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Old 08-16-2008, 07:37 PM   #51
Godslayer Jillian
 
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The answer is simple, and you two implied it.
The two biggest examples of anarchist revolution are Spain and the Russian Revolution (before the soviets became subservient to the centralized Bolshevik party)
In both instances, the change was immediate, but the prelude to it took years.
The CNT, which was the anarcho-syndicalist confederation of Spain, grew gradually in the number of affiliates in it from 1911 onwards and then actually lost many members after 1919, but it was already an established organization. And then in 1936 it more than tripled its size in just a year, which was both the year that began the Civil War and the year that many cities began collectivizing themselves.
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People who say they don’t care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don’t care what people think.
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Old 08-16-2008, 07:44 PM   #52
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It just seems to me like true anarchy puts too much faith in human cooperation for the common good. Trust seems to be one of its greatest weaknesses. I have very little faith in trust. Outside of myself, I don't believe I can ever trust another individual 100%. There is always that doubt, and time after time I prove those doubts correct. Anarchy seems to depend on an enormous amount of trust in order to truly work. History alone should prove that it only takes a handful of cleaver minds in order to control millions.

One of our basic characteristics as humans is an insatiable hunger for power and control. Whether we want to admit it or not, someone somewhere would eventually use the trust of his piers to his advantage. It would be too tempting not to, by most any man who'd ever experienced what having any control over aspects of another individual's well-being felt like.

There is a theory that one of the driving forces behind men's desire for keeping fish tanks as a hobby is symbolic of their desire to be god. its predominantly a guy's hobby. Now combine that with the natural male desire for competition and greatness that's inherent in just about everything we do and see all over the world on a daily basis.
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Old 08-16-2008, 08:03 PM   #53
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Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name! Every fool, from king to policeman, from the flatheaded parson to the visionless dabbler in science, presumes to speak authoritatively of human nature. The greater the mental charlatan, the more definite his insistence on the wickedness and weaknesses of human nature.

Emma Goldman, "What is Anarchy?"


Besides, the Makhnovtchina is an example that trust in people is not bad, and that even unofficial leaders don't have to become corrupt, but that (following the reason of its demise) a lack of firm resolution can mean doom.

People believe anarchy can't work because people are selfish and a government enforces order and whatnot.
Equally, people used to believe secularism would mean the end of civilization because people are inherently ungodly and the Church is the only link to God.
Even the claims that the government provides things like education and healthcare and even lights on streets means nothing when you realize people used this same argument again for Church. The Roman Catholic church was, after all, the creator of modern hospitals.
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People who say they don’t care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don’t care what people think.
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Old 08-17-2008, 02:15 AM   #54
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I don't think the concept of anarchy is flawed, necessarily. It's a great idea, in theory. I just think that there are too many people that would use it to their advantage. How do you know what the next guy is really thinking? There's no way to know. Without some system of laws, and serious consequence for violating those laws, you leave yourself open to attack from virtually every angle. It's not as much a question of self-control, as it is a question of preventing someone else from controlling you. As much as I am against military, I understand the need for it. Faith in your own system of beliefs is not protection. The only way you can protect yourself is by having some form of military, and as soon as you do that, the idea of anarchy has been violated.

If anarchist societies truly worked, then they would have been in place long ago. It would be nice if some day we could reach that point though. I just don't believe it will ever happen.
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Old 08-17-2008, 02:58 AM   #55
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Is it too good for you to try it, Deviant?
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Old 08-17-2008, 04:06 AM   #56
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I don't think that it's too good for me to try it. It's too unstable and unpredictable for today's world.

This instability and inability is one of the biggest arguments against removing US troops from Iraq. Without protection or government, it's argued that Iraq would implode. Whether we're protecting them or controlling them at the moment is also a huge argument. I do admit that I haven't been paying attention to what's been going on there as much as I used to, as school has taken up most of my attention leaving little room to focus on world issues. Last I heard they were holding elections for something.
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Old 08-17-2008, 08:23 AM   #57
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Iraq has a government. It has a police force and an army. Its just argued that they are unable to maintain this government, police force and army. It is feared that insurgents will attack and replace the government with a new one. Nothing to do about anarchy ensuing, its fearing a civil war.

Jillian provided a good analogy with secularization. A lot of people now will say "I'm not a religious person", or will just say "I don't believe in God." Are we amoral people because of that? Do we doom the world in God's eyes because we don't fear Hell anymore? The threat of punishment in the afterlife is gone, but we still keep ourselves in check. Most people without religion create their own morals for themselves to follow. So who's to say that we need a government?
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Old 08-19-2008, 09:44 PM   #58
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I've pondered your statement for a few days now. I don't really know how to respond, but I'm confused as to what secularization and god has to do with anarchy. Some form of religion is behind every government, whether people want to admit it or not. it doesn't matter whether you share the same beliefs or not, you're still bound by that system of beliefs because it is law.

I know it's never been stated that a state of anarchy is feared in iraq, but it is similar. what is the difference between a weak government that can't protect itself from insurgents, and no government at all?

for people that truly believe in anarchy, I have to wonder what they think the motives behind just about every war in history, or every nation taking control of another nation, really were.

in a state of anarchy, what protects you from your neighbor? what protects you from a hospital that wants to charge you $3,000 for an aspirin? What protects you from an employer that decides he's not going to pay you for that week or month or however much of your time you've worked for him? What protects you from slavery or discrimination, or anything about you that someone else doesn't like?

Laws aren't just created to control people, some of them are also created to protect you.

I don't understand why fixing the government we already have is less favorable than having no government at all.
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Old 08-19-2008, 10:06 PM   #59
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I would give a whole dissertation if I needed to, but in this, you're just thinking within the boundaries of your system, so there's no wonder you can't see anarchy as possible.
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Quote:
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People who say they don’t care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don’t care what people think.
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Old 08-19-2008, 10:36 PM   #60
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that's the kind of answer a christian gives when asked where god comes from or what tribes did adam and eve's kids mate with. but ok. i do have to admire you though for your optimism.
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Old 08-19-2008, 10:46 PM   #61
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No, don't ever try to give a conclusion by feeling morally superior but giving up on arguments.
It's not the kind of answer Christians give you because they simply demand faith without telling you why.
I, however, in saying what I said, am asking a why. I never make people believe just because.
If you wanted phrased in other words, I just mean this:


Why do you immediately assume you need protection from your neighbor?
In all honesty, it's mostly the middle class in urbanized society that doesn't trust other human beings.
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Quote:
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People who say they don’t care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don’t care what people think.
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Old 08-19-2008, 11:17 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian
Why do you immediately assume you need protection from your neighbor?
In all honesty, it's mostly the middle class in urbanized society that doesn't trust other human beings.
And why do you think that is? could it be past experience, either personally or witnessed?

i know there is much more trust out in rural areas. people don't lock their doors, or mind if the kids are gone with the neighbor, however even those people sleep with shot guns by their beds.


and i'm not asking you these questions out of some preconceived idea that i feel morally superior. i started reading this thread because the concept is interesting and my questions are sincere. maybe its because i'm trained to look for all the ways in which something won't work, in order to come up with a way that it will. the concept of anarchy brings up a lot of questions. if its a system that truly works, then it shouldn't be difficult to answer those questions.
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Old 08-19-2008, 11:27 PM   #63
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It isn't. But I have addressed them numerous times, really. Now, you're new, so you haven't read all our conversations, so I'm sorry for demanding you to already know these things, but I think you can understand why it gets to me.

what protects you from your neighbor?
Your neighbor. Social alienation of the obscene magnitude that happens today only occurs due to capitalism, bureaucratization, and urbanization. Much of Marx's and Bakunin's and Weber's writings are about specifically this. As I said above, it's mostly the urbanized middle-class that can't trust other people.
Past experiences do not account for an argument as they happen withing the system. An anarchist state is by no means perfect and I'm not saying all evils happen withing this system; nevertheless, an overall feeling of fraternity has happened before even in large communities, such as in - widely referenced by me - the Asturias in Spain.

what protects you from a hospital that wants to charge you $3,000 for an aspirin?
The answer to this question is technically "N/A"
If there's no modern capitalism, absolutely no corporatism, and no consumer-centered economy, how can this scenario happen?

What protects you from an employer that decides he's not going to pay you for that week or month or however much of your time you've worked for him?
Ok, I just remembered why I was so aggressive above.
See? It's just that you're seriously asking questions within your own system. If you had read, or understood, what I have been saying and what other anarchists these past couple centuries have said, then why are you asking us about hierarchies in anarchist societies?


There's no capital, there's no social alienation, there's no employers, there's no corporation, and the implication you made that it is without governments that slavery happens is absolutely ludicrous.
Sorry, I thought I could answer your questions, but they just ignore everything I have previously said, so I don't know how to answer them without going back to zero.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George Carlin
People who say they don’t care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don’t care what people think.
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Old 08-20-2008, 12:22 AM   #64
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so then an anarchist does for himself what he would pay someone else to do under a government?
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Old 08-20-2008, 12:31 AM   #65
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Well, in all honesty, that's pretty much what the DIY ethic stands for, and I'm very in favor of DIY.
However, an anarchist society is not "each man for himself." It is in fact, both practically and philosophically, the society that most values and depends on cooperation.
Let me see if I can summarize anarchism in points, just for further reference:
- Anarchism is a branch of socialism
- "Freedom without Socialism is privilege and injustice and that Socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Bakunin
- Anarchism would destroy modern capitalism
- Anarchism puts power on the masses
- Means of production are collectivized
- Goals of the community are decided democratically
- Anarchism is the ultimate avatar of the slogan "liberty, equality, fraternity"

http://flag.blackened.net/daver/anar.../bakunin2.html
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I cleave to no system. I am a true seeker."
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George Carlin
People who say they don’t care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don’t care what people think.
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Old 08-20-2008, 03:38 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x-deviant-x

in a state of anarchy, what protects you from your neighbor?
Your other neighbors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by x-deviant-x
what protects you from a hospital that wants to charge you $3,000 for an aspirin?
Remember: in anarchy a profit driven business man is not running the hospital. The people are running the hospital. One of your neighbors who happens to work in the hospital is not going to suddenly say: "Hey everyone, let's charge the next patient $3,000!". He would be ostracized.

Quote:
Originally Posted by x-deviant-x
What protects you from an employer that decides he's not going to pay you for that week or month or however much of your time you've worked for him?
There is no boss to make such a decision, the places of employment are owned and run by the people, there is not even any profit in the capital sense, to be withheld, the "profit" benefits everyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by x-deviant-x
What protects you from slavery or discrimination, or anything about you that someone else doesn't like?
Again, one person out of the group in the particular organization is not going to step up and shout to his neighbors "let's exclude Mexicans from working here because they work for a cheaper salary" because there is no salary.
Capitalism based stratification disappears in anarchy.


My personal opinion is that anarchy is an ideal, but it's main weakness is its inability to respond to non-anarchy nations with large military forces. It is not a system that can survive long in a global context.
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Old 08-20-2008, 05:35 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HumanePain
My personal opinion is that anarchy is an ideal, but it's main weakness is its inability to respond to non-anarchy nations with large military forces. It is not a system that can survive long in a global context.
Is it just me, or did this thread just come full circle back to my original argument with Jillian?
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Old 08-20-2008, 02:24 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HumanePain
My personal opinion is that anarchy is an ideal, but it's main weakness is its inability to respond to non-anarchy nations with large military forces. It is not a system that can survive long in a global context.
I think I understand it now. If I had more time I might read a few books on the subject. Maybe someday in the future.

Then perhaps this will come about after the fall of the world government that many theorize is in the makings right now.
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Old 08-20-2008, 02:29 PM   #69
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The same was believed in the sixties.
Let's cross our finger that it's true this time.

But I recommend you to read the link I put above. It's short and it summarizes Bakunin's ideals, as he was the first modern anarchist par excellence.
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People who say they don’t care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don’t care what people think.
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Old 08-20-2008, 03:33 PM   #70
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Redistribution of wealth is essential to any free society; how are we to redistribute without use of excessive force? People won't just hand over their belongings, and to steal them would contradict the left's reasonably pacifistic and peaceful theories.
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Old 08-20-2008, 04:13 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCC
Redistribution of wealth is essential to any free society; how are we to redistribute without use of excessive force? People won't just hand over their belongings, and to steal them would contradict the left's reasonably pacifistic and peaceful theories.

That extent of pacifism is a form of violence. To take absolutely no action at all at the expense of everyone, even yourself? Yeah. Those kinds of people are just about as bad as the ones forcing fascism with the guns if you ask me. Personal opinion though. Take it as you will.
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Old 08-20-2008, 04:57 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PortraitOfSanity
Is it just me, or did this thread just come full circle back to my original argument with Jillian?
Yes, it did. The only two solutions to the whole conquering nation scenario are:
--Everyone is trained a carries around weapons. But in a way, doesn't that just empower those few who do harbor malicious intention to achieve their aims?
--Guerrilla warfare, and slash-and-burn strategies. Slash-and-burn (pardon if this is the incorrect term) worked for the Russians in WWII (plus a freezing climate), and guerrilla warfare worked 200 years ago in the American Revolution, and it still seems to work for some terrorist groups today.

The only other way to create a more permanent anarchist state is the complete collapse of "the system" for lack of a more precise term; but then, some parts would simply return to the path of militarization and politicization. Paradoxically, a single world government could ensure that this wouldn't happen, if only that government wasn't already, well, a government, and thus would defeat the purpose.
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Old 08-21-2008, 07:17 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KontanKarite
That extent of pacifism is a form of violence. To take absolutely no action at all at the expense of everyone, even yourself? Yeah. Those kinds of people are just about as bad as the ones forcing fascism with the guns if you ask me. Personal opinion though. Take it as you will.
I'm not for a second claiming that no action should be taken. But going into a person's house and taking their belongings by force doesn't seem particularly amiable, at least not to my agenda. This isn't criticism, this is inspiration. Think about how it could be done.
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Old 08-21-2008, 08:52 AM   #74
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I just thought of an answer to the global survival dilemma: that the anarchist state announce to the world that if they are ever invaded, they will resort to terrorist tactics against the invading army's nation. Individual and small cells wreaking havoc against soft targets. This would require complete lack of conscious on the part of the anarchist citizens, but it may intimidate neighboring countries sufficiently to preempt an attack.
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Old 08-21-2008, 04:59 PM   #75
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I always really love talking about Anarchy, it's usually quite an emotional subject.
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