WitchCraft

[Tiphareth]

Originally Posted by Saya

No its not. Its a statement of nonbelief, not belief. It requires no leap of faith to take things as they are and not have to create a god or believe that by waving a wand you can change things.

Belief/nonbelief...that's simply semantics.

You make a choice and take a stand on that..your way of seeing the world.
Through experience that may or may not change.
Don't delude yourself that your personal way of making sense of the world isn't a belief system based on personal or collective experience.
You go to bed at night in the 'belief' that there is a good chance that you will wake in the morning. You switch on the kettle in the belief that it will boil ready for your cup of tea. And the chances are that they will...you know this from experience. But there is always the chance that these things wont happen. And yet you still believe that they will because we could not handle the disorder. So we ALL build our lives on such leaps of faith.

[KontanKarite]

Knowing that my stove is going to heat my tea water is not an act of faith. If it doesn't work, it's because it's broken in some way, not because the laws of physics just decided to not apply to reality anymore.

Knowing things and having faith in things are NOT the same thing.

Faith is essentially Hope with a dash of knowing and a dash of doubt.

[Tiphareth]

[quote=KontanKarite;572292]

Originally Posted by Tiphareth

If you fully believe that god would save you from impending doom and you pray about it, you either survive or you don't. Funny, the Christian justifies failed prayers as the will of God, while answered prayers are clearly evidence that God is real.

As for the Gnostics, they were fucking awesome. They at least understood that without the action of their own will and hands, NOTHING would get done.

Mankind takes action and creates results FASTER than God.

Sure but my point is that you laud Christianity for having the balls to stand up for itself whilst denegrating Wiccans for being wishy washy. that may indeed be the case but what i am saying is that both prayer and magick alike are only 'verifiable' in the experience of the believer...it's not possible to valourise one at the expense of the other or even make judgements about their efficacy.

And i'm not sure you can define Gnosticism as any particular system or group...there were so many 'gnostic' groups with so many different beliefs and practices it's hard to put your finger on any of them.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Tiphareth

Belief/nonbelief...that's simply semantics.

You make a choice and take a stand on that..your way of seeing the world.
Through experience that may or may not change.
Don't delude yourself that your personal way of making sense of the world isn't a belief system based on personal or collective experience.
You go to bed at night in the 'belief' that there is a good chance that you will wake in the morning. You switch on the kettle in the belief that it will boil ready for your cup of tea. And the chances are that they will...you know this from experience. But there is always the chance that these things wont happen. And yet you still believe that they will because we could not handle the disorder. So we ALL build our lives on such leaps of faith.

Well yes belief shapes my life, but I am a religious person.

However even an athiest who assumes they will wake up in the morning does not eliminate the possibility that they will die in their sleep, they just don't think about it and take it for granted they'll wake up. Lots of things are givens that we know, water will boil at 100 degrees, and tea will be done after its steeps for a few minutes. We KNOW that once we pour the teapot blood isn't going to pour out. A religious person however might be waiting and expecting for signs of the end of days, so they don't quite KNOW that.

[Tiphareth]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

Knowing that my stove is going to heat my tea water is not an act of faith. If it doesn't work, it's because it's broken in some way, not because the laws of physics just decided to not apply to reality anymore.

Knowing things and having faith in things are NOT the same thing.

Faith is essentially Hope with a dash of knowing and a dash of doubt.

Of course it's an act of faith...you believe that when you flick the switch the stove will come on because it always does. But it might not.
When a believer prays he believes that his god will listen. But he might not.
So what convinces you that your stove will turn on?
What convinces the believer his god will hear his prayers?
Surely it is experience...personal to you and personal to him.
The experiences may be different but that does not mean that either is less 'real'.

[honeythorn]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

As for the Gnostics, they were fucking awesome. They at least understood that without the action of their own will and hands, NOTHING would get done.

That's got nowt to do with Gnostiscism Kontan, that's just basic common sense. I've yet to meet a fellow pagan ( no not wiccans, don't know any of those I'm afraid) who doesn't believe that. If you fuck something up you sort it out. That is in fact the quickest way to get things sorted out. One might do the odd spell or ritual or meditation , whatever to help if it's really needed but usually it isn't so most don't actually bother.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Tiphareth

Of course it's an act of faith...you believe that when you flick the switch the stove will come on because it always does. But it might not.
When a believer prays he believes that his god will listen. But he might not.
So what convinces you that your stove will turn on?
What convinces the believer his god will hear his prayers?
Surely it is experience...personal to you and personal to him.
The experiences may be different but that does not mean that either is less 'real'.

God, there's this comedian I saw on Just For Laughs one time, can't remember her name, but she was talking about Oprah magazine and how Oprah has an article called "What I Know For Sure." And what Oprah knew for sure was that the sun would rise the next day, and called it her "sun faith".

Thats not faith, the comedian pointed out. ITS A SCIENTIFIC FACT.

I know the stove will flick on as its working properly and we have power. If its not working properly or if a fuse blew, that is still within the realm of the sane person's belief. What isn't part of the belief is that angels are pedalling bicycles that are giving it power. We know this to be true because we know and understand how electricity and electronics work.

[Tiphareth]

Originally Posted by Saya

Well yes belief shapes my life, but I am a religious person.

However even an athiest who assumes they will wake up in the morning does not eliminate the possibility that they will die in their sleep, they just don't think about it and take it for granted they'll wake up. Lots of things are givens that we know, water will boil at 100 degrees, and tea will be done after its steeps for a few minutes. We KNOW that once we pour the teapot blood isn't going to pour out. A religious person however might be waiting and expecting for signs of the end of days, so they don't quite KNOW that.

Absolutely! We know that water boils at 100 degrees but if you change the pressure it boils at a different temperature. But in your day to day experience the water always boils at the same temperature. But that's not an absolute don't you see.
And when you sleep there are very good odds you will wake up. But what if you are terminally ill...then all the odds change and you see things differently.

The point is that it is our experiences which determine how we view things...there are no absolutes and it is a delusion to think that there are.
We create/impose a form of order on the world because it would be impossible to live our lives if we didn't.

But it may be conceivable surely that when we go to bed tonight none of us will wake up because they guy on the corner who believes the end of days is upon us might just possibly be right.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Tiphareth

Absolutely! We know that water boils at 100 degrees but if you change the pressure it boils at a different temperature. But in your day to day experience the water always boils at the same temperature. But that's not an absolute don't you see.
And when you sleep there are very good odds you will wake up. But what if you are terminally ill...then all the odds change and you see things differently.

The point is that it is our experiences which determine how we view things...there are no absolutes and it is a delusion to think that there are.
We create/impose a form of order on the world because it would be impossible to live our lives if we didn't.

But it may be conceivable surely that when we go to bed tonight none of us will wake up because they guy on the corner who believes the end of days is upon us might just possibly be right.

Water needs at least 100 degrees to boil, thats what we know. It can be hotter than that, sure, but I don't really stick a thermometer in the kettle just to make sure, I know that if its boiling its at least 100 degrees and thats all I need know. No one thinks its always at 100 degrees.

That has to do with our world view and what we take for granted on an individual basis. None of that requires faith or religion, however religion can affect it. An atheist can take everything at face value and what they can logically and reasonably understand, but a religious person again is looking for God in their morning tea.

[Tiphareth]

Originally Posted by Saya

God, there's this comedian I saw on Just For Laughs one time, can't remember her name, but she was talking about Oprah magazine and how Oprah has an article called "What I Know For Sure." And what Oprah knew for sure was that the sun would rise the next day, and called it her "sun faith".

Thats not faith, the comedian pointed out. ITS A SCIENTIFIC FACT.

I know the stove will flick on as its working properly and we have power. If its not working properly or if a fuse blew, that is still within the realm of the sane person's belief. What isn't part of the belief is that angels are pedalling bicycles that are giving it power. We know this to be true because we know and understand how electricity and electronics work.

No we DON'T know!!!!

And it is not a FACT that the sun will rise tomorrow...it's belief!!!
The universe is not governed by our expectations of it.
You believe it will rise because it always has in your experience.
Honestly...i'm not trying to be argumentative but making the point that we impose order because it is convenient to do so. In reality there are NO certainties.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Tiphareth

No we DON'T know!!!!

And it is not a FACT that the sun will rise tomorrow...it's belief!!!
The universe is not governed by our expectations of it.
You believe it will rise because it always has in your experience.
Honestly...i'm not trying to be argumentative but making the point that we impose order because it is convenient to do so. In reality there are NO certainties.

It is a fact. Unless something horribly wrong happens in the universe its going to happen. Its not happening because we want it to its happening because thats how the universe works. The universe is not chaotic, there is an underlying order.

[Alan]

Originally Posted by FatGoth

How many Buddhists have been killed in Tibet because religion go against the type of Communism China practices.

Buddhism is legal in China, dipshit.
I'm not forgiving China's police state, but don't try to talk about shit you don't know.

[Alan]

Originally Posted by Tiphareth

Of course it's an act of faith...you believe that when you flick the switch the stove will come on because it always does. But it might not.

So is my belief that the next time I fart someone will break your nose is as reasonable as your belief that next time you flick a switch the switch will work?

[Catch]

Buddhists don't believe in any God or Gods so definetly no magic either, just meditation. Turns out meditation meand thinking deeply about a topic. Only a religious person would turn thinking about something into some kind of whacko plot against everyone.... (Sometimes I do. Most of the time I think the other person is crazy, and then they are.)

[Ben Lahnger]

Oh, I don't know ...

[SweetJane]

Even as I now profess, my atheism, I have to check under my bed for satan every time you post something like that, Ben.

Man, there are some seriously stupid people on this board.

Ok.

Logical beleifs are based on facts. Facts can be proven. Magic cannot be proven to work using the scientific method. Therfor, beleiving in magic is illogical.

Why is this so fucking hard for people to accept?

[Tiphareth]

Originally Posted by Saya

It is a fact. Unless something horribly wrong happens in the universe its going to happen. Its not happening because we want it to its happening because thats how the universe works. The universe is not chaotic, there is an underlying order.

There is absolutely no certainty that the sun 'will rise' tomorrow, only a very high probability based on our experience that it always has so always will.

After all 'scientific fact' five hundred years or so ago told us that the sun rises...but our observations and experience change and we now know the sun doesn't go anywhere...we simply revolve to face it. There really is no such thing as objective FACT....it is all about the interpretation of the observer!!


And the universe is extremely chaotic. Newton's 2nd law of thermodynamics states that 'every system tends towards entropy'. Just because we cannot see it happening, because our time of observation is so relatively short, does not mean that it is not happening.
And while we're on that law it's one of the arguments that theists use for the existence of god...that life itself is totally contrary to the natural condition of chaos. It is the sheer implausibility that the complex conditions which allow life to happen goes totally against our understanding of how the universe is known to work. And for all our knowledge we still cannot actually create life in a test-tube!
I stress that its not an argument that i would use to justify belief....as i've said before you cannot and should not use science to justify your belief in god but it's interesting to note how many highly respected physicists are also theists and in certain areas of quantum theory physics and metaphysics come very close.
The whole issue of Dark Matter is a good example.

[Still Jack]

Originally Posted by SweetJane

Even as I now profess, my atheism, I have to check under my bed for satan every time you post something like that, Ben.

Man, there are some seriously stupid people on this board.

Ok.

Logical beleifs are based on facts. Facts can be proven. Magic cannot be proven to work using the scientific method. Therfor, beleiving in magic is illogical.

Why is this so fucking hard for people to accept?

I love you.

[Tiphareth]

And just another quickie about scientific fact. Are atoms particles or are they wave forms?
The scientist notes that they can behave as both according to the conditions in which they are observed but they cannot exist as both apparently...and yet they do!!!.
So where is the unassailable objectivity in that?...atoms actually contradict their own modes of existence and we build models of the universe based on that paradox because we can't make sense of it otherwise.

[Ben Lahnger]

SweetJane - as an athiest and former Catholic, I still think about looking under the bed for Satan when I POST things like that. Then I shake myself, remember what I know to be true and laugh my ass off.

Actually, no position is unassailable, especially when you are debating someone's beliefs. I always consider how everything we think we know is shaped by perception, which is highly filtered and malleable. In fact, what we state is a fact can be questioned solely on the basis of the questionable credibility of the measuring device - the human brain.

But in general, people believe a lot of unbelievable crap, and trying to use logic to sway their thinking is like trying to convince Paris Hilton to wear underwear.

[Ben Lahnger]

BTW - I had a chance to pick up "Asimov's Guide to the Bible" on the cheap at Barnes and Noble yesterday and I passed. Now that I come back to this thread, I wish I had bought it.

[Methadrine]

Originally Posted by Tiphareth

as i've said before you cannot and should not use science to justify your belief in god..

So why the hell are you bringing it up then? Science and god does not mix, and should be separated at all costs.

Originally Posted by Tiphareth

..but it's interesting to note how many highly respected physicists are also theists and in certain areas of quantum theory physics and metaphysics come very close.

Yes, because these respected physicists are also humans, and humans like to believe in things they can't explain. The metaphysics are just what they say it is, abstract theories with no basis in reality . Not facts, until we got a working model that can explain why certain things happen.

[PortraitOfSanity]

You can't use science to justify your belief in God, but you can use it to prove he doesn't exist...

[AsylumVoid]

Originally Posted by FatGoth

It is possibly this is a Norwegian thing only, but in Norway most feminists and most feminist organizations hate BDSM. I did not stop to consider that this might be a problem here and not in the rest of the world. I to consider myself a feminist in that I am for equal rights. I should have worded my reply differently.

My mother have never tried to control my sexuality, but she do not like it, and that is fine, she can have her opinion. I will have mine. I guess why she thinks as she do is that in her mind relationships should always be equal, even when both parties want an un equal relationship.

I never said she wastrying to control your sexuality, however being against BDSM is a belief in controlling sexuality, if you catch my drift? However you are not her, so asking you about it is pointless.

Originally Posted by FatGoth

I have never said one should not question other's beliefs. But there is a way to question what other believe in a respectful and intelligent manner, and then there is the throwing shit method. I have several Atheist friends who manage to saw what they mean without calling religious pepole stupid, manipulated or other such things. And even if one disagree with someone, it is still quite possible to respect them.

I agree.

Originally Posted by FatGoth

You can explain attraction, but can you really explain the emotion love my chemicals? If you gave pepole drugs to release the chemicals in question, if such a thing was possible, would the following feeling really be love? It might be my romantic side, but for me, love is not just processes in my brain, it is something more.

Just because something is wonderful doesn't mean it exists in a vaccuum, love is definitely a chemical process in the brain. Yes, it would really be love, it would release the same chamicals and create the same process to produce the feeling of love. You are romanticising it and in the context of this conversation I don't think that is appropriate.

Originally Posted by FatGoth

Perhaps that is so. My religion certainly give me purpose.

Then it is so.

[AsylumVoid]

Originally Posted by Tiphareth

And just another quickie about scientific fact. Are atoms particles or are they wave forms?
The scientist notes that they can behave as both according to the conditions in which they are observed but they cannot exist as both apparently...and yet they do!!!.
So where is the unassailable objectivity in that?...atoms actually contradict their own modes of existence and we build models of the universe based on that paradox because we can't make sense of it otherwise.

On a microscopic level everything is very strangely unpredictable, unlike on the macroscopic level.

At the moment they are looking into string theory which if proven will make physics on the microscopic level much more predictable, so far it has worked very well. Science has some very abstract ideas that you have to get your head around.

Search for "The Elegant Universe" on google, very informative.