning of life is what people take to when they have nothing better to discuss ( I have anumber of experinces on this account). And it is quite clear that he is no "literature savant" since he doesn't post in the literature thread...and that is the only way of showing it. As to being a cat or dog person....does that really interst anyone?

okay, okay...I know that you meant that only as examples, but so do I. And so you must understand what I mean.

Binkie,
indeed you are right that I have hardly spent enough time here to know enough to judge this person. And yes, his posts are quite monotone.
As to giving false information...once again, this is the internet. What do you expect?

It all just isn't worth the energy to gang up against him.

It gives me the impression that attaking his like is more an amusement than a real protest.
And of course this could be amusing, but it is of low dignity.


But, indeed, you have brought up some facts that I can't deny. So I have no more to say to this. Apart from the fact that there must be a freak in any community to make it funner and different-sided.
I doubt that there would be much going on in the politics thread if there was no Sternn-type.

[Binkie]

Originally Posted by Don't Look Behind You

As to giving false information...once again, this is the internet. What do you expect?

Obviously this is a rhetorical question, but due to it coming off as a quick "brush off" of the issue, I feel more inclined to answer it and further bring into context Sternn's actions;

What is generally expected out of political discussions is that people debate with facts that can be verified SOMEWHERE to support your opinion. If you can't produce them, you concede. Since this IS the internet, you should know better than to just take what someone says for face value. With Sternn it's a pillar to fact check everything he says. It's annoying because most newer folks, such as yourself, aren't used to his games and may indeed swallow his lies and fabrications as being truthful. What that ammounts to is propaganda.

I've posted a fair amount on sites and forums based in the UAE, where propaganda is common place. That much can be expected out of any forum. However, I rarely EVER see any of these spin doctors lying about themselves and their own personal experiences to further an arguement. Sternn does, which, in relation to the line I quoted you on, gives others cause to insult him, as indeed, it is a pathetic tatic. There's enough that's seriously wrong with the US. It is in all respects PATHETIC (captial everything) that someone has to LIE in order to make aspects of the United States look bad.

[Don't Look Behind You]

I wasn't saying it's a good thing. You are correct and here I cannot contradict you.

I am just so used to all this business with false information, propaganda and whatever else you name it.
I don't take anything in the interent seriousely anymore and I get confused when others do. Something to put on my "work on" list for the future.

[CptSternn]

Once again binkine in the convo with person cheap shots and mis-information.

Lets ask again, where are the WMDs you claim they found?

Iraq is going 'as planned' and 'very well' by your own assesments.

Whats your take on the various murdering, ******, child killers you currently support?

Still think Iraq isn't the next Vietnam? Still think america can 'win'?

I'm a troll for pointing out the obvious, eh?

[Binkie]

Instead of dignifying this with my own response, I'll just link to the post on Goth.net in which one of the admins tore you apart for trying to manipulate judgement cast against you for being an idiot:

http://www.goth.net/cgi-bin/ikonboar...00#entry209705

Hmmm... From the looks of it, Sternn, it appears the admins there know that you're just playing a troll game too.