So, this started as a response to his post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ape descendant
One cannot be "recruited" to non-belief... one has to come to one's on conclusions.
...And while I may think that Des and Kotan tend to be a little retarded when it comes to handling people, I think their blackened little hearts are in the right place.
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But it sort of grew. This is sort of a final argument/personal narritive of my own journey to my own conclusion. I hope it will help you to understand me and my position.
While I do agree that people have to come to their own conclusions, if we don't speak out about it, if we don't challenge them, most of them never will.
I used to think exactly like Ape Descendant, and Saya, and HP back when I was 18 or 20. I didn't WANT to be an atheist because Atheists (with a capital "A") were rude jerks who were just angry and it was just as viable to believe in God as not. (Right?) so I thought I should be an agnostic (though even then that seemed too wishy-washy). To me, Atheism was a religion just like any other, except it really wasn't because it was also MAD and reactionary. I became a Buddhist for a while because it seemed to me the religion with the least reliance on the supernatural (and one MUST have a religion or be an angry dickwad).
I thought that you needed to respect everyone's beliefs, so long as they were quiet about it. I thought you needed to give every idea a fair and equal chance and never TOTALLY rule one out in order to be open-minded.
Guess what? I was wrong. What I thought of as "respecting" the beliefs of others was really just gagging them and myself, and I quickly noticed that the same "respect" I extended, was rarely returned.
And honestly, I couldn't stop thinking about it. I couldn't stop putting my belief's under a microscope. I used to take these long drives from Louisville to Russell Springs, and I'd look out over the horizon and I'd think about God. I distinctly remember saying to Konatan on one of these drives:
"I really hope I'm not an atheist". I started writing atheists into my fiction, with the intention of displaying them for what they were: flawed angry extremists, and they ended up being the most compelling, most interesting characters I'd been able to pen up to that point.
My brain was trying to tell me something.
I used to call Dawkin's an ass, because anyone who openly states that he is an atheist and he's pretty sure religion is wrong, and that, this same religion is harmful and people shouldn't believe it, simply MUST be an ass.
We don't bat an eye when someone says: "I am a Christian, and so I believe that you must accept Jesus Christ as your lord and Savior in order to go to Heaven". You know what? They don't even have to say that last part (as it's implicit.) They can really just say: "I'm a Christian and God loves you".
Nice right? Or is it?
In a "nice" way, they've just condemned each and every one of us non-believers, theists and atheists alike. In one breath they've said: "Ascribe to my worldview or burn". and we LET them get away with it, we say: "Well it's just their beliefs, we have to respect them."
What about MY beliefs? All I did was voice them and it got HP turn completely around on me and Kontan. Where before he was a nice, "Lets have everybody get along" old man, Now he's passive-aggressively goading Catch to harass us (really HP? CATCH? She's barely coherent) Starting elaborately-veiled attack threads like his so-called "bridge to the future" (which might have been more aptly titled "Hey, guys SHUT UP") and the Nietzsche one, and accusing Kontan of being drunk and belligerent.
WE are NOT the ones who are out of line here. WE are not the ones being assholes,
Humaine Pain is the one who's behaving poorly. Humaine Pain is the one who wants to use "tolerance" as an excuse to muzzle us, (and by extention, all those who think like us). This is swiftly approaching Tam Li Hua levels of passive-aggression.
And you people are backing him up. Even fellow out-of-the-closet-atheists like Ape Descendant are pulling a Log-cabin Republican, and calling us assholes...Ape Descendant is distancing herself from what are really just her own belief's simply stated, without apology. Even some atheists are siding with theists who are clearly behaving poorly, and WHY? Because they're theists.
Because we have all been raised, indoctrinated, with a reverence and awe for these silly ideas. We have been raised to not scrutinize, we have been raised to not question, we have been raised to excuse just these ideas.
WHY? Because people believe them? Because people base their lives on them? Logically, that means they need to be scrutinized all the more. They must be examined and attacked and hammered at every opportunity SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE they hold such say over the human mind. To do otherwise, to continue to allow these ideas to enjoy the free pass, the unassailable position which they have enjoyed for thousands of years is an act of utmost negligence.
You remember, when I said, that if Jesus, keeping the very clear laws of the gospels in mind, the laws that he himself stated, ever told someone "Hey, you say you've got your own way to God? Cool. You have your way, I have my way, I guess I'll see you there" he would have been doing a horrible thing, he would have been lying and therefore tricking that person into hell? It's not quite the same thing here (there's no threat of eternal punishment implicit in my view) but, if I have the opportunity, in the proper social context to scrutinize these ideas, to ask these questions, and I do not, out of cowardice, or fear of offending...I have just done myself and everyone around me a disservice. I have
betrayed myself, my principals, and I have betrayed you. I have given parts of myself and my mind over to this deity, that I don't even believe in.
This is wrong. What Humane Pain asks, what Saya asked, What Ape Descendant asks is too much, it is disrespectful, dehumanizing, dishonest, and and
dangerous. In the name of avoiding an unavoidable conflict, they have cast me as Copernicus, and asked that I lie to the Pope, that I become a part of the problem, instead of the solution.
Respectfully:
never. I cannot, will not, abandon my principals for your pretense of reverence. I will not disrespect myself in that matter, nor will I disrespect other atheists, nor will I disrespect my political and intellectual enemies.
Simply shutting up, and pretending we all agree with each other all the time is not the way forward. Ignoring fundamental differences, psychologically segregating our minds is not the way to reach acceptance. Acceptance is reached through communication. It is reached through a melding, a joining of minds, and it is reached through the abandonment of outdated, harmful cultural beliefs and practices.
Acceptance is born through struggle.
In conclusion, I will simply share this: after all my fear of becoming an Angry Atheist...am I actually angry? By abandoning all belief in the existence of Gods did I become everything I feared? No, my friends. We've all heard of cognitive dissonance, and I was experiencing it for years. After fighting my own mind, my own reason for so long...I can't tell you how good it feels, to finally admit that there is no God.
In letting go of this notion, I've at long last grown up. My morality has
deepened, my understanding and sheer awe at the majesty of the natural world has increased, and my compassion for my fellow man has become greater. I'm giving to charity now, I'm doing social work. While many theists prepare for doomsday and work to ensure their place in the next life, I'm making the most of this one. I'm writing, I'm climbing mountains, I'm leaving a legacy, a better legacy for the next generation,
because no one is going to do it for us.
This is our planet, our universe, and we alone are the masters of it, and that is truly a beautiful, comforting, and liberating thought.
I think I can put a cap on this whole atheist/theist discussion.
