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Politics "Under democracy, one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule -and both commonly succeed, and are right." -H.L. Menken

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Old 09-21-2012, 11:26 PM   #101
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Understandable. I try not to speak for other minorities, but to be honest I've heard a few statements that made me facewall hard enough to give myself a concussion and think, "Man, who would honestly win (or rather yet, seriously, LOSE?) an in house vote among American ethnic minorities when it comes to who received the shortest end of the Red, White and Blue all American shaft?"

I think it would be a moment out of CNBC that would be worthy of payperview.

"First, here is Red Iroquois to discuss the land Reclamation Act, followed by Liberian Africanus regarding the overseas funds for his countrymen in Liberia. Afterwards, we shall discuss the property rights of Mexico from Texas west to Califonia, north to the Oregon border and south throughout New Mexico, Colorado, Arizona, Nevada, Etc.

"After that, we shall break for lunch ladies and gentlemen, at least those who are more than 3/5's of a person."
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Old 09-21-2012, 11:30 PM   #102
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Huge posts clearly effort went into deserve thoughtful follow up, will get back to respond to what I can
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Old 09-22-2012, 12:16 AM   #103
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I'm calling it. Jon is going to minimize the racist aspects of income inequality and insist that there's rich PoCs out there.
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Old 09-22-2012, 01:05 AM   #104
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Obama is president and black, black people don't have it bad. The victim card is just overplayed.

Omg.... you guys ... guys. Seriously.
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Old 09-22-2012, 01:09 AM   #105
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Rip off a million poor people and Wall street has no problems. " -Rebecca B
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Old 09-22-2012, 01:20 AM   #106
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HAHAHAHA Im in love. Pugs work for everything. Also, i'm drunk. So I can answer all with my ideas. instead of riding on the coat tails of people. lol. fuck... no wait.... lol
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Old 09-22-2012, 01:41 AM   #107
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okay.. so... I don't like Mitt Romney. Not at all. As Ashley said, fuck that guy.
He may be bending his words for the republican party, he may be saying bullshit to get polls. But, in the sanctity of his privacy, he's still an ass hole. He doesn't care about anything that progresses humanity, only what solves our issues with money. And, even then, it's for the people that are doing alright and not for the people suffering. So fuck that guy. He was raised in a happy little white male world and, shock and behold, still lives in it. He may have ideas to solve some issues, but not even close to solving all issues.
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Old 09-22-2012, 09:02 AM   #108
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Understandable. I try not to speak for other minorities, but to be honest I've heard a few statements that made me facewall hard enough to give myself a concussion and think, "Man, who would honestly win (or rather yet, seriously, LOSE?) an in house vote among American ethnic minorities when it comes to who received the shortest end of the Red, White and Blue all American shaft?"

I think it would be a moment out of CNBC that would be worthy of payperview.

"First, here is Red Iroquois to discuss the land Reclamation Act, followed by Liberian Africanus regarding the overseas funds for his countrymen in Liberia. Afterwards, we shall discuss the property rights of Mexico from Texas west to Califonia, north to the Oregon border and south throughout New Mexico, Colorado, Arizona, Nevada, Etc.

"After that, we shall break for lunch ladies and gentlemen, at least those who are more than 3/5's of a person."
Honestly? I think Native Americans.
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Old 09-22-2012, 12:13 PM   #109
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The limitation in looking at statistics is that it can only tell you what is happening, and not why.

It certainly looks bad if less than 2/3rds of all students are getting more than 3/4's of available scholarships and grants, but there's a few other numbers I'd need to know before I can tell if it is damning. Taking a closer look white students make up 61.8% of the student body, 5.5% of them get private scholarships. Black or African American students make up 14% percent of the student population, and 4.4% of them get private scholarships. The average awarded to whites was $2,368, and blacks was $2,671 (and No, this is not playing into AshleyO's hopes to see me cry about white victimization).

Of course 5% of a bigger number means white students "get more", but on an individual level they aren't that far off. Those statistics also do not include awards that are restricted by race, so there is an incomplete data set. The distribution in funding seems to run relatively consistent with
the student population. 60 something percent of students get 60 something percent of the funding. In any case those statistics don't seem to provide
any information on how class affects the likelihood of a given student getting help. A family that is struggling to get by is not going to have
the time or resources to help their kids fight for the aid they need.

On crime - the economic class is also a strong factor for both victims and incarceration rates. "Refusing to address the role that class plays in the criminal justice system, and politics in general, makes it all but impossible
to address the root causes of 2 million people behind bars in the U.S.
Race and racism do play a factor, but only indirectly. To the extent that
blacks and Hispanics are disproportionately poor compared to overall society, they are disproportionately represented in the prison population. Few studies have examined the correlation between race and class. One of the few that did, (cited in Elliott Currie's Crime and Punishment in America), looked at the crime, arrest and incarceration rates in a poor black neighborhood and a poor white neighborhood in Ohio.
The not so surprising conclusion was that it is the poor, regardless of race, who bear the brunt of the war on crime, which sounds better than a "war on the poor." This explains why whites are in prisons and the relative absence of wealthy minorities from prisons and jails." (Taken from Paul Wright's 'The Crime of Being Poor')

It isn't difficult to track social ills back to wealth disparity. Low income area Schools are shitty because they are underfunded. Employment opportunities for people from underfunded schools tend to suck, and a lowsy start makes it less likely to get the further education required for better careers. People with lousy employment opportunities are more likely to suffer from crime or be arrested themselves. Address the wealth disparity and other problems can get addressed.

Seems like we have a disagreement over what is a cause and what is a symptom.
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Old 09-22-2012, 05:01 PM   #110
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It certainly looks bad if less than 2/3rds of all students are getting more than 3/4's of available scholarships and grants, but there's a few other numbers I'd need to know before I can tell if it is damning. Taking a closer look white students make up 61.8% of the student body, 5.5% of them get private scholarships. Black or African American students make up 14% percent of the student population, and 4.4% of them get private scholarships. The average awarded to whites was $2,368, and blacks was $2,671 (and No, this is not playing into AshleyO's hopes to see me cry about white victimization).
That doesn't say anything about the approval rate of scholarships; It only measures people who already have them. That is not where you will find the difference. You also might want to look at student loan source preference trends by race and possible reasons why.

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Of course 5% of a bigger number means white students "get more", but on an individual level they aren't that far off. Those statistics also do not include awards that are restricted by race, so there is an incomplete data set. The distribution in funding seems to run relatively consistent with
the student population. 60 something percent of students get 60 something percent of the funding. In any case those statistics don't seem to provide
any information on how class affects the likelihood of a given student getting help. A family that is struggling to get by is not going to have the time or resources to help their kids fight for the aid they need.
Only 5% of all scholarships and 10% of individual scholarships consider the students race among eligibility criteria.

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On crime - the economic class is also a strong factor for both victims and incarceration rates. "Refusing to address the role that class plays in the criminal justice system, and politics in general, makes it all but impossible to address the root causes of 2 million people behind bars in the U.S. Race and racism do play a factor, but only indirectly. To the extent that
blacks and Hispanics are disproportionately poor compared to overall society, they are disproportionately represented in the prison population. Few studies have examined the correlation between race and class. One of the few that did, (cited in Elliott Currie's Crime and Punishment in America), looked at the crime, arrest and incarceration rates in a poor black neighborhood and a poor white neighborhood in Ohio. The not so surprising conclusion was that it is the poor, regardless of race, who bear the brunt of the war on crime, which sounds better than a "war on the poor." This explains why whites are in prisons and the relative absence of wealthy minorities from prisons and jails." (Taken from Paul Wright's 'The Crime of Being Poor')
I read that article and that man is a fucking moron. Aside from that blatant tokenism he liked to use rather then provide hard numbers, it's beyond stupid to say the wealthy commit violent crimes at anywhere near the rate of the poor, especially in light that there is information that shows that the wealthy are the victims of crimes at an increasingly lower rate. I understand that there is preferential treatment given to the wealthy and that their conviction rate is naturally going to be lower as they can afford a defense. That doesn't change that their wealth is going to stop them from reporting crimes they are a victim of. Unless you can show me that there isn't a correlation between the chances of a white man being the victim of crime and the chances of a white man committing a crime within the same class, I'm going to discount that as color blind racism.

And it's infuriating that he won't recognize that regardless of class, white people are given racial preference dozens of times over. His whole fucking argument is literally

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A central part of the mythology of the criminal justice system in the United States is that everyone is treated equally, regardless of his or her race or class. The concept that no one is above the law is a noble one. Like many good ideas, reality usually lags far behind the rhetoric.

Recent years have seen a growing criticism of the criminal justice system on the flawed premise that that the system itself is racist. Proponents of this position support their argument by pointing to statistics that show that black men make up 6% of the national population but almost half of the nation's prison population. Or that at any given time one third of the U.S. population of black men is under criminal justice control, either in prison, jail, probation or parole. (See David Cole's No Equal Justice for a detailed overview of this position.) The end result: a stunning and disproportionately large percentage of black men under criminal justice control, is taken as prima facie evidence that the very system is inherently racist, at least in its outcome.


No one, it seems, is willing to discuss the role that class plays in determining who does and does not go to prison. If the law prohibits rich and poor alike from stealing bread, and both steal bread, how come only the poor go to prison for doing so? The proponents of the institutional racism theory do not claim that rich blacks and Latinos are being herded into prison and jail in vast numbers, because they are not. And what about the whites in prison? Do they count for nothing? White prisoners tend to share one thing with their black and Hispanic compatriots: poverty. Most prisoners report incomes of less than $8,000 a year in the year prior to coming to prison. A majority were unemployed at the time of their arrest. Tellingly, in a society that measures everything, no government statistics are kept on pre incarceration earnings and employment histories. Few researchers seem interested in proving the obvious.
Are you fucking kidding me? "Recent years have seen a growing criticism of the criminal justice system on the flawed premise that that the system itself is racist. And what about the white people in prison? Do they count for nothing?" The proponents of the institutional racism theory, White prisoners tend to share one thing with their black and Hispanic compatriots- This has racist denial and marginalization all over it. Fuck this privileged cunt and his bullshit, and fuck him even more for trying to lift us up and pretend like we're all equal under his cause.

These are all unbiased to class and stark examples of how even though nobodies really out to get us, it just sort of happens that way.

Quote:
Since 1992, when the Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention Act (JJDPA) was amended, the federal government has acknowledged that youth of different races and ethnicities are treated differently by the justice system. As such the federal government has promoted policies to ease those disparities. The Republican Congress reauthorized the JJDPA in 2003.

In a seminal meta-analysis conducted by researchers Carl Pope and Richard Feyerherm for the Justice Department, two-thirds of the studies of state and local juvenile justice systems they analyzed found that there was a "race effect" at some stage of the juvenile justice process that affected outcomes for minorities for the worse. Their research suggested that "the effects of race may be felt at various decision points, they may be direct or indirect, and they may accumulate as youth continue through the system."
Blacks, on average, are about 8 times more likely to be in state or federal prison than whites. By the end of the 1990s, 21 percent of young black poorly-educated men were in state or federal prison compared to an imprisonment rate of 2.9 percent for young white male dropouts.

Like incarceration rates, the cumulative risks of imprisonment fall with increasing education. The cumulative risk of imprisonment is 3 to 4 times higher for high school dropouts than for high school graduates. About 1 out of 9 white male high school dropouts, born in the late 1960s, would serve prison time before age 35 compared to 1 out of 25 high school graduates.
The cumulative risk of incarceration is about 5 times higher for black men. Incredibly, a black male dropout, born 1965–69, had nearly a 60 percent chance of serving time in prison by the end of the 1990s. At the close of the decade, prison time had indeed become modal for young black men who failed to graduate from high school. The cumulative risks of imprisonment also increased to a high level among men who had completed only 12 years of schooling. Nearly 1 out of 5 black men with just 12 years of schooling went to prison by their early thirties. The share of the population with prison records is particularly striking among non-college men. Whereas few non-college white men have prison records, nearly a third of black men with less than a college education have been to prison.
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Old 09-22-2012, 05:04 PM   #111
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DISCUSSION AND CONCLUSION
This analysis examines two interpretations of social isolation, and the effect each has on the rates of neighborhood crime. The first interpretation views social isolation mainly as class division within the black community. In a subset of a larger body of work, Wilson maintains that two structural changes during the 1960s, the expansion of the public sector of the economy and the civil rights movement, improved the opportunities for working and middle class blacks, who then migrated away. This class-selective depopulation of traditionally black areas removed the
vertical integration of black communities and left behind an isolated underclass that has few links with mainstream society. The resulting class bifurcation in black America is viewed as a major factor in the formation of ghettos. The second interpretation, largely from Massey, emphasizes how racial isolation limits the life chances of blacks in segregated communities. Through discrimination and ongoing institutional arrangements, the ability of blacks to reside in white areas is severely constrained, consigning blacks to areas of multiple disadvantage. The result is a de facto isolation of blacks from white opportunities, white job information networks, white capital, and countless other resources necessary for a successful mainstream life. There are several major findings of this paper. First, this study demonstrates that racial isolation is not necessarily class isolation. Given the socioeconomic differences between blacks and whites, the temptation is to consign as heuristic any distinction between racial and class isolation. But in the real world neighborhoods of this study, one does not blend into the other. On the contrary, these two forms of social isolation occupy distinct geographic areas, and one has an effect on crime, whereas the other does not. Prior literature has avoided this issue primarely because the conceptual and empirical distinction between racial and class isolation is not easily teased out at the city-level. This study, in contrast, demonstrates the utility of neighborhood level data for sorting out the macrosocial path between social isolation and serious crime. Second, racial isolation has profound effects on the rates of violent behavior. Completed and attempted homicide, robbery and **** all showed strong associations with racial isolation. This conforms to the view that the isolation of blacks from whites has negative consequences, in this case serious violence. But despite the strong link with violence, no link is observed with property crime. This pattern is observed not only in the first eight models estimated, but in all other models in this analysis. The robust effects of racial isolation on violence and the complete absence of effects on property crime might be too conspicuous to explain away as the random vagaries of sociological models. On closer scrutiny the findings support the notion that racial isolation, especially over the long term, breeds a cultural inversion that emphasizes violence and other negative behaviors. Anderson’s (1993) ethnographic research demonstrates vividly how young ghetto males, isolated from white mainstream life, and with little hope of obtaining meaningful employment and supporting a family, turn to male peers to help foster an image based on physical prowess and toughness. In linking ghetto-specific beliefs and behavior to the geographic isolation of blacks, Anderson intertwines the micro-level dynamics of ghetto culture with the macro-level dynamics of racial isolation. The findings of this paper support that frame of reference. However, this analysis makes the causal assumption that racial isolation leads to increases in the rates crime. But the reverse may also be true. Namely, rises in neighborhood crime prompts those with the financial resources to leave - - or stay away in the first place. Obviously, personal safety and neighborhood security are prominent factors in the decision to buy a home. But if this is the only link between the two variables (i.e., crime leads to racial isolation), then there are two major problems to reconcile. First, why only violent crime? If crime leads to racial isolation, than serious property crime surely is factored into the same equation. Granted, violence is more fear producing, but the idea that robbery rates make a neighborhood unattractive while high burglary rates do not seems doubtful. Second, why only whites and not middle class blacks? Recalling that class isolation had no link with crime (violent or otherwise), then one must accept the view that middle class blacks fail to respond to issues of personal safety and neighborhood security. This seems dubious as well. Perhaps the more realistic scenario is that a reciprocal causation exists, in which racial isolation raises the rates of crime, which in turns breeds more racial isolation. The third major finding is that after an exhaustive search of these data, no link is observed between class isolation and serious crime. Class isolation, neither in its general form (class isolation) nor in its racially bounded form (black class isolation), had an association with the rates of serious crime. This is not to say that class isolation does not exist. Indeed it does, as these data reveal, especially so in the black dominated areas of the city. To that extent, these results concur with prior evidence that documents the class bifurcation in black America. What is at issue though are the consequences of that class isolation. The multivariate findings may be at odds with the claim that the absence of working and middle class blacks from traditional black communities is a major factor in the social and economic decline of these areas. Perhaps the consequences of black depopulation are overestimated, especially in comparison to other major trends. Despite impressive gains, nonpoor blacks still represent a comparatively small proportion of the total U.S. population. Their limited numbers as well as ongoing discrimination and lingering structural barriers, means that the combined capital of the black working and middle class is relatively modest by any account. It pales in comparison to the combined accumulation among whites. So it seems unlikely that the outmigration of the black working and middle class has the necessary entropy to cause the social and economic catastrophe that has befallen black communities. On the contrary, the reluctance of whites to accept black neighbors - - the driving force behind racial segregation in America - - is what places mainstream life beyond the reach of substantial numbers of urban blacks. The movement of whites away from black areas represents a large-scale redistribution of tax revenue, schools, public utilities, employment opportunities and so forth. By its sheer size and momentum, white flight strips away from black neighborhoods a wide range of resources necessary for a satisfactory social and economic life. Despite the physical distance between poor and nonpoor blacks, the social distance between them might also be overstated. The outmigration of the black middle class perhaps stretched but not completely severed the network ties that bind these communities. Local institutions, such as black churches, may help maintain a web of interpersonal relations that transcends geography, income and social class. Churches, in particular, might serve to blunt the force of social isolation by maintaining the weak ties necessary for social mobility (Granovetter 1995). Research in this area could give structural meaning to the adage that Sunday, with its morning church services, is the most segregated day of the week.
tl:dr Blacks and whites within the same class were imprisoned differently, the justice system is racist at multiple points of intersection regardless of class, and when both class and race were controlled for, segregation of class did not have any impact on crime while the segregation of race did.

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It isn't difficult to track social ills back to wealth disparity. Low income area Schools are shitty because they are underfunded. Employment opportunities for people from underfunded schools tend to suck, and a lowsy start makes it less likely to get the further education required for better careers. People with lousy employment opportunities are more likely to suffer from crime or be arrested themselves. Address the wealth disparity and other problems can get addressed.
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Old 09-22-2012, 05:05 PM   #112
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You're ignoring race, again. More specifically, you're ignoring that PoC are substantially disadvantaged in all of those instances to white people within their own class, and that difference broadens the closer to poverty they become. Literally, being a PoC makes being poor more pronounced in addition to stacking up with the omnipresent and inescapable systemic racism. I feel like I need to say that again: PoC are significantly disadvantaged regardless of their class. Fixing the differences in wealth will not suddenly change that; seven angels will not descend from the heavens and wrap themselves around us to uplift our lives into a brave new world. White people will get what they want and the rest will be thrown under the bus. Consult any point in American history where poverty or wealth was a stark index and you will not see anything different.

You know what? That really gets to me. How do you expect PoC to be motivated for class equality when we aren't even on the same level of poor? We're not even equals, Jonathan. This isn't just a class difference like it is for you. This is class + caste for what is becoming the majority of the American population. Any possible discourse or partnership needs to be free of that thing you insist will just work itself out or get it's place in line assuming that you even acknowledge it's there.

http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/soc/facul.../ASRv69n2p.pdf

http://www.lsu.edu/capergroup/resour...r2005-wp02.pdf
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Old 09-22-2012, 05:09 PM   #113
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First post should have read "That doesn't change that their wealth isn't going to stop them from reporting crimes they are a victim of."

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Seems like we have a disagreement over what is a cause and what is a symptom.
I'll get to this in a minute.
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Old 09-22-2012, 07:09 PM   #114
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I acutely aware of what the cause is. My very existence is a symptom of that cause and I am reminded of it every day of my life.

Let's be clear: White people and people of color did not start on, nor have we even reached, a state of equal footing,. It has always been and continues to be this way, and this has become the natural state of things. To say nothing of the people outside of my race, blacks simply were and continued to be denied the enablers to succeed. From convict leasing and the imminent explosion of black prison populations immediately following the civil war and lasting until the 19-fucking-20's, outright lynching of successful black men, HOLC redlining mortgages in black neighborhoods so that they defaulted far more often, social security being outright denied to black men and women when the poverty rate for the elderly was over 50%, the grievous impact that the Vietnam war had on black households, the steroid reforms that the judicial system took on and consequently began to destroy black families immediately after the civil rights movement, the ease that a white person can get away with murdering a black person in cold blood every year, to the blatant denial that this is even a problem - to say nothing of the intangible things and what they say about us as a society when a white person can be confronted with a black prison population and immediately ask back

Quote:
Why do so many black people commit violent crimes?

I live in St. Louis and it is just out of control. This week a firefighter tried to help a man out of a wrecked car, and it turns out the car was stolen so he killed the man trying to help him. I just can't believe it.

Additional Details
You guys got me wrong, I'm not racist, I just think it's fairly obvious that black people commit WAY more violent crimes than other races. I just don't understand it.
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Believe it.

I don't know why. I don't think it is genetic. I think everyone has free will. I think black culture supports crime more so than Asian or white culture does. It seems to be ingrained in blacks that it's cool to commit crimes.

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They suffer from a lack of 'impulse control'

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Check out this link and it may amaze you! take the time to read the whole thing before you jump to the conclusion im a racist! Thanks!
Source(s):
http://www.white-history.com/usacrime.ht…

5 people rated this as good
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The race has a low level of ethics and morals.

49 people rated this as good
Quote:
The Grudge.

14 people rated this as good
and not get a second glance.

Don't misunderstand. The cause and the symptom are the same and an inequality in wealth is nothing new for some of us. It's business as usual.
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Old 09-22-2012, 08:55 PM   #115
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Ok, that's lot to slog through, but I figured I'd at least stop to first say that while I don't know what the fuck is up with "The Grudge" (wasn't that a shitty horror movie, what am I missing?), those other quotes you pulled and the people who "liked" them or whatever are fucking scum.
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Old 09-22-2012, 09:05 PM   #116
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The question itself is scum. Black people aren't more likely to commit crime. It's a stereotype that is perpetuated by the media, racial segregation (86% of white people live in communities wherein less then 1% of it's population is minorities), and the epidemic arrest and incarceration rate of black people.

Also, I'm inclined to believe the "the grudge" is a reference to a toxic idea that perpetuates in which black people are now trying to have our revenge on white people. Slavery ended 150 years ago and racism is over, after all.
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Old 09-22-2012, 10:07 PM   #117
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Being confronted with that and just assuming more black people are criminals is fucked up.

You see a disproportionate prison population, you have to ask what's going on.
People that are in prisons who shouldn't be is a problem.
People who are not in prisons who should be is a problem.

If they are there wrongfully, then get 'em the hell out and figure out a way to try to make up for the fuck up. If they are there for legitimate cause.. well we can't just cut a bunch of actual criminals loose that would be silly, right?

Things need to be reviewed and people responsible should be held accountable. I'd say paraded through the streets and flogged for dereliction of duty, but that probably wouldn't get much public support.

If it's a case of under-reported crimes... Every time someone shrugs off an assault or the like and doesn't report it, that's potentially skewing the inequality statistics* . It might turn out that the justice system is broken for many other reasons, but they can only work with what they got, under reported crime isn't helping anyone and makes bad situations worse.

***It is not my intent to blame victims of crimes for prison inequality***

As Versus said, maybe "nobodies really out to get [them], it just sort of happens that way".
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Old 09-22-2012, 11:12 PM   #118
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As Versus said, maybe "nobodies really out to get [them], it just sort of happens that way".
I'm afraid that you might not understand what I mean when I say this.
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Old 09-23-2012, 12:08 AM   #119
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Being confronted with that and just assuming more black people are criminals is fucked up.
No, it's not just fucked up - It's normal. I guarantee if you ask a group of white friends or white family when there are no people of color around why 38% of the prison population is black while 12% of America is black, you will get this answer.

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You see a disproportionate prison population, you have to ask what's going on.
Well, if you are statistically less likely then a white male within your age group to commit a crime (as is the case with illegal drug use in the ages of 12-17), or even had the same statistical likely hood to commit a crime as a white male (as is the case with carrying a weapon illegally or assault in the ages 12-17), but were arrested for offenses at twice the rate (as is with drug use and weapons), or three times the rate (as is with assault) while your race represented 36%... 48%... of the arrests for that offense....
And at the same time you were over 6 times more likely to receive a harsher sentence, even in instances where you are a first time offender and they are second or third times offenders...

You kind of get past the point of needing to ask what's going on. It's pretty much right in front of you, especially if you grow up being aware of race rather then learn about in your twenty somethings.

Oh, as a small aside: Have you ever done drugs between the ages of 12-17? Marijuana, maybe?
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Old 09-23-2012, 02:04 PM   #120
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Aside first, nope. Never really interested in any chemical entertainment. When I was clubbing more frequently I'd smoke a couple cloves with all the cool kids but didn't even really start drinking out till much much later. Pro-legalization though, for medical or recreational or whatever purposes. People should be able to use whatever drugs they want, just not while performing certain tasks (driving, operating machinery, etc.)

Selective enforcement is no good - the laws are supposed to apply to everyone equally. If the sentencing guide says to add or subtract penalties based on ethnicity it would be very clearly a systemic issue. Maybe this is semantics... Police officers picking who to search, judges handing out harsher sentences... I see those as the actions of individual assholes and not policy. They can and should be replaced at a minimum. This can happen with better and more rigid oversight, but that comes with a cost. The more I look at it, the more racial inequality and wealth inequality look like a "chicken and the egg" kind of problem. We can both see people are downtrodden, I just have a different take on what puts and keeps them there.
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Old 09-23-2012, 04:22 PM   #121
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Jon. Even in a communist revolution where every person loses their class status; there can still be racism.

It's systemic AND cultural.

Jesus, man. I don't get why you're so strident about proving that racism isn't systemic when it is. Are you trolling or something?
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Old 09-23-2012, 05:49 PM   #122
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Selective enforcement is no good - the laws are supposed to apply to everyone equally. If the sentencing guide says to add or subtract penalties based on ethnicity it would be very clearly a systemic issue. Maybe this is semantics... Police officers picking who to search, judges handing out harsher sentences... I see those as the actions of individual assholes and not policy. They can and should be replaced at a minimum. This can happen with better and more rigid oversight, but that comes with a cost. The more I look at it, the more racial inequality and wealth inequality look like a "chicken and the egg" kind of problem. We can both see people are downtrodden, I just have a different take on what puts and keeps them there.
You're kidding... I just... Honestly, I wouldn't believe that you're serious if I haven't seen this so many times before. Jonathan, your privilege is showing hard core right now. I have shown you a nationwide trend. This is not location isolated, this is not time isolated, this is not class isolated, this is race isolated. You can clearly see that. Do you I need to sit down and explain how racism moves beyond economic disadvantages? Do you understand that the wealth disparity suffered by minorities is only one of a myriad of racism's manifestations? This is not officer Fritz or Judge Anders, this is not individual people being assholes, this is everybody. This. Is. The. System. It is not semantics because our entire society is this way. 70% of white people have been shown to have white preference. 1 in 5 white peop0le have been shown to have overtly racist beliefs. It does not need to be written down in protocol or made a part of policy because this is the way that white people think. This is what racism has done to society. This is the way that YOU think. You can't separate yourself from them by adding in the qualifier "asshole," not when I have clearly shown to you a systemic problem that transcends the boundary of class and overlaps into finance, education, emotion, physical safety, culture, representation, entertainment and media, and then you still deny that this comes from anywhere or is a product of anything but a person's wealth. You are giving me half answers and aren't even backing up your statements anymore. Like I said earlier: If you have the truth of the matter then you will be able to argue it.
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Old 09-23-2012, 08:54 PM   #123
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I almost feel like to give you the benefit of the doubt we'd have to back up to really basic sociology/anthropology shit. So you that aside from the legal system, there's a lot of bias around classism that allows people to get away with shit they shouldn't? Or there's an awful lot of people who support things like drug testing the poor? This is because our society is systematically classist. Its in every part of society and unless onself is poor (and even then, I know poor people who aren't on assistance but are very prejudice against those who are), chances are one absorbs all the classist rhetoric and repeats it and believes it. Not every poor person is against the system, and the reason for that is is because hegemony impacts everything, not just the legal system. There is no escaping it, and no such thing as being objective or neutral when it comes to social matters.

Well, its the same for racism. Actually, racism has a whole lot to do with classism (we believe the poor are lazy, and its just a coincidence that people of colour are disproportionately poor? Seriously?), but its just as insidious and rampant and inside all of us. Laws that are racist use supposedly colour blind language to hide the fact they are racist (such as Arizona's immigration laws, drug testing laws in Florida, voter purges during elections), its just apparently not racist as long as you don't explicitly say the race you're targetting. Targetting black youth? Say inner city kids. Targeting Latin@s? Say immigration reform.
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Old 09-23-2012, 09:40 PM   #124
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Honestly? I think Native Americans.
Yeah, I think so too. I had a few American Indian friends when I was in the army, some who came from a reservation and some who grew up in the city. Hands down all but 2 of them preferred the reservation since there they didn't have to worry about putting up with the prejudices of being American Indian.
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Old 09-23-2012, 09:59 PM   #125
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My step-brother's wife works at a museum type place and puts up with... well... I'm glad I don't do that. I'd have grey hair.
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