Does God Exist?

[Disfunction]

Morals aren't instinctual, because you have to adapt to the societal way; if you find a bunch of money, people know that you're supposed to turn it in to the police, though one might assume it would be morally right to distribute it amongst your loved ones.

Also, there's the matter of psychopaths. All creatures, it would be assumed, carry within them a moral fibre (if it is indeed instinctual) in which case, psychopathics defeat this theory as they do not feel the empathetic twists of right or wrong. We learn through being tought. Myself, through a catholic school, learned that it's wrong to say the lord's name in vain, and at times feel guilty when I do. That's not instinctive, that bloody brainwashing.

[Asurai]

Originally Posted by Deadhymn

Asurai - How do you defend the church that wiped out the ENTIRE civilizations of Aztec, Incan, and Mayan native americans? How all of your european christian heroes annhilated 9/10ths of the North American natives in a little less than 400 years? Or how about the destruction of indigenous cultures and art work around the world in an attempt to make them believe in a god they did fine without for thousands of years. Care to explain to me how on fucking earth the crusades were a defensive action? did a bunch of middle easter insurgents attack London? i must have missed that.

Hm... you know, I don't recall defending or supporting the Catholic Church; only that fewer people died in the Inquisition than is commonly believed. I don't recall saying that the European Chritians are my "heroes."

The Crusades. See, the original Christians spread across the near East and what was called the Holy Land after the death of Jesus. They converted most of the population around centers such as Jerusalam (which, after their second rebellion, Jews were forbidden to enter upon pain of death) and Antioch by peaceful means. I'm speaking pre-Constantine, by the way. Now, skip ahead a few hundred years. Arabs come from the desert and started slaughtering all of the Christians' fellow Christians. After taking Jerusalam and Antioch, they continued to press forward. They had already tried to conquer France about 100 years before. Meanwhile, in the East, the Christian emperor of Constantinople asked for the aid of the Western Christians, who, naturally, responded. (Shame on the racist Europeans, right? How dare they not let Islam conquer Europe?)

So, the Crusades were, originally, a justifiable defensive war. They were eventually taken severely out of context and used to perpetrate many evils and wrongful acts, but the original concept was of mutual defense against a common enemy.

Loy -- any examples? The "as badly as Jews" was an exagerration, but it is documented history that Hitler oppressed Catholics in Germany.

As for philosophy and theology, I've read Plato (only The Republic and a few Socratic dialogues, admittedly), Aristotle, Epictetus, Marcus Aurelius, etc. of the Greeks and Romans, and John Stuart Mill, John Locke, Rousseau, Voltaire, etc. of the Enlightenment thinkers, and Thomas Aquinas, Peter Abelard, most of Maimonides, etc. of the traditional Christian and Jewish theologians, and Reichenbach and Ayn Rand, among others. Oh, and Jesus. All religious issues aside, Jesus was a great altruistic philosopher.

Now, I may not agree with you on most issues, and I may think (as I probably do) that your favorite philosophers are likely psychotic, but even you can't accuse me of not knowing at least the basics.

Originally Posted by Granny_like-the-apple

I'm assuming that you're one of those people? Correct me if I'm wrong, before I start ranting about it.

No, no, not at all. I'm not quite as presumptuous as that.

Do you mind explaining your reasoning behind this?

Yes, actually, I do. Judging by the measures of hostility that I seem to attract on a regular basis, I think that I've already said quite enough.

[Jane13]

The Philosopher's Song
(Monty Python)

Immanuel Kant was a real pissant
Who was very rarely stable.
Heidegger, Heidegger was a boozy beggar
Who could think you under the table.
David Hume could out-consume
Schopenhauer and Hegel,
And Wittgenstein was a beery swine
Who was just as schloshed as Schlegel.
There's nothing Nietzsche couldn't teach ya
'Bout the raising of the wrist.

John Stuart Mill, of his own free will,
On half a pint of shandy was particularly ill.
Plato, they say, could stick it away
Half a crate of whiskey every day.
Aristotle, Aristotle was a bugger for the bottle,
Hobbes was fond of his dram,
And Rene Descartes was a drunken fart:
"I drink, therefore I am"
Yes, Socrates, himself, is particularly missed;
A lovely little thinker but a bugger when he's pissed!

I can't read a science book without cracking up.

[Asurai]

Originally Posted by Jane13

...Yes, Socrates, himself, is particularly missed;
A lovely little thinker but a bugger when he's pissed!

Sigh... now I'm practically compelled by law to go around and sing that at random times. If I can keep a straight face.

[Granny-like_the_apple]

Originally Posted by Asurai

Yes, actually, I do. Judging by the measures of hostility that I seem to attract on a regular basis, I think that I've already said quite enough.

I hope I haven't been hostile-would it be ok if you told me in a PM or email or something? I just want to understand religious beliefs, I'm not trying to mock them.

[Granny-like_the_apple]

Originally Posted by Jane13

Immanuel Kant was a real pissant
Who was very rarely stable.

So true.

[Agwani]

In a word, no.

The concept of a god, or any type of entity presiding over us fills me with an enormous amount of unease.

I can see where it spawns from, we’re not that far along evolution-wise (and if you believe in creation-ism, even younger). I can see the need for many to find rhyme and reason in a reality filled with (seeming) chaos. Essentially, this concept comes from (in my humble opinion) a need to have things explained, that somebody, somewhere, knows what’s going on, a deified parent.

The problem with that is, if there is such thing as a god, we are the worse latch-key kids of all time. Home alone in a house full of stuff that can kill us or keep us alive, left to our own devices to figure-out how to work the gas-stove without setting our siblings on fire or blowing the place up. At best, we have a handful of instructions left from a recently departed older sibling, whose parting words were “I think this is what she said.”

Meanwhile, god, in all the glamour of a now-forgotten starlet of the silver screen, spends all her time, and her alimony, at a vaguely-referred to neighbour’s, drinking bathtub gin, and feeling justified that she’s left the kids alone, because she’s left them everything they could need.

Sure, every now and then she may remember to send someone over to make sure the place is still standing and everyone is still in one piece, but she doesn’t come home either when the thunder is deafening and the kids are bawling out of fear.

“Sure, they’re scared, but they’re safe in the house, and they can come and find me if they really need me.”

There is no god. At least nothing out there that deserves our praise, devotion, glory, virgins, sacrifices or fear.

[Loy]

Asurai, asurai, asurai....why, oh why do I have to go through basic education with you....

OK, when you asked for examples, I'm assuming you meant examples of your misconstruing facts to further your agenda. OK.

1."2000 people died in the Spanish Inquisition, and slightly less than 20 at Salem. Compare those numbers to the number killed by atheistic communists in this century alone -- in excess of 100 million.".....while the numbers are correct, what you are doing here is lumping a whole slew of different groups (anybody whose beliefs were partially influenced by Marx because, let's face it, Marxism as posited by Marx would never work in this world because people just aren't that altruistic on the whole) and combining their crimes to paint the crimes commited by those whose beliefs were influenced by Christ (again, an idealism that's been fractured because, let's face it, people just aren't THAT altruistic on the whole) as being lesser. Let's flip the tables here...."Christians have killed upwards to billions of people in comparison to the 6 that the Weatherman killed, or the little less than 500,000 that were thought to be killed during the Cultural Revolution"...see how easy it is?

2."Hitler was not a christian"-again, while technically true, it discounts the fact that something as massive as, say, the extermination of an entire group of people numbering in the millions requires more than one person. Just at the top of the echelon we have- Max Amann, Herman Goering, Joseph Goebbels, Rudolph Hess, Martin Bormann, Heinrich Himmler, Reinhard Heydrich, Albert Speer, and Otto Dietrich (all of whom were Christian/Protestant). You're also trying to lessen the fact that Germany was a mostly christian nation (I'm not sure if you've heard of this guy named Martin Luther, but he started this thing called the Reformation, which led to the split in the Catholic church that created Protestantism....he happened to be German. And his influence stuck around for a long time there....up to today). See, the Nazi's knew this, and thus worked their propaganda in a way to appeal to this aspect of their cultural make-up (hell, "Third Reich" was a deliberate "calling back" to the Holy Roman Empire, which happened to be Christian, in case you didn't know).

3."spiritual persons tend to live longer and healthier, after all"-Hmmm.....this is interesting. See, "spirituality" is one of those conepts which can be easilly redefined by somebody else. For example, most people wouldn't look at somebody who believed that the world laid on the back of a turtle as "spiritual" as much as "nutty"....and if when you say "spiritual" you mean "evangelical", I'd also like to point out that "evangelicals" have less smokers, less drinkers, less...umm..."sexually free" people, and less binge eaters than non-evangelicals. It could easilly be argued that it's healthier living, and not their spirituality, that gives these people longer lifespans. Now, one could also say that it's spirituality that gives these people the strength to avoid temptation (AA and NA, for example), but it still has no direct influence on their health.

4."The "as badly as Jews" was an exagerration, but it is documented history that Hitler oppressed Catholics in Germany."-yes, the Nazi's oppresed Catholics...the Catholics that were part of the opposition. See, it wasn't the fact that they were Catholic that got them into tangles with the Nazi's, but the fact that they were actively anti-nazi. The groups that were targeted were jews, communists, slavs, roms (aka "gypsies"), homos, sope fiends, labor unionists, cripples, retards, inferms, intellectuals, and artists....no "Catholic" there.

If you'd like, I can pull up other threads and deconstruct them in a similar fashion.

As for your reading list-great. Now, do you understand the concepts they were getting at, or do you just quote their works whenever a line seems to further your argument? And I loved your little baiting trick..."Your favorite philosophers are probably psychotic"....cute, in that pissed off teenager kind of way. I just wanna pinch your cheeks and say "oooh, how DARLING!" in a high pitched fey squeal.

Now, I could give a basic psychological breakdown of all the people you listed (enlightenment thinkers-closet homosexuals, Plato-pedophile, Rousseau-phobia of modernity, etc), but then you might stop reading their works for fear of "supporting degenerates" (or some similar nonsense), and I only like dissuading people from reading something if it's badly written.

However, if you really wanna know my favorite philosopher, his name happens to be Loy. See, whilst Loy's read a bit, he doesn't just soak up information, but questions that information to gain a better grasp of understanding all the intricacies and ironies contained within the information, and uses that understanding to question his own way of looking at things. See, Loy knows that nobody (including himself) has all the answers, but he understands that his view of the world is what he's got to work with, and that he has to be honest to himself in all things, and that following anybody else blindly is a fools game. Maybe not the greatest philosopher of all time, but he's the one I tend to follow.

(note to the board-I normally hate people speaking about themselves in the third person, but it happens to be funnier this way. Sorry if it offends)

As I suggested a few paragraphs back, knowing the basics means just that-you have the building blocks. As far as philosophy and theology are concerned, BFD. That's like saying that you're ready to tackle cosmology because you know your multiplication table. Read up some more, let the meaning of what you're reading sink in, question your understanding of said meaning until you get a full understanding of it, then come back and try pulling your "I'm so much smarter than the rest of you" attitude. It works much better when your argument can't be so easilly disassembled.

(be thankful I didn't bring up your recontextualisation of history. However, if you'd like, I can print up everything you've posted in regards to history and pass it around a few history professors. They might get as big of a kick out of it as I have).

[spoonjigglesatan]

Does Gods exist? What a silly question. We will all find out, or we won't, or nothing. Debating this topic is like trying to guess which number the stars are thinking of.
It's like the poet said:
You can pray all week, and god you'll never see,
but dial 911, and the devil be here in a minute.

[dollclans]

Originally Posted by spoonjigglesatan

Does Gods exist? What a silly question. We will all find out, or we won't, or nothing. Debating this topic is like trying to guess which number the stars are thinking of.
It's like the poet said:
You can pray all week, and god you'll never see,
but dial 911, and the devil be here in a minute.

if i had to guess what number the stars were thinking of, i'd say 11. it's a good number.

but anyway, i realize that we aren't going to find out whether or not god exists by debating it, i posted that story to get everyone else's oppinion. nothing more.

[Asurai]

Originally Posted by Loy

then come back and try pulling your "I'm so much smarter than the rest of you" attitude.

Alright, really, I just want to know . . . what the fuck are you talking about? I've been accused numerous times of having that sort of attitude, and I have absolutely no idea why. When posting, I've never thought for a moment that I'm smarter than anybody here, and I can assure you that such an assumption has never once entered into my reasonings for what I've written. Really, I want to know: what is it about me that makes me seem arrogant?

And I find your accusing that I pull a "so much smarter than the rest of you" attitude to be, coming from you, highly hypocritical.

As for your reading list--great. Now, do you understand the concepts they were getting at, or do you just quote their works

I understand what I can, and re-read what I do not until I do. Then I reflect, go through all of the logical points again in my head, see if the argument could have gone another way, etc. And by "I reflect..." I of course mean "Asurai reflects..." :wink:

3."spiritual persons tend to live longer and healthier, after all"-Hmmm.....this is interesting. See, "spirituality" is one of those conepts which can be easilly redefined by somebody else. For example, most people wouldn't look at somebody who believed that the world laid on the back of a turtle as "spiritual" as much as "nutty"....and if when you say "spiritual" you mean "evangelical", I'd also like to point out that "evangelicals" have less smokers, less drinkers, less...umm..."sexually free" people, and less binge eaters than non-evangelicals.

True, but I was referring more to the point that "spiritual" persons -- as the term is commonly understood -- tend to be more optimistic than depressed, and optimistic people tend to be healthier than depressed nihilists.

"Hitler was not a christian"-again, while technically true, it discounts the fact that something as massive as, say, the extermination of an entire group of people numbering in the millions requires more than one person. Just at the top of the echelon we have- Max Amann, Herman Goering, Joseph Goebbels, Rudolph Hess, Martin Bormann, Heinrich Himmler, Reinhard Heydrich, Albert Speer, and Otto Dietrich (all of whom were Christian/Protestant)....

True again; I was merely pointing out the untruth of the argument that "Hitler was a Christian, and look what he did!" (No, before you say anything, I do not deny that Christians have done evil things.)

The "recalling of the old Holy Roman Empire" was, of course and as you said, an attempt to influence the average German peasant. But Hitler and most of his inner party -- we've read different books, I suppose, for I've read that Goebbels and Goering, among others, were also like Hitler (though I very well may be wrong) -- were occultists.

."2000 people died in the Spanish Inquisition, and slightly less than 20 at Salem. Compare those numbers to the number killed by atheistic communists in this century alone -- in excess of 100 million.".....while the numbers are correct, what you are doing here is lumping a whole slew of different groups (anybody whose beliefs were partially influenced by Marx because, let's face it, Marxism as posited by Marx would never work in this world because people just aren't that altruistic on the whole) and combining their crimes to paint the crimes commited by those whose beliefs were influenced by Christ (again, an idealism that's been fractured because, let's face it, people just aren't THAT altruistic on the whole) as being lesser. Let's flip the tables here...."Christians have killed upwards to billions of people in comparison to the 6 that the Weatherman killed, or the little less than 500,000 that were thought to be killed during the Cultural Revolution"...see how easy it is?

Oh, it's very easy. Particular when, as you said, the numbers that I used were correct.

I, however, was putting things into context and responding to two persons who seemed to be saying that Christians have perpetrated most of the evil in history -- the fact that the person was shocked that I could support such a group seemed to mean that he believes it to be on par with the Nazis.

Two people implied strongly that religion is inherently evil and immoral; I responded by demonstrating that atheist regimes, too, have committed atrocities. Their original argument was one-sided; my response was one-sided (although I wouldn't call it such, since I admitted that 2000 people died in the SI and that this was an evil act) in that it called attention to the fact that the religion is not alone in committing such atrocities.

Speaking of these persons, by the way:

Originally Posted by DeadHymn

How do you defend the church that wiped out the ENTIRE civilizations of Aztec, Incan, and Mayan native americans?...

Simple. If someone makes untrue, distorted, or biased statements about it, I issue a correction -- such as my pointing out that the Crusades were originally defensive in nature. If someone said that the Nazis killed 60 million Jews, you would, of course, respond by correcting them and saying that the number was only 6 million. By the logic that you used against me, you would be "defending" the Nazis in making that correction.

[Deadhymn]

poor asurai...youre too wrapped up too even see what we mean...

and i wouldnt be defending nazi's making that correction. i wouldnt make that correction at all. approximately 14 million died in the concentration camps. only 6-7 million of them jews. Im tired of the jews stealing all the thunder. what about the other 7-8 million who died but are rarely mentioned?

[Loy]

Asurai-

1-you wonder why people think you're pulling "I'm smarter than you, therefor I'm better than you"? I'd suggest re-reading some of your posts again. You mismanage facts to fit into your arguments, then start either whining or trying to change the subject whenever anybody shows you that your reading of those facts happen to be wrong (unless said person happens to be female). I'd suggest either accepting your arrogance and going full throttle with it, or just changing your own personality, because frankly, I don't buy your "wounded" act here.

2-"And I find your accusing that I pull a "so much smarter than the rest of you" attitude to be, coming from you, highly hypocritical"-well, we're back at the "misconstruing to further your argument" angle again. See, what I was saying was that if you're going to be an arrogant little snot who's basing his arguments over facts to at least get those facts right (which would have been made clear by the sentence directly after where you left off). However, you decided to try to use my words....I'm sorry, take my words out of context...to try to throw out an insult. Sorry kid, I'm not game (but I still want to pinch your cheeks while squealing "awwww, how CUTE", find the gaudiest shade of red lipstick, and leave a big old kiss mark on your cheek). And if you're going to insult me, don't be a fucking pussy about it, just fucking insult me. Hell, I gave a list to Bexxle a while back. Feel free to crib off of it. I mean, c'mon, if you're as smart as you're playing yourself off to be, I'm sure you can come up with something better than what I already wrote down for her/him/it.

3-"I understand what I can, and re-read what I do not until I do. Then I reflect, go through all of the logical points again in my head, see if the argument could have gone another way, etc. And by "I reflect..." I of course mean "Asurai reflects..."-see, I just don't buy it. Why? Because every argument you've ever put forth is just an echo of one I've heard before...and one that's easilly refuted. You're just another shell shuffling through the echo chamber, and while I see that you've got a head on your shoulders, I don't really think you're asking as many questions as you either can or should...in other words, you're not pushing your brain to the limits here kid. Arrogance and willful ignorance aren't good steeds in the world of ideological exchange, especially when dealing with people who are more knowledgable in things you're trying to claim knowledge over (as .bp. has shown).

4-spiritual=happy. You know, that's up for argument. I know enough "heathens" who are happier and better adjusted human being than any Baptist or Mormon I've ever ran across to make that argument...well, bullshit. See, happiness comes when one is honest with themselves, and works from there. And as far as depressed people dying out before happy people, remember this-Jim Fixx died at 52. Joan of Arc died at 19. Jesus died at 30. William Burroughs died at 83. Celine died at 67. dostoyevski died at 60....something to think about.

5-you keep bringing up that the nazi's were "occultists", but if one were to look at the occult groups they were part of, one would realise that these groups were more along the lines of, for example, the shriners or the masons...a fraternity that gave guys an excuse to hang out with each other and do stupid shit. Rituals were involved, yes, but only the most psychotic/retarded/egomaniacal would've given them any credence. Otherwise, their membership in these groups were more for "strengthening their brotherhood"....the same way you'd hang out with your buds at a bar after a long softball game. As far as the recalling the Holy Roman Empire...again, you're not getting my point-these guys payed lip service to Christianity, and were members of their local churches. Even though they were cynically using "morals" to further their party and agenda, there was a bit of "faith" behind it all.

6.The numbers you used were correct, but so were mine. And you weren't trying to put things into context. What you were doing was to hint that Christians weren't as bad as atheists. I called you on it, so don't try to recontextualise what I said to make yourself seem better. It speaks lesser of you.

And for your history lesson-if, by peacfully converting you mean by murder, attack, terrorism, beheadings and such, I can see what you mean by "peaceful"....sorry, but you're whitewashing for the Right wing again. (And I showed your remark to a history prof....I'd post up his comments, but it'll take some time to edit out the bursts of cackling, hysterical fits of laughter, and "fucking moron"s out of it)

[AlKilyu]

Originally Posted by Loy

for example, the shriners or the masons...a fraternity that gave guys an excuse to hang out with each other and do stupid shit.

Actually we do a lot of charitable work. Shriners Hospital, etc. We have "rituals", that's what they are called, but not like what pops into most people's heads right away. Nothing dark or satanic or evil. Remember, we've been around since biblical times.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by spoonjigglesatan

Does Gods exist? What a silly question. We will all find out, or we won't, or nothing. Debating this topic is like trying to guess which number the stars are thinking of.
It's like the poet said:
You can pray all week, and god you'll never see,
but dial 911, and the devil be here in a minute.

Well I figure the stars are thinking of the number 42, or maybe they're thinking of the number 19, or possibly yet again the number 99.

[Jane13]

I'd say 6 or 4. I always choose six or four.

[Loy]

42. the answer is always 42.

[Jane13]

What are we talking about here? Is it between 1 and 10, 1 and 100? In response to the actual thread, Calvin (from Calvin and Hobbs) on said "Most of the questions I have about Santa Claus are the same questions I have about God".

[TeapotScar]

After watching "Saved" for the second and a half time, I'm pretty sure I'm ready to accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.


*Kidding*


...He was already my Lord and Savior.


:roll: Heathens...

[Jane13]

^ I'll accept that title.

[spoonjigglesatan]

i have some good news and some bad news everyone:
good news - god exists! s/he appeared before me just last night! we
cuddled!
bad news - s/he's a little frumpy-looking.
good news - god said s/he likes us!
bad news - s/he's leaving us tomorrow for "somewhere that isn't stupid".

[FenrisQueen]

thank (insert title here) I dont have to worry about him/her coming to my place then

[spoonjigglesatan]

god just called me, s/he's on her way out and wanted me to deliver this message:
"i didn't write 'the bible'"

[FenrisQueen]

AHA!!!!



...





.....










...







I knew it!!!!

[spoonjigglesatan]

which is bigger, god, jesus, or paul?