Anarchy, It doesn't sound like what I'm told. - Page 4

Saya · 11-03-2008, 01:33 PM

There should be a sticky about anarchy, seeing as it comes up so much.

HumanePain · 11-03-2008, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saya

You're point mate was that those things came from space research, when they came before. Find better examples.

Before the space program needed to find a way to fit a computer into a satellite or a command module, computers were as big as a room, used vacuum tubes and consumed more power than could be supplied by a portable, spacecraft mounted generator. The space program was directly responsible for driving the miniaturization of electronics and the development of microchips as documented by the NASA contracts up for bid and supplied by AC Electronics, IBM and Grumman (now Northrop-Grumman).

http://history.nasa.gov/

PinstripesAndPithHelmets · 11-03-2008, 01:45 PM

Nice, HP. (characters to reach the minimum limit go here!)

JCC · 11-03-2008, 01:48 PM

Given that the only real trial of Anarchism was exponentially successful and industrially productive, a global anarchist community would be more than capable of continuing space travel, if it wanted to.

HellforgedX · 11-03-2008, 01:49 PM

If anarchy is "without government," then the society could not work, because human nature is generally selfish. To answer the question of would I agree to submit to a person saying they were my dictator, no, I would not willingly submit. If I were forced to submit, however, that would be overthrowing my own personal anarchy, because I would then be governed by someone.

There is no vote in anarchy. A vote is a tool to govern decisions, unless it is a one-person vote. If you use a vote to make a decision, you are using democracy. Just because a society has a lot of different ways to come to a decision does not mean it is an anarchic society; I would classify that as a poly-archy or something to that effect. Pure anarchy has no rules, no laws, no way to enforce a decision, does not care about the concensus, and no organized way to protect the members of the society.

I think I have finally come to the conclusion that an anarchic society is not a society at all, but just a random bunch of people who happen to be in the same geographic location.

JCC · 11-03-2008, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HellforgedX

If anarchy is "without government," then the society could not work, because human nature is generally selfish.

Yeah, I stopped reading there, because who are you to dictate what human nature is?

LiUsAiDh · 11-03-2008, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HellforgedX

I think I have finally come to the conclusion that an anarchic society is not a society at all, but just a random bunch of people who happen to be in the same geographic location.

Isn't that what we are anyway?

HellforgedX · 11-03-2008, 01:57 PM

How nice of you, JCC. I happened to read every single one of your inane posts in this thread before responding, instead of just saying "i don wanna reed no more cuz ur stoopid."

Human nature is mostly selfish. People want to get their own way, and everyone does it through force, kindness, or manipulation. Furthermore, I believe a lot of those that perform greatly selfless acts do so so they can be remembered as being selfless. But that's just my opinion.

Saya · 11-03-2008, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HumanePain

Before the space program needed to find a way to fit a computer into a satellite or a command module, computers were as big as a room, used vacuum tubes and consumed more power than could be supplied by a portable, spacecraft mounted generator. The space program was directly responsible for driving the miniaturization of electronics and the development of microchips as documented by the NASA contracts up for bid and supplied by AC Electronics, IBM and Grumman (now Northrop-Grumman).

http://history.nasa.gov/

Finally a valid point

My beef was when he said that those things mentioned (pacemakers, microwaves, computers) were invented because of the space race, where it was just electronics in general were improved. Although I still contest that America having a space program and India only going to space 44 years later is a bit of a moot point since they are both democratic, America only accelerated the space race because of the terrible thought that the Russians might get there first, whereas India doesn't exactly have the resources to spend on it, and is plagued by much bigger problems, poverty, social unrest, problems with Pakistan, corrupt politicians, violence between castes and violence in general between different groups of people. India is a democracy but isn't enjoying the luxury and relative peace America had.

Saya · 11-03-2008, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HellforgedX

Human nature is mostly selfish. People want to get their own way, and everyone does it through force, kindness, or manipulation. Furthermore, I believe a lot of those that perform greatly selfless acts do so so they can be remembered as being selfless. But that's just my opinion.

Exactly, just your opinion. You have no evidence to back up what you're saying. Its completely subjective and rather irrelevant.

JCC · 11-03-2008, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HellforgedX

How nice of you, JCC. I happened to read every single one of your inane posts in this thread before responding, instead of just saying "i don wanna reed no more cuz ur stoopid."

Human nature is mostly selfish. People want to get their own way, and everyone does it through force, kindness, or manipulation. Furthermore, I believe a lot of those that perform greatly selfless acts do so so they can be remembered as being selfless. But that's just my opinion.

It's not just 'your opinion', though. You clearly stated that it was human nature as if you were some sort of omniscient designer of the human species.

HellforgedX · 11-03-2008, 02:05 PM

And maybe I am! How would you know?

It sure is a good thing this thread is in the "Whining" section, no?

Anyways, society as a whole is selfish in that it always wants what is most convenient to it. How many people own microwave ovens? Telephones? Vehicles? All items invented to make YOU more comfortable, because YOU don't want to do so much, and what YOU want, YOU get.

The "YOU" I'm speaking of is not a specific person, by the way.

Anyways, back to work. Have a nice day.

Godslayer Jillian · 11-03-2008, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PinstripesAndPithHelmets

I'm not saying our current system is perfect (as evidenced by certain natural disasters in recent years...) but some system is better than no system at all. I sincerely doubt that an anarchist community would be able to swing all of its members in a direction that was conducive to building and funding organizations designed to combat such unknown X-factors.

Allow me to remind you of hurrican Katrina.
I already have said this I think twice.
Hurricane Katrina; one of the most recent disasters.
The government was slow to act, and in some cases not only were they not helping, but they were in fact prohibiting the victims from leaving their area so as not to cause a damage in the economic infrastructure of the neighboring safe regions. This means that the government effectively let hundreds, if not thousands, without food and without shelter, all in the name of 'order'. This is not suprising; the government first defends itself and then its constituents.
It was anarchists, particularly Food Not Bombs, who went to their aid. They kept the people clothed and fed as best as they could, which was surprisingly a lot.
This is because anarchists don't have to wait for permission to be good with their brethren.
It was not only after the people were safer was it that the government intervened again, and it even arrested several anarchists for the horrendous crime of helping.

Saya · 11-03-2008, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HellforgedX

And maybe I am! How would you know?

It sure is a good thing this thread is in the "Whining" section, no?

Anyways, society as a whole is selfish in that it always wants what is most convenient to it. How many people own microwave ovens? Telephones? Vehicles? All items invented to make YOU more comfortable, because YOU don't want to do so much, and what YOU want, YOU get.

The "YOU" I'm speaking of is not a specific person, by the way.

Anyways, back to work. Have a nice day.

Yeah telephones are just to make us lazy. I mean it doesn't help at all when you need help or an ambulence.......And 911.....but vehicles! Totally meant to make you lazy, and not to get rid of the depenendance on horses that broke their backs for us, or to get quickly from place to place if you're in an emergency....

KontanKarite · 11-03-2008, 02:12 PM

I don't think humans are initially selfish or evil. There ARE good people out there. Save for that large amount of people, you also have the "bad" ones where we can't determine why they do what they do. People get presented with circumstances that causes them to take a certain means to an end. For example, those who steal food or what have you.

I must admit, that I find it funny when people use that line that humans are by nature, selfish and evil. If so, then what miracle happened to you to make you, the individual, NOT selfish and evil?

Albert Mond · 11-03-2008, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

I don't think humans are initially selfish or evil. There ARE good people out there. Save for that large amount of people, you also have the "bad" ones where we can't determine why they do what they do. People get presented with circumstances that causes them to take a certain means to an end. For example, those who steal food or what have you.

I must admit, that I find it funny when people use that line that humans are by nature, selfish and evil. If so, then what miracle happened to you to make you, the individual, NOT selfish and evil?

He didn't say he wasn't, moron.

Tam Li Hua · 11-03-2008, 02:19 PM

Jillz: That's not entirely true. Sure, some anarchists may have helped with disaster relief, but so did a lot of organizations: Church groups, Peace Corps, etc. Also, there -were- some folks who were allowed to leave their native New Orleans; we had a TON of folks evacuate to Alabama, Georgia, and the surrounding areas. I remember college students transferring to Alabama schools to continue their education, folks headed to relatives' homes, etc. and so on.

As for revenue, as far as I'm aware, New Orleans is still turning a pretty penny for itself. They didn't cancel Mardis Gras, and folks still visit there often, if I'm not mistaken.

Albert Mond · 11-03-2008, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saya

Yeah telephones are just to make us lazy. I mean it doesn't help at all when you need help or an ambulence.......And 911.....but vehicles! Totally meant to make you lazy, and not to get rid of the depenendance on horses that broke their backs for us, or to get quickly from place to place if you're in an emergency....

People don't want to walk. You're acting like he was all "OMG! We just created these things to get us fat!111". What he OBVIOUSLY said was that these are fucking luxuries. LOTS of people don't have them. A lot of people WON'T, because if they WERE'NT invented for personal luxury, they'd be given to everyone on Earth who wanted them for free.

KontanKarite · 11-03-2008, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Albert Mond

He didn't say he wasn't, moron.

Forgive me for extending the courtesy to suspect him to be at least a decent human being.

Albert Mond · 11-03-2008, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

It was anarchists, particularly Food Not Bombs, who went to their aid. They kept the people clothed and fed as best as they could, which was surprisingly a lot.
This is because anarchists don't have to wait for permission to be good with their brethren.

And wiccans helped, too. Should I say it was wiccans who went to their aid?

Tam Li Hua · 11-03-2008, 02:23 PM

Konton: I couldn't agree more. Humans are naturally selfish, in general. That's not necessarily a bad thing; it's just something we strive to overcome.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Albert Mond

He didn't say he wasn't, moron.

Konton is hardly a moron. :/ And what he said is in line with the conversation, unlike your rather unnecessary insult.

Albert Mond · 11-03-2008, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

Forgive me for extending the courtesy to suspect him to be at least a decent human being.

That's the thing. Humans are only decent when compared to less decent ones.

Saya · 11-03-2008, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Albert Mond

People don't want to walk. You're acting like he was all "OMG! We just created these things to get us fat!111". What he OBVIOUSLY said was that these are fucking luxuries. LOTS of people don't have them. A lot of people WON'T, because if they WERE'NT invented for personal luxury, they'd be given to everyone on Earth who wanted them for free.

Don't have public transportation where you are? Cabs? Used car lots? Food and shelter isn't free but that doesn't mean its a luxury. Transportation is a necessity for many and vehicles are the way we get from point a to point b if its not feasible to walk.

Tam Li Hua · 11-03-2008, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Albert Mond

That's the thing. Humans are only decent when compared to less decent ones.

Yet, in any society, there is a definitive line between what is 'decent' and what is not.

In general, r@pists, cold-blooded killers, child abusers, and the like aren't considered 'decent'. Those who care for their families, who show respect for others, and are mature enough to exercise self-control over their emotions are considered more than 'decent'. Most people fall somewhere in the middle, which is where 'decency' comes into play..

Albert Mond · 11-03-2008, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saya

Don't have public transportation where you are? Cabs? Used car lots? Food and shelter isn't free but that doesn't mean its a luxury. Transportation is a necessity for many and vehicles are the way we get from point a to point b if its not feasible to walk.

But that doesn't mean it wasn't invented out of some form of selfishness. And food is natural. Cars are not. Nobody NEEDS a car to live. Shelter is also free. A house is not.