Femenism

[Sir. Helpmann]

Originally Posted by Beneath the Shadows

Their are two major problems with feminism these days. One is that nine times out of ten, when you hear something that has anything to do with feminism, whether it be on the news, in the papers, in court, on the street, whatever, it's coming from an extremist. The other is that nine times out of ten, when all we hear about feminism is coming from the extremists, the non-extremists sit back and do/say nothing about it.

I'd love to know what newspapers you're reading because modern feminism is not like that at all. Clearly you're just spouting off viewpoints you've heard in the pub or from the mainstream media, and not actually looked in to the issue at hand in great depth or detail.

That's not an insult, I just don't believe that feminism is as "butch" as people here seem to portray it - far from it in fact. A lot of people here seem to be spouting Bernard Manninesque (sic) viewpoints about a subject which they clearly haven't given much consideration.

To put it simply, the viewpoint held in this thread would equate all Muslims as extremists simply because the extremists appear to have the largest voice.

The reality is far from this media inspired fabrication.

[heavilyrxmedicated]

YES!!!! I agree with you... Feminism has hit the point that chauvinism is/was at (and possibly passed it, as chauvinism seems to be slowly decreasing in society, from what I've seen, while feminism has been picking back up). Feminism has been quite good up until the point where women found that they were roughly equivalent to men (this is still not true in SOME cases, but don't take it out on people who haven't wronged you, just because they're men!). Yet they continue to push for more... I view this like I view african-americans asking for reparations for their great-great-great grandparents' slavery... They personally weren't treated badly because of a condition that they were born with, but yet they still feel some sense of entitlement simply because they were born with that condition. The feminist movement has been & is a good thing, if its meant to bring about TRUE equality, but when it becomes unreasonable (as it has in many of my experiences with some feminists I know, but not all feminists that I've met), it's EVIL! As he says, we are not better or worse than one another, but we're DIFFERENT!

[Sir. Helpmann]

Originally Posted by heavilyrxmedicated

YES!!!! I agree with you... Feminism has hit the point that chauvinism is/was at (and possibly passed it, as chauvinism seems to be slowly decreasing in society, from what I've seen, while feminism has been picking back up). Feminism has been quite good up until the point where women found that they were roughly equivalent to men (this is still not true in SOME cases, but don't take it out on people who haven't wronged you, just because they're men!). Yet they continue to push for more... I view this like I view african-americans asking for reparations for their great-great-great grandparents' slavery... They personally weren't treated badly because of a condition that they were born with, but yet they still feel some sense of entitlement simply because they were born with that condition. The feminist movement has been & is a good thing, if its meant to bring about TRUE equality, but when it becomes unreasonable (as it has in many of my experiences with some feminists I know, but not all feminists that I've met), it's EVIL! As he says, we are not better or worse than one another, but we're DIFFERENT!

Can you quote in future who you're agreeing with? It's very hard to know after a multitude of posts who exactly you "agree" with.

Thanks x

[wonderland]

Originally Posted by heavilyrxmedicated

YES!!!! I agree with you... Feminism has hit the point that chauvinism is/was at (and possibly passed it, as chauvinism seems to be slowly decreasing in society, from what I've seen, while feminism has been picking back up). Feminism has been quite good up until the point where women found that they were roughly equivalent to men (this is still not true in SOME cases, but don't take it out on people who haven't wronged you, just because they're men!). Yet they continue to push for more... I view this like I view african-americans asking for reparations for their great-great-great grandparents' slavery... They personally weren't treated badly because of a condition that they were born with, but yet they still feel some sense of entitlement simply because they were born with that condition. The feminist movement has been & is a good thing, if its meant to bring about TRUE equality, but when it becomes unreasonable (as it has in many of my experiences with some feminists I know, but not all feminists that I've met), it's EVIL! As he says, we are not better or worse than one another, but we're DIFFERENT!

Seriously? Women are "roughly equivalent" to men but continue to push for more? I get told on a regular basis that I can't properly do my job because I'm female. I get propositioned for sex at work once or twice a week, simply because I'm there, and I'm female, and often the only one. I once sat through a two-hour discussion at my university on whether or not women should be allowed to hold the same positions in the military as men. There are still some places where a man can legally force his wife to have sex with him. Like hell women are roughly equivalent, and I intend to push for more until I've actually been given the right to leave my house in the morning and know I'll be treated like a human being. Which doesn't seem like so much to ask, really.

[Sir. Helpmann]

Originally Posted by wonderland

Seriously? Women are "roughly equivalent" to men but continue to push for more? I get told on a regular basis that I can't properly do my job because I'm female. I get propositioned for sex at work once or twice a week, simply because I'm there, and I'm female, and often the only one. I once sat through a two-hour discussion at my university on whether or not women should be allowed to hold the same positions in the military as men. There are still some places where a man can legally force his wife to have sex with him. Like hell women are roughly equivalent, and I intend to push for more until I've actually been given the right to leave my house in the morning and know I'll be treated like a human being. Which doesn't seem like so much to ask, really.

The truth is that if both sexes were fully equal then both sexes would find no attraction in the opposite.

[Rorschach Twin]

I will restate what I think.

"You know what I think? People should look down and their bits, and quit trying to compare the sexes to see which is better. Neither is better, they're just different! Stop trying to compare!"

I'm not talking about all feminists, obviously. I'm referring the the extremities in feminism. "feminazi's", if you will. What really got me started on this is the fact that there is a complete chauvinist feminist teacher at my school. She teaches AP english, and all they read is literature written by women, and she relates everything back to the social status of women, and say that is what all books are about. Countless times have I have discussions with girls who think they're better than men, and think that women should rule the world because they wouldn't misuse their power. I mean, whatever, everyone's entitled to their opinion, but I have the right to say that I think it's a stupid opinion to bastardize men and raise women up. Seriously, why try to compare?

I've even had people try to say that women are better because they have the baby and they have to go through a menstrual cycle for a week of every month. And that I see as a fallacy, for that doesn't even add up.

Seriously though, I'm all for equal treatment of men and women. Women should be able to do anything a man can do, blah blah, all the things you know I should say.

But extremities of any kind relating to this are intolerable.

I suppose it probably has a lot to do with the fact that I'm really not talking to the brightest people, and I've never met many true, sensible feminists, besides my girlfriend.

[wonderland]

Originally Posted by Sir. Helpmann

The truth is that if both sexes were fully equal then both sexes would find no attraction in the opposite.

That's the most absurd thing I've heard all day. Which is saying a lot. My attraction to men has nothing to do with their difference in social status. It also makes my attraction to women pretty damn confusing, does it not?

Originally Posted by Rorschach Twin

Seriously, why try to compare?

I've even had people try to say that women are better because they have the baby and they have to go through a menstrual cycle for a week of every month. And that I see as a fallacy, for that doesn't even add up.

Seriously though, I'm all for equal treatment of men and women. Women should be able to do anything a man can do, blah blah, all the things you know I should say.

You went from saying we shouldn't try to compare the sexes, to saying women should be able to do anything a man can do. Which is comparing the sexes. What if we simply viewed women as people, rather than as a gender that should be raised up to the level of the currently dominant gender? Saying a woman is/should be the same as or different than a man is still viewing her only with respect to how she compares to that man. It's possible there are women out there who don't want to be the same as men. Or different than men. They just want to be people, for goodness sake.

[Beneath the Shadows]

Originally Posted by Sir. Helpmann

I'd love to know what newspapers you're reading because modern feminism is not like that at all. Clearly you're just spouting off viewpoints you've heard in the pub or from the mainstream media, and not actually looked in to the issue at hand in great depth or detail.

That's not an insult, I just don't believe that feminism is as "butch" as people here seem to portray it - far from it in fact. A lot of people here seem to be spouting Bernard Manninesque (sic) viewpoints about a subject which they clearly haven't given much consideration.

To put it simply, the viewpoint held in this thread would equate all Muslims as extremists simply because the extremists appear to have the largest voice.

The reality is far from this media inspired fabrication.

Interesting that you went to such lengths to say that you disagree with me, but then you don't (or can't) explain why you disagree with me, or demonstrate how I'm wrong. In other words, everything you typed in response to my post equals nothing more than "blah blah blah."

[Corpsey]

Originally Posted by wonderland

That's the most absurd thing I've heard all day. Which is saying a lot. My attraction to men has nothing to do with their difference in social status. It also makes my attraction to women pretty damn confusing, does it not?

Unless he was meaning attraction as some kind of metaphor, then helpman just lost whatever credibility on the words I have read of his.

Originally Posted by wonderland

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rorschach Twin
Seriously, why try to compare?

I've even had people try to say that women are better because they have the baby and they have to go through a menstrual cycle for a week of every month. And that I see as a fallacy, for that doesn't even add up.

Seriously though, I'm all for equal treatment of men and women. Women should be able to do anything a man can do, blah blah, all the things you know I should say.


You went from saying we shouldn't try to compare the sexes, to saying women should be able to do anything a man can do. Which is comparing the sexes. What if we simply viewed women as people, rather than as a gender that should be raised up to the level of the currently dominant gender? Saying a woman is/should be the same as or different than a man is still viewing her only with respect to how she compares to that man. It's possible there are women out there who don't want to be the same as men. Or different than men. They just want to be people, for goodness sake.

Yes, and people are cunts.

I welcome the view that we compare the sexes to humans in general instead of their gender, but also point out the fact the guys and gals alike fuck up.

I also hate the idea of superiority in any form. Women with raging menstrual cycles are equally capable of destroying the earth, blowing off people, killing and causing hate in the general good old fashioned methods, as our supposedly lofty Joe Blogs. Men with big brutish muscles are easily as likely to break to pieces as our supposedly dainty damsels.

So, instead of comparing races, genders or whatever, think of it as just one person at a time with their own strengths and weaknesses.

Now go and eat Ice Cream.

[wonderland]

...with sprinkles?!

[Methadrine]

*reads thread over*

That's a lot of fuss for something that could be stated in one sentence:

Equal rights and equal pay regardless of gender and sexual preference.

That's what it's about (more or less). Some miss the point, others get it perfectly. Instead of complaining about it, teach those who doesn't get what Feminism is supposed to be about. Just like new members on a forum are newbies, some people are newbies to the meaning of Feminism. Don't bash them without atleast giving them one or two chances. If someone says that since women has been oppressed for so and so many years and that it's just fair to treat men equally bad, then they've completely missed the point.

'nuff said.

[Rorschach Twin]

Amen Methadrine. Now someone lock this thread.

[Corpsey]

Originally Posted by wonderland

...with sprinkles?!

Haha, yes with some sprinkles and a flake if need be.

[Miss_Hazie_Lane]

I agree with the topic starter. I consider myself a feminist in that I believe I should have the right to vote, handle my own money, make my own decisions, and receive treatment comparable to men. However I do not believe that women are superior to men, nor do I like the turn modern feminism has taken. I think that strangely we're actually masculinizing society by encouraging little girls to participate in traditionally male activities, like sports, and to be competitive, and discouraging everyone from having traditionally feminine traits like nurturing, caring, and emotional openness

[Sir. Helpmann]

Originally Posted by wonderland

That's the most absurd thing I've heard all day. Which is saying a lot. My attraction to men has nothing to do with their difference in social status. It also makes my attraction to women pretty damn confusing, does it not?.

Stop putting words in people's mouths (keyboards?). I didn't even mention social status, did I?

Basically you're employing very cheap rhetorical techniques that have already been covered by the German Philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer some 150 years prior in his great work "The Art of Controversy", in which he easily dispels methods such as the one you're using and casts them as nothing more than cheap, easy and devoid of actual content or merit.

Don't start.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Actually you're the one that is using faulty rhetoric.
When people argue for equality of the sexes, they talk about social equality.
When you say "The truth is that if both sexes were fully equal then both sexes would find no attraction in the opposite." you're assuming perfect equality, as in, there would be absolutely no different, not even physical, between both sexes. Otherwise your statement makes no sense.
You're the one making a wrong inference out of the world equality in this context to state what you have.

[Sir. Helpmann]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

Actually you're the one that is using faulty rhetoric.
When people argue for equality of the sexes, they talk about social equality.
When you say "The truth is that if both sexes were fully equal then both sexes would find no attraction in the opposite." you're assuming perfect equality, as in, there would be absolutely no different, not even physical, between both sexes. Otherwise your statement makes no sense.
You're the one making a wrong inference out of the world equality in this context to state what you have.

Actually Godslayer you're using the method of defending recognized members over new members... isn't that so, old chap?

Let's get to the thrust of the argument - this thread originally set out to "bitch" about butch-dyke "feminists", which to me is somewhat redundant and has already been covered academically as well as socially and no longer needs discussion. Again, you may as well bitch about Muslims on account of a minority that are Islamic fundamentalists. What's the point? We know that extremes exist in all spheres of society, so what's the point in discussing it?

Just sounds like a petty excuse to start a thread over nothing in particular, and re-open old wounds that frankly had already healed by now.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Actually the name 'wonderland' sounds almost as new to me as yours, so you're using the even older method of:
Presumption!

As for the second paragraph, your statement wouldn't have changed if it were a genuine thread furthering feminism, or would it?

[Sir. Helpmann]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

Actually the name 'wonderland' sounds almost as new to me as yours, so you're using the even older method of:
Presumption!

As for the second paragraph, your statement wouldn't have changed if it were a genuine thread furthering feminism, or would it?

To sum it up - what's the point really? Feminism has done it's job; women today are seen as social equals, and despite the minority of militant hairy dykes nothing has really set a major boundary between me and women that prevents me from getting laid from time to time.

I simply fail to see the point of this thread.

[Steppenwolf]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

http://youtube.com/watch?v=XD5L2CxRMG4

Listen to this was a pleasure , thank you X)

[Tumor]

Originally Posted by Sir. Helpmann

I'd love to know what newspapers you're reading because modern feminism is not like that at all. Clearly you're just spouting off viewpoints you've heard in the pub or from the mainstream media, and not actually looked in to the issue at hand in great depth or detail.

That's not an insult, I just don't believe that feminism is as "butch" as people here seem to portray it - far from it in fact. A lot of people here seem to be spouting Bernard Manninesque (sic) viewpoints about a subject which they clearly haven't given much consideration.

To put it simply, the viewpoint held in this thread would equate all Muslims as extremists simply because the extremists appear to have the largest voice.

The reality is far from this media inspired fabrication.

Well, it's good to see that people who obviously have no clue what the hell they're talking about are still flapping their yaps.

Oh, wait. No, it's not good.

[Sir. Helpmann]

Originally Posted by Tumor

Well, it's good to see that people who obviously have no clue what the hell they're talking about are still flapping their yaps.

Oh, wait. No, it's not good.

Perhaps if you could cite how the individual in question has no clue as to what they're talking about, you may have a point.

However it's plain and clear to everyone that you're simply throwing around empty phraseology in an attempt to look subversive.

Grow up.

My point was that it's important to remember that feminism is no longer a group of organizations or leaders. It's the expectations that parents have for their daughters, and their sons, too. It's the way we talk about and treat one another. It's who makes the money and who makes the compromises and who makes the dinner. It's a state of mind. It's the way we live now.

[Tumor]

Originally Posted by Sir. Helpmann

Perhaps if you could cite how the individual in question has no clue as to what they're talking about, you may have a point.

Why should I do for you what you yourself have yet to do?

However it's plain and clear to everyone that you're simply throwing around empty phraseology in an attempt to look subversive.

What's plain and clear to everyone is that you're the one doing what you claim I'm doing.

[Sir. Helpmann]

Originally Posted by Tumor

Why should I do for you what you yourself have yet to do?



What's plain and clear to everyone is that you're the one doing what you claim I'm doing.

Interesting how you failed to quote the following point I made:

My point was that it's important to remember that feminism is no longer a group of organizations or leaders. It's the expectations that parents have for their daughters, and their sons, too. It's the way we talk about and treat one another. It's who makes the money and who makes the compromises and who makes the dinner. It's a state of mind. It's the way we live now.

Do grow up.

[Tumor]

Originally Posted by Sir. Helpmann

Interesting how you failed to quote the following point I made:

Thank you for proving my point.