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Old 03-18-2011, 10:32 PM   #5451
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Oh I'm fine with discussion, in proper channels and please don't think that I don't want this discussed at all on Gnet, it just comes off to me as rude to defriend SCC on the basis that he thinks there might be a higher power.

I can't speak for Kontan, but I think that wasn't his reason for defriending.
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Old 03-18-2011, 10:35 PM   #5452
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I should just mention, you know, on the off hand, the wind is to me like walks in the park of a tub of icecream are to others, it gives me peace and when it's blowing I sometimes like to just relax in it and envision the flow of it as I feel it. That's all the wind is to me. I called it a peace force, because it's a force of nature and it gives me peace.
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Old 03-19-2011, 02:21 AM   #5453
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take your goddam religious bickering to another thread.. This is the friggin' RANT thread, and I'm here to RANT about the stupendous 'who really gives a shit' religious debate!

I'd call myself an atheist (spe?) but all the friggin' atheists I've met are assholes, and there is no way I'm aligning myself with a bunch of self-righteous A-holes.

I fucking hurt and I've turned into nasty cranky fruitbat, so there better be a God because believe me, no one else will save anyone on this friggin' pile of dirt and shit in the middle of space from a cranky bat!

Have a nice day/night.
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Old 03-19-2011, 09:04 AM   #5454
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SCC, are we facebook friends? because if not you should friend me.

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I should just mention, you know, on the off hand, the wind is to me like walks in the park of a tub of icecream are to others, it gives me peace and when it's blowing I sometimes like to just relax in it and envision the flow of it as I feel it. That's all the wind is to me. I called it a peace force, because it's a force of nature and it gives me peace.
Then what was this "paganism" you're referring to? What's the second of the two "Seemingly irreconcilable faiths"? What are the "Abilities" of certain people that you refer to?

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I'm caught in a wrestling match between doing perspective its justice, reason, experience, faith, Christianity, Paganism, a belief that we give God too much credit for some things but cannot reconcile things such creation/big bang with science, a deep connection with nature but also a reliance on technological innovation, a belief in the 'abilities' of certain people, an often absent word from any deity in the present and the coming together of two seemingly opposite faiths to form one moment of revelation is the short, summary of what my spiritual identity crisis is.

In ultra short: I'm Agnostic, yay!
Also: You aren't Agnostic, you're undecided and that's not bad. Agnostic means you belive that it's impossible to know anything about the nature of God(s).

Anyway, I get it, you're having a spiritual crisis. That happens I think what set Kontan off was the language you employed. You guys have to realize he went through EXACTLY the same thing you're going through when he was 19 or 20. He lost his faith in the normative Jesus, he was dealing with issues of paranoia, and he looked for anyway he could to reconcile that faith. For like 3 years (maybe longer) he identified as "Pagan" and then "Gonstic Christian", and he used to go after me constantly for being an atheist (When I wasn't an atheist, I just thought tarot cards and astral travel were fucking STUPID).

You've got to understand, Kontan and I have seen people who got halfway there, and then got LOST to this neo-pagan bullshit. You are realizing what is wrong with chrisitianity, and starting to break away, which is GREAT most people have neither the strength, nor the presence of mind to crack that brainwashing, and I applaud you for that.

Here's the thing though, this is a PIVOTAL time for you, I don't want to discourage you from "communing with the forces" because being in nature brings me peace too, but I DO want to make sure that you aren't drugging yourself while you do it (and make no mistake that's what religious thought is.)

I felt more spiritual, as an atheist on top of Katahdin, than I have EVER felt in a church (and I've been to the vatican) but when you assign a "spirit" to the wind, you cheapen the wind. When you assign an imaginary hand of order on the cosmose you cheapen the beauty of the chaos. If God(s) made the trees and the mountains and the sky then it's all just set dressing for a morality play, but if this occured by CHANCE, do you see how fucking special everything is? Without God(s) this world is a blank canvas, and this life and consciousness means so much more.

You can understand why Kontan and I would fight so hard against the people who seek to cheapen it and bend others to their will. You can see how truly horrifying mystical thinking, even "harmless" mystical thinking really is.

TLDR: FUCK the Enlightenment, and fuck Enlightenment Christianity, those guys were BRILLIANT thinkers who realized that something was seriously wrong with their faith, and instead of coming to the obvious conclusion used their brilliance to perform feats of mental gymnastics and perpetuate this soul-crushing system of spiritual tyranny.

One can forgive them for being reluctant to speak up...until fairly recently heresey was punishable by death, but this reconciling of faith with science? It's an intellectually and spiritually bankrupt cop-out, it's an easy answer which perpetuates the cycle of violent spiritual coercion, and to see that, and say nothing, or to work FOR that coercion, either actively or passively that, is truly unforgivable.

Thou shalt not suffer a wise man who turns his toungue to dipshittery.

/rant

Also: Screw that guy who tried to psychoanalyze you on failbook. He sounds like a nutcase.
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Old 03-19-2011, 12:02 PM   #5455
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If a majority of Atheists think Theists are mentally substandard (since I've seen verbiage like the word "stupid" bandied about here), I wonder how many Theists think a government of Atheists would be fair to them.

I'm not sure a majority of Atheists think that of Theists ... it just appears the majority of the vocal ones I've encountered do think so.

Anyway, I'm not getting into or wishing to continue this conversation, as it's been bit long winded already. And I'm not trying to get some last dig in ... I actually am just pondering that question after seeing all of this discussion.
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Old 03-19-2011, 02:26 PM   #5456
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I don't see what the big deal is. Growing up people are all making fun of other people's religons and then don't make fun of my religon. Why doesn't everyone be the first person to say, "Religon is an important topic. It is something to be taken seriously because it is a reflection of what I believe in. Though someone my believe something else, it works for them like it works for me. They are great people and I'm a great person too. So different ideals hold everything together and make it possible to get up in the morning. Who cares? There are some disagreements, but the quality and how a person lives thier life is most important so I am happy for everyone."

See it isn't that hard. Most importantly I don't have to go against my own beliefs of avoiding judgment and making false assumptions about people. One less person feeding into bitterness, hatred and making bad decisions based on potentially false facts. Yep, one less person... me.
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Old 03-19-2011, 05:56 PM   #5457
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Did my job hunting late in the day (couldn't get motivated earlier and the coffee wasn't taking hold for some reason) and I just got done. What a pain.
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Old 03-19-2011, 07:31 PM   #5458
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If a majority of Atheists think Theists are mentally substandard (since I've seen verbiage like the word "stupid" bandied about here), I wonder how many Theists think a government of Atheists would be fair to them.
No one is saying theists are mentally substandard. They're indoctrinated, not necessarily stupid (there are TONS of smart theists, and LOADS of dumbass atheists).

I'm sure theists assume atheists WON'T be fair to them, but that's the thing, there's no inherent baggage in an atheist's mind that makes that a necessity. Unless the atheists are irrational (and it's much easier to call out a bigoted, irrational atheist as opposed to a bigoted irrational christian) they really WOULD be the best people to represent EVERYONE fairly.

Not so with theists; their religious creeds DEMAND an abandonment of reason in the face of a higher power. Murder isn't wrong because it's wrong, Murder is wrong because God says it's wrong. Hoarding resources at the expense of your fellow man isn't wrong because it's bad for society, it's wrong because God said "thou shalt not covet" and Jesus spoke against riches on earth overpowering "treasures in heaven".

If Christians are right, and God is real, they not only have the RIGHT to promote their world view and values above all others, they have the divine DUTY to do so. If they're right evolution should not be taught in school, and women SHOULD be subservient to men. In a nutshell, their creed DEMANDS that they, their God, and their fellow believers come first, and if they're right then YES they do come first and they DO have the right to roll over the rest of us.

This is not to say that theists CAN'T govern fairly. They certainly can, and many have, but really what that comes down to is the theist choosing to put their faith aside in the interest of fairness. Strictly speaking, that's not something which jives with their own beliefs, nor is it something their god is likely to be cool with (nor should he, if he exists).

Conversely Atheists have no real REASON to persecute Christians, and no excuse other than bigotry if it happens.
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Old 03-19-2011, 08:44 PM   #5459
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Housemate ate all my falafels
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Old 03-19-2011, 08:52 PM   #5460
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No, I get the rational logic. But you can be right about all that and still not win over a majority of Theists because they're not perceiving "fairness" the same way you are. Particularly because, in the name of such "fairness", you might have to quash their pursuit of their divine duty (as our government does now when it comes to abortion rights.) Theists could perceive that as innate persecution.

To use an expression, I'm playing devil's advocate for the Theists. I actually agree with you. But in trying to win elections, I think Atheistic candidates would be fighting that kind of perception.

And that makes me wonder how many Atheists hold a major public office now. I'm talking governor or Federal level. Is there a place where you could look that up?
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Old 03-19-2011, 10:11 PM   #5461
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No, I get the rational logic. But you can be right about all that and still not win over a majority of Theists because they're not perceiving "fairness" the same way you are. Particularly because, in the name of such "fairness", you might have to quash their pursuit of their divine duty (as our government does now when it comes to abortion rights.) Theists could perceive that as innate persecution.

To use an expression, I'm playing devil's advocate for the Theists. I actually agree with you. But in trying to win elections, I think Atheistic candidates would be fighting that kind of perception.

And that makes me wonder how many Atheists hold a major public office now. I'm talking governor or Federal level. Is there a place where you could look that up?
The only one I know about is 1 atheist city councilman. I think he's in Georgia. Currently Christians are trying to have him removed from office because there's a law on the books in Georgia (and 7 other states) that you cannot hold public office if you are an atheist.

So yeeeaaaahhhhh...We actually have LESS representation than women, homosexuals, and Muslims. And are the second most distrusted "faith" in America (Scientology recently edged us out for the #1 slot).
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Old 03-19-2011, 10:18 PM   #5462
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Edit: also 1 house of representative member in California, apparently
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Old 03-19-2011, 10:20 PM   #5463
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Wow I like how this whole lovely little debate came out of my post getting misinterpreted. That will make me thing twice about what I say on gnet.


And here is my rant:
I hate working only one morning a week, it makes it impossible for me to have a nice, regular sleep schedule. Also I hate being wired at 1:00 in the morning so that I can't even get six hours of sleep before my morning shift. Gah I hate this shit, we really need to get some more people hired.
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Old 03-19-2011, 10:23 PM   #5464
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Housemate ate all my falafels
Why is this travesty not getting the attention it deserves?

I'm so sorry, Cosmicgaunt.
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Old 03-20-2011, 09:32 AM   #5465
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Left whacked by a shitty, exhausting and generally upsetting couple of weeks. Trying to shake the depression, get tough with myself and get a burst of ass-ckicking mad to shake out of the funk - however this have been rendered abortive by the fact that Eye of the Tiger has been forever ruined for me (by my own hand, just to add to the Camus-esque absurdity of pretty much everything right now). So I'm just sitting around scowling & nursing my mangina instead.
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Old 03-20-2011, 10:35 AM   #5466
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The only one I know about is 1 atheist city councilman. I think he's in Georgia. Currently Christians are trying to have him removed from office because there's a law on the books in Georgia (and 7 other states) that you cannot hold public office if you are an atheist.
Yeah, that's "fairness" ... NOT! Wow! Well, that's the kind of thinking you're up against. Just another one of many reasons why I could never (and would never) consider running for office.

That and the being a convicted felon thing.
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Old 03-20-2011, 04:22 PM   #5467
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Bwah? I thought alcohol was used in the processes of extraction, not an actual ingredient. Do they ban mouthwash too?
Sure do. Which is so fucking hypocritical..
"complete and total abstinence from all drugs" they say, while drinking energy drinks and smoking.
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Old 03-20-2011, 04:25 PM   #5468
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Well keep in mind, a crazy Alcoholic probably WOULD start quaffing mouthwash if he was jonesing enough.

Most rehab places let you keep caffeine and cigarettes because it's actually detrimental to your process to remove those. Cigs are too addictive and the negative benefits outweight the positive to waste time on breaking a nictine addiction, and caffiene is nothing to worry about and the withdrawal can be a bitch.

Alot of former coke-heads I know now drink a SHIT TON of Red Bull, because of rehab.
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Old 03-20-2011, 04:32 PM   #5469
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Well keep in mind, a crazy Alcoholic probably WOULD start quaffing mouthwash if he was jonesing enough.
Yes. But.. vanilla extract?!

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Most rehab places let you keep caffeine and cigarettes because it's actually detrimental to your process to remove those. Cigs are too addictive and the negative benefits outweight the positive to waste time on breaking a nictine addiction, and caffiene is nothing to worry about and the withdrawal can be a bitch.
Mine didn't. Also, I was talking about NA meetings at my outpatient rehab program, not inpatient rehab.

It's no more detrimental to replace cigarettes with a nicotine patch than it is to replace heroin with suboxone. Caffeine is still a drug, and when a program says "complete and total abstinence from ALL drugs" (excluding those required for medical reasons, of course) it seems pretty ridiculous to still allow caffeine.
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Old 03-20-2011, 11:31 PM   #5470
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Kor - Vanilla extract has alcohol in it. I've heard of homeless people drinking anything with alcohol in it, they will even drink methalated spirits.

My cat caught a rabbit, and brought it in the laundry, so I had skanky dead bunny all over the place.
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Old 03-21-2011, 05:53 AM   #5471
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Housemate ate all my falafels
That...that is the saddest thing in today's rant posts. I love falafel.
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Old 03-21-2011, 06:40 AM   #5472
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Well keep in mind, a crazy Alcoholic probably WOULD start quaffing mouthwash if he was jonesing enough.
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Yes. But.. vanilla extract?!
Korinna, I once lived in a low-rent boarding house where I paid for a room by the week. I watched a guy convulse on the floor because his only source of income was food stamps, and he was so desperate to get his alcohol buzz on that he bought aftershave/cologne with his food stamps and drank it. The paramedics came and said there was nothing they could do for him; I watched him die. So, yeah, an extreme alcoholic would get their buzz on from abusing Nyquil (I still wonder why he didn't do that instead?), mouthwash or vanilla extract. And the rules you're working under are made to cover the worst case scenario, no doubt.

Also, the energy drink, cigarette and coffee overloading did always seem hypocritical to me too, but many people who work in those programs are products of those programs. And while they might kick the original drug of choice, most replace it with some "acceptable", legal, crutch-like stimulant.

And, you probably already know this, but they do make alcohol-free types of mouthwash. Is your particular program against using those too?
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Old 03-21-2011, 07:19 PM   #5473
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Ann Coulter needs to go soak up some radiation rays in Japan...and so do the rest of the dipshit conservatives that are currently freaking out about the face of nuclear plants in the US.
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Old 03-21-2011, 08:46 PM   #5474
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Rabble rabble rabble!
Rhubarb rhubarb!
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Old 03-21-2011, 09:05 PM   #5475
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Celery Celery!
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