Capitalism thought excersize.

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by Despanan

No one is seriously talking about burning anything down, Johnathan

Perhaps not here. But any rate, I meant it in a more symbolic sense - meaningful reform and regulation can address the egregious abuses without completely abandoning a capitalistic society, or economically burning our society down and starting over.

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by x-deviant-x

What is Capitalism?

http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com...e-between.html

x-deviant-x, I'd like to ask you a couple of questions.

Suppose we have your presumed ideal of a free market capitalist society without any governmental oversight, involvement, or coercion.

Next month, I decide I don't like paying back the loans I took out for my college education and car. Lets pretend I had to get a loan for a house too, and don't want to pay for that either. I however like having them, so I think I'm going to keep them and unilaterally consider the debts on all settled effective last month.

When any of these entities approach me, do I get to look at them smugly, and tell them to go caveat emptor themselves? How would the stand-off be resolved?

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

Perhaps not here. But any rate, I meant it in a more symbolic sense - meaningful reform and regulation can address the egregious abuses without completely abandoning a capitalistic society, or economically burning our society down and starting over.

I'm starting to think more and more that capitalism is going to burn itself down.

[Miss Absynthe]

Originally Posted by AshleyO

Which workforce do you hire to produce your goods?

...are you asking us to help you write a school paper? :P

[x-deviant-x]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

x-deviant-x, I'd like to ask you a couple of questions.

Suppose we have your presumed ideal of a free market capitalist society without any governmental oversight, involvement, or coercion.

Next month, I decide I don't like paying back the loans I took out for my college education and car. Lets pretend I had to get a loan for a house too, and don't want to pay for that either. I however like having them, so I think I'm going to keep them and unilaterally consider the debts on all settled effective last month.

When any of these entities approach me, do I get to look at them smugly, and tell them to go caveat emptor themselves? How would the stand-off be resolved?

The government's involvement is to prevent people and businesses from screwing each other over. The government is not supposed to be regulating who can do business with who or to what extent. Read the constitution. The government is supposed to prevent monopolies. "Cornering the market". They don't. Though they kind'a did with Ma Bell, eventually. But how long did that take? I think that had something to do with when the whole monopoly clause was added into law vs when the telephone was invented, but I'm not sure.

Regardless, in your scenario the government would be the one to step in and enforce the contract that you, as a legal adult, agreed to abide by. They would still be a neutral factor, just acting as referee in a dispute. It would be no different if you reversed the situation and the lender decided to take your car or your house even though you've been making your payments as agreed, so long as you can prove you've been making those payments.

Your car and your house do not belong to you. It's on loan until you pay for it. If you fail to do so, the lender has every right to seize their property.

Student loans are a different matter entirely. Generally there's no collateral involved, so there's nothing to guarantee the lender will be repaid should you decide to say "fuck it" and not pay them. You can't repo education (though you should be able to demand a refund). So a different set of laws have to apply there. And student loan lenders have done everything in their power to enslave an entire generation of students who will never conceivably repay their loans. That's corruption. But that's a different discussion all together.

.

[x-deviant-x]

Ok Desp, I see what you're saying.

I was going to go through and respond to each section equally but I'm too damned tired for that at the moment.

I agree that Anarcho-Syndicalism would be a much much better system than what we have right now. Hell at this point full-blown anarchy would be a much better system than we have right now.

Unfortunately, none of us will ever get this government to move to that, for exactly the reasons you point out. It will take a complete collapse of our economic system before this can begin to happen. But that is coming, any day now. I think the most important thing any of us can do right now, regardless of how much we agree or disagree on how things SHOULD be, is figure out how we're going to survive the coming storm, cause who knows how long it's going to last.

When you start talking about not owning property I get defensive though, as do most Americans. I imagine your philosophy is that you only truly own your person, which is true. But that's why guns were invented, and in a truly free society every person should be able to defend themselves and their possessions, by any means necessary and affordable to them, without having to rely on anyone else, especially not the government.

I have some more questions for you, about Anarcho-Syndicalism, structure, various industries, etc., but it'll have to wait til later.

.

[Alan]

Originally Posted by x-deviant-x

The government is not supposed to be regulating who can do business with who or to what extent. Read the constitution. The government is supposed to prevent monopolies.

That is nowhere in the constitution.

[x-deviant-x]

I didn't say it was, Alan.

Do you read backwards or something?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman_Antitrust_Act

[Alan]

I just quoted you. It's pretty ridiculous that you claim you didn't say anything about the constitution right after the direct quote about you bitching to someone to read the constitution about the role of government in business.

[Miss Absynthe]

I think what was meant was...

Originally Posted by x-deviant-x

The government is not supposed to be regulating who can do business with who or to what extent. Read the constitution.

The government is supposed to prevent monopolies.

and not...

Originally Posted by x-deviant-x

The government is not supposed to be regulating who can do business with who or to what extent.

Read the constitution. The government is supposed to prevent monopolies.

[Despanan]

Anarcho-Syndicalism is actually very possible without a full collapse of the government. I'm part of a theatre company which runs on the Anarcho-syndicalist model.

All you'd really need to implement it on a large scale, is education and a change in how Americans view alternative approaches to economy.

Most Americans don't understand what traditional social anarchism is, he'll most Americans don't know what Socialsm is, and have no concept as to what a regulation actually is.

Minimum wage is a regulation. The eight-hour workday is a regulation (as is the 40-hour workweek). Overtime pay is a regulation. Family and maternity and sick leave is a regulation. Healthcare for full-time employees is a regulation. The Sherman anti-trust act is a regulation (which is sadly no longer enforced, thank you very much Reagan).

But what I'm saying is, you don't have to wait for the revolution to start making things better. You don't need to wait for permission to Unionize and boycott and engage in other direct action with the aim of protecting our people and our liberties from the current capitalist/corporatist subversion and domination we're seeing.

[Jonathan]

Being paid in the national currency is a regulation. Without government oversight there's nothing keeping an employer from paying in store credit or company script. Or settling debts with a picture of a spider.

[Despanan]

That is fucking hilarious Jonathan.

I for one argue we switch to a doodle-based economy. It's slightly less crazy than going back to a Gold-Standard.

[Jonathan]

Neither the government, nor my creditors, should be able to dictate the value of my half-assed sketches.