I Hate Fat-Rolls! >_<

[Saya]

Originally Posted by honeythorn

Not if you have your own chickens for eggs if not for meat also , use their waste/shit for mixing with home made compost ( along with fruit and veg peelings, eggshells, shredded paper ect ) and grow at least some of your own fruit and veg with the aforementioned compost.

You're still feeding them grains and lots of water, no? And compost doesn't necessarily need their shit and nor is their shit not entirely non-toxic. Besides, this isn't feasible for much of the population nor is it the only meat anyone eats, do you do this and eat nothing else?

There is no conceievable way that method is less green than buying and consuming a great deal of imported goods flown in from all over the world using all manner of planes boats and other fuel consuming methods.

Using grains flown in from all over the world and lots of water, yes.

Cattle/animal farming takes up less land in that animals can be moved and the land can recover if rotational grazing is used ( and it is in a lot of places ) , not to mention animals have a tendency to last longer in poor weather/climate changes whereas crops can easily fail and/or be rendered unuseable for people in other ways such as moulds and fungi ect.

Rotational grazing still produces much methane gas which is much more harmful than carbon dioxide. Not to mention in times of drought it is plant food that becomes the staple because people know they can't waste the water on animals nor the plant food that they would consume. You do realize that in a lot of times when this happen a lot of people can only afford meat maybe once every few weeks, right?

Not to mention that a diet containing a small to moderate amount of meat/poultry or fish is what we have evolved to eat.

I'm going to point out that this is an appeal to nature fallacy, which has its own wikipedia page now, whoo!

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2009/08...n-my-mind.html

[Solumina]

Originally Posted by Saya

Not true for a number of reasons, a vegan diet eating exclusively imported produce is still more environmental than a local omnivore diet because of how wasteful animal agriculture is, animal agriulture contributes more to global warming than transportation does. Also eating local isn't that green.

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2009/08...n-my-mind.html

Oh Saya don't pretend that large scale farming is the only possible way to get meat. Unless someone lives in one of a very few places it would be terribly difficult to avoid getting most of their food from small scale sources and I have yet to see a source that even begins to indicate that small farms that produce meat, either exclusively or in addition to other products, are less environmentally friendly than large scale vegetable farms, let alone those that import their produce from distant places.

That and I never said eat loads of meat, but it is very difficult to have a local vegan diet unless you live in an area that produces soy beans, hence the don't go vegan bit.


Oh and your link isn't working (it just takes me to their main site, not an article) so I'm not sure what point it contains.

[Saya]

Oh and I should point out that eating local is just as easy on a vegan diet anyway.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Solumina

Oh Saya don't pretend that large scale farming is the only possible way to get meat. Unless someone lives in one of a very few places it would be terribly difficult to avoid getting most of their food from small scale sources and I have yet to see a source that even begins to indicate that small farms that produce meat, either exclusively or in addition to other products, are less environmentally friendly than large scale vegetable farms, let alone those that import their produce from distant places.

That and I never said eat loads of meat, but it is very difficult to have a local vegan diet unless you live in an area that produces soy beans, hence the don't go vegan bit.

Eating local "happy meat" may be more environmental, but its still not as environmental as eating vegan. Animals still need to eat more protein than they produce and consume a lot more water than veggies. Besides, you don't eat a ton of meat but you eat local, where are you getting your veggies?

Soy beans can be done local and if not, plenty of vegans don't eat it. I probably only eat soy maybe once a week, and would have no problem giving it up if I had to. And the only people I know who eat exclusively local are vegan.

[Solumina]

And what do you do in an area that doesn't produce soy? You were the one that said it is the only complete protein that exists in the plant world.

[Saya]

You do realize that its not a necessary staple, right?

[Solumina]

I'm not vegan and I can't go vegan so I haven't bothered to look into what you can get from what, you mentioned in another debate when you were trying to tell me what I should eat that soy is the only complete protein that you can get from plants, I'm just going off of that info.


If that is wrong fine, I still think that getting locally sourced food is important and I don't give a shit if someone goes vegan.

[Saya]

I didn't say it, there's a list of veggies that have complete proteins, quinoa is another one off the top of my head. Besides the American Dietician Association has concluded that the incomplete protein thing isn't enough to worry about since you eat more than one plant a day (or you should,) for example rice and beans together and you have all your amino acids. Its not a concern.

[Solumina]

Alright so become a local vegan, that is great, the "don't go vegan" bit was nothing more that a little joking quip, you don't have to completely blow up every time that veganism comes up.

[Saya]

But it was still infactual, I'm not blowing up I'm just pointing out that it is an incorrect assertion.

[JCC]

How many times does this argument have to happen?

[Solumina]

Originally Posted by Saya

But it was still infactual, I'm not blowing up I'm just pointing out that it is an incorrect assertion.

Your original post was not in response to anything about soy or protein, it was in response to me saying "don't go vegan, go local, the Earth will love you more." The link you posted completely avoids the heart of locally based eating and therefore does nothing to convince me that my point was not factual and I still stand by what I said.

[Solumina]

Originally Posted by JCC

How many times does this argument have to happen?

It doesn't have to happen at all seeing as I don't think anyone on here has a problem with someone going vegan, but it will keep happening since some people can't get past their persecution complex and see that they don't have to have an argument at every opportunity.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Solumina

Your original post was not in response to anything about soy or protein, it was in response to me saying "don't go vegan, go local, the Earth will love you more." The link you posted completely avoids the heart of locally based eating and therefore does nothing to convince me that my point was not factual and I still stand by what I said.

It talks about how eating local isn't necessarily green and points out that meat is more enivornmentally taxing than produce is. You can have more sources if you want:

http://www.greenyour.com/lifestyle/food-drink/meat
http://www.newscientist.com/article/...meat-does.html

And you're the one getting hostile and defensive while I'm just merely pointing out that what you're saying isn't true, you don't have to accuse me of having a peresecution complex.

[Solumina]

Again you and the articles you are posting are missing the point of local eating, and of what I meant. There is a lot more to local eating than just tracking the miles that your food has traveled.

Yes, meat is more environmentally taxing than produce but large scale produce farming is more environmentally taxing than conscientious meat production and having conscientious sources for your food is impossible if you don't know where it comes from. Even if what you buy is certified organic it can still have a huge environmental impact, knowing the farm it comes from is the only way to be sure that it is Earth friendly.

Not to mention that creating greenhouse gasses is far from the only way that food production damages the Earth and your sources haven't mentioned other ecological damages, which can be far worse than greenhouse gasses.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Solumina

Again you and the articles you are posting are missing the point of local eating, and of what I meant. There is a lot more to local eating than just tracking the miles that your food has traveled.

Yes, meat is more environmentally taxing than produce but large scale produce farming is more environmentally taxing than conscientious meat production and having conscientious sources for your food is impossible if you don't know where it comes from. Even if what you buy is certified organic it can still have a huge environmental impact, knowing the farm it comes from is the only way to be sure that it is Earth friendly.

Not to mention that creating greenhouse gasses is far from the only way that food production damages the Earth and your sources haven't mentioned other ecological damages, which can be far worse than greenhouse gasses.

Local doesn't always mean organic, a local farmer here got in a lot of trouble for discarding shit in a stream kids swim in and there's only one local farm that has organic produce. Secondly, while large food production of any kind deserves a major overhaul, eating organic food from the next province over is a lot better than eating local meat here, which in the winter requires to import grains and feed for the animals anyway. And it still requires a lot less water, water loss is a very serious ecological issue.

[Solumina]

Are you even reading what I am saying? There are shitty farmers just about everywhere, I'm saying that you should know exactly where your food comes from so that you know exactly what kind of place it is. Everywhere that I buy my food from is somewhere I have been, it is somewhere that I know, I get it from people I know, people I trust, there are plenty of farms in the area that I would never eat food from but I know which ones they are. If they were half way across the world I would never know what kind of place they are.


Not to mention that there are plenty of meat options with little to no environmental impact such as hunting, which in many areas, actually has environmental benefits as many natural predators have been removed from the ecosystem.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Solumina

Are you even reading what I am saying? There are shitty farmers just about everywhere, I'm saying that you should know exactly where your food comes from so that you know exactly what kind of place it is. Everywhere that I buy my food from is somewhere I have been, it is somewhere that I know, I get it from people I know, people I trust, there are plenty of farms in the area that I would never eat food from but I know which ones they are. If they were half way across the world I would never know what kind of place they are.


Not to mention that there are plenty of meat options with little to no environmental impact such as hunting, which in many areas, actually has environmental benefits as many natural predators have been removed from the ecosystem.

Well thats good for you but for many of us its not an option, nor is it necessarily sustainable as our population is only growing, we're probably always going to need large scale farming of some kind.

And you do know that wildlife associations don't actually have population control in mind, right? Capturing and neutering is more effective than hunting, and the quotas are intentionally set so that there will always be a hunt next year.

[Solumina]

Originally Posted by Saya

Well thats good for you but for many of us its not an option, nor is it necessarily sustainable as our population is only growing, we're probably always going to need large scale farming of some kind.

Really? It isn't an option and it isn't sustainable? I'm not talking about subsistence farming, I'm simply talking about small scale farming, which is perfectly feasible for our population. We don't need large scale farms, we need people to pay some attention to our consumption of space and resources but it is still more than doable.

Originally Posted by Saya

And you do know that wildlife associations don't actually have population control in mind, right? Capturing and neutering is more effective than hunting, and the quotas are intentionally set so that there will always be a hunt next year.

Yes capturing and neutering is more effective at population control than hunting but it doesn't feed people. Also there are plenty of types of animals that people can hunt without regulation, most rodents and small birds fall under this category and while you may not think of squirrel as a viable food source many people do.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Solumina

Really? It isn't an option and it isn't sustainable? I'm not talking about subsistence farming, I'm simply talking about small scale farming, which is perfectly feasible for our population. We don't need large scale farms, we need people to pay some attention to our consumption of space and resources but it is still more than doable.

Its not an option in a lot of places, yes. In the winter there is no local produce to be had here, and we can't grow a lot of things here and other northern places. And none of the farms are anywhere big enough to support our population anyway.

Yes capturing and neutering is more effective at population control than hunting but it doesn't feed people. Also there are plenty of types of animals that people can hunt without regulation, most rodents and small birds fall under this category and while you may not think of squirrel as a viable food source many people do.

I'm sure if hunters lets say didn't spend hundreds of dollars on hunting equipment, gun licensing and hunting licensing they'd probably have a bit of money left over for veggies anyway. I don't think the typical white middle class hunter is really worried about feeding the world.

[Solumina]

Originally Posted by Saya

Its not an option in a lot of places, yes. In the winter there is no local produce to be had here, and we can't grow a lot of things here and other northern places. And none of the farms are anywhere big enough to support our population anyway.

Are freezing and canning really so bad that they get to be completely ignored? Perhaps you think it is terribly harsh for me to say so but have you taken the time to explore what is locally available, even though it may not lead to the ease and variety that you currently enjoy. Not every food is available here either, that doesn't mean that I can't have a wonderful and balanced diet.

Originally Posted by Saya

I'm sure if hunters lets say didn't spend hundreds of dollars on hunting equipment, gun licensing and hunting licensing they'd probably have a bit of money left over for veggies anyway. I don't think the typical white middle class hunter is really worried about feeding the world.

Do you really think that it is the middle class hunters who are using hunting to supply a significant portion of their diet? Not to mention that a hunting license is incredibly inexpensive when compared to the amount of food that can be brought to the table and the equipment is a one time cost that will last for many seasons. Since when was this about getting cheap food anyway? And you're right most hunters aren't thinking about feeding the world, they are thinking about feeding their own family.

[Stormtrooper of Death]

Geez, that was a lot of reading. You guys didn't ahve to get in a big argument over little old me now! Lol.

[honeythorn]

Saya, chickens can be fed plenty of things apart from grains, including insects ( such as worms which you can breed yourself very easily ) and greens( including wild plants such as chickweed and that type of thing ) , as such things are what their wild relatives do in fact eat ( the modern chicken is descended from a type of jungle fowl ) this way you can use less grains and seeds ( and some you can try growing yourself in small areas of the garden ).

Well rotted chicken manure is perfectly safe for use in compost and on the soil.

You do know that water falls out of the sky right? This does happen where you live yes? Rainwater is quite drinkable and can be collected and stored in all manner of receptacles, you don't actually have to turn on a tap to give your livestock water though obviously this helps in dry weather and low rainfall .

I only eat chicken and fish since I dislike the taste of red meat. However, if you do live in a farming area, you can simply do a bit of research and find out which farms feed their animals in the open air rather than constantly on grains kept in sheds all their lives.

If it farts or belches, it creates methane. Yes cows produce a lot of it, which is why I've always said that cattle farming should be reduced dramatically.

I do agree that people eat too much meat, our bodies are not built to digest the amount we ( as a general species nowadays) consume . But I will never agree that people should cut it from the diet entirely ( unless for medical reasons )


The appeal to nature fallacy thing when applied to DIET is rendered utter bullshit. No one is talking infanticde and other such things, it's the food chain. Morality has little to do with it, responsibility to provide a quick death and reduce the suffering of the animal you are going to eat is more important.

[Not Tha Duckman]

God I want you.

[Mir]

For those who want to see how this argument ends, please refer to the several lines of conversation that have already taken place on said subject.