93-year-old froze to death, owed big utility bill

[CptSternn]

http://tinyurl.com/c3krbf

BAY CITY, Mich. – A 93-year-old man froze to death inside his home just days after the municipal power company restricted his use of electricity because of unpaid bills, officials said.

Marvin E. Schur died "a slow, painful death," said Kanu Virani, Oakland County's deputy chief medical examiner, who performed the autopsy.

Neighbors discovered Schur's body on Jan. 17. They said the indoor temperature was below 32 degrees at the time, The Bay City Times reported Monday.

"Hypothermia shuts the whole system down, slowly," Virani said. "It's not easy to die from hypothermia without first realizing your fingers and toes feel like they're burning."

Schur owed Bay City Electric Light & Power more than $1,000 in unpaid electric bills, Bay City Manager Robert Belleman told The Associated Press on Monday.

A city utility worker had installed a "limiter" device to restrict the use of electricity at Schur's home on Jan. 13, Belleman said. The device limits power reaching a home and blows out like a fuse if consumption rises past a set level. Power is not restored until the device is reset.

The limiter was tripped sometime between the time of installation and the discovery of Schur's body, Belleman said. He didn't know if anyone had made personal contact with Schur to explain how the device works.

Schur's body was discovered by neighbor George Pauwels Jr.

"His furnace was not running, the insides of his windows were full of ice the morning we found him," Pauwels told the newspaper.

Belleman said city workers keep the limiter on houses for 10 days, then shut off power entirely if the homeowner hasn't paid utility bills or arranged to do so.

He said Bay City Electric Light & Power's policies will be reviewed, but he didn't believe the city did anything wrong.

"I've said this before and some of my colleagues have said this: Neighbors need to keep an eye on neighbors," Belleman said. "When they think there's something wrong, they should contact the appropriate agency or city department."

Schur had no children and his wife had died several years ago.

Bay City is on Saginaw Bay, just north of the city of Saginaw in central Michigan.

[CptSternn]

Thats pretty messed up. I mean, the city basically executed an old man because he was poor.

Cutting off power in a home that has no other heat sources?

Evil.

[Saya]

"I've said this before and some of my colleagues have said this: Neighbors need to keep an eye on neighbors," Belleman said. "When they think there's something wrong, they should contact the appropriate agency or city department."

I thought this was stupid. What would the city department do? Call an ambulence, laden the man with hospital bills, and then send him right back to a house with no power? Throw an extra blanket on him? What were his options?

[jack_the_knife]

That's rather irresponsible of the electricity board. They should at least be charged with manslaughter.

[KontanKarite]

If you think the electric company killed this man because he was poor, you're a fool.

First of all, he apparently wasn't paying his bills. I've NEVER seen a 1000 dollar electric bill. No wonder they cut off his electricity. If he didn't get his bills paid, that happens and it seems he didn't take the steps to pay them.

Also, the electric company isn't to blame for this unless their review shows that something criminal indeed happened.

Obviously the man or a care taker should have had enough sense to talk to the company and see about getting the electric put back on. I mean, a 1000 dollar bill... Seriously, that's like 10 months of 100 dollar electric bills unpaid. Sounds to me like the electric company was being very lenient with the man for him to get that far into debt with electricity.

Sternn, I don't know what's worse. You being dumb enough to believe your claims of yet another "evil corporation" or you being smart enough to somehow twist this into some kind of leftist propaganda as it seems that you have done here.

Wow.

People, if you want any sense out of this, honestly, the most logical outcome of this story based on the information presented is that a man neglected to pay his bills. If you neglect paying your bills, things get shut off, which seems to have happened here. If you don't pay your electric bills or have a care taker do it for you in the winter, you're liable to freeze to damned death. Evidence presented, I think it's more believable to say the man committed suicide by hypothermia if he was at all in his right state of mind to begin with.

Or you can just simply believe that yet another *jazz hands* EVIL corporation certainly did kill yet another helpless and destitute customer.

[Renatus]

I think it would be advisable for utilities to make some sort of specific arrangement that allows for the cutting of power without cutting heat. Perhaps include a device on the limiter that allows the heating system to bypass it in the case of electricity being used for heating during the colder periods.

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

If you think the electric company killed this man because he was poor, you're a fool.

Right back at you, if you think the electric company or city manager should be given a pass on this.

First of all, he apparently wasn't paying his bills. I've NEVER seen a 1000 dollar electric bill. No wonder they cut off his electricity. If he didn't get his bills paid, that happens and it seems he didn't take the steps to pay them.

Yer man was in his 90's with no family and no one to watch after him. You think he really was in the position to monitor things like paying bills and what not?

Also, the electric company isn't to blame for this unless their review shows that something criminal indeed happened.

Again, per my first post, cutting off the only source of heat to someones home on a night when it is below freezing in an area where it gets below 20 degrees during many parts of the year is an act which has an obvious outcome. Much like going the other way, lets say lighting someones home on fire, there is a definitive outcome which any reasonable person would obviously know.

Obviously the man or a care taker should have had enough sense to talk to the company and see about getting the electric put back on.

And again, he had no care taker or family. The responsibility of the government is to protect its citizens, not make a buck. Cutting off the heat for an elderly man on a cold night is not how I would like to think my government is 'protecting' me.

I mean, a 1000 dollar bill... Seriously, that's like 10 months of 100 dollar electric bills unpaid. Sounds to me like the electric company was being very lenient with the man for him to get that far into debt with electricity.

Safe to say the old man probably was away with the fairys for sometime then.

Sternn, I don't know what's worse. You being dumb enough to believe your claims of yet another "evil corporation" or you being smart enough to somehow twist this into some kind of leftist propaganda as it seems that you have done here

People, if you want any sense out of this, honestly, the most logical outcome of this story based on the information presented is that a man neglected to pay his bills. If you neglect paying your bills, things get shut off, which seems to have happened here. If you don't pay your electric bills or have a care taker do it for you in the winter, you're liable to freeze to damned death. Evidence presented, I think it's more believable to say the man committed suicide by hypothermia if he was at all in his right state of mind to begin with.

Or you can just simply believe that yet another *jazz hands* EVIL corporation certainly did kill yet another helpless and destitute customer.

Leftist propaganda, eh?

Here in Ireland and the EU we have heating allowance. All persons over the age of 65 get a monthly stipend to pay for the cost of heating.

Anyone making under a certain amount per year or anyone unemployed also gets it.

Also we have a public health nurse. When you have a baby here she comes out every week for the first few weeks to your home to check on the baby. They also go and check on elderly persons who live alone on a daily basis and monitor for this sort of thing.

I like knowing my government provides this service. When I think about 'protection' I don't worry about Russians, Vietnamese, Cubans, or Iranians kicking down my door, I worry about real life things like dying the way this man did.

Governments are supposed to protect citizens from threats. From predatory lending practices, to companies using tainted products that endanger your health, and yes, making sure that the elderly are taken care of and that the government doesn't cut off the only source of heat on a frigid night to an elderly person because they didn't get their cut of his social security check.

Per your own argument, what if that man was on a dialysis machine? Or had an oxygen tank he needed to plug in to breath? It's ok to cut off his power then because is he is not in his right mind? Because obviously its not the governments job to protect him or monitor him according to you. Everyone fend for themselves, is that what you support?

One day, when your old and gray sitting alone in your own filth and the government cuts off your source of heat, you will think back and remember this thread.

[KontanKarite]

Renatus, it doesn't work that way. You don't get heat for free. It's a service that you pay for. Sure, it'd be fucking amazing to get heat for free, but that heat has to come from somewhere, be it gas or electricity, which is the service of the same company.

Now sure, I could go on a rant about what I think people should have an undeniable right to: Nutrition, shelter, work, time, and cleanliness

But this is not an example I would want to use to back up my claims to those rights or entitlements that I think all people want.

[KontanKarite]

Look, Sternn, in the big picture I see what you mean, I really do. I mean, it is rather fucked up to do that on the grounds of ethics.

You can blame it on capitalism, sure. Fair game is rarely ever fair or ethical. But dude, seriously... you actually think that there was some organization out there just drooling at the mouth to freeze this man to death?

You see, the way it is, there's this thing called privacy in America. Sure, he was 93 and probably messed up. But how do you know that unless you actually come to his door and pester him.

"Excuse me, Mr. 93 Year Old. How are you today? Would you like the government to babysit and take care of you today?"

[Saya]

The thing is though, that it could have been avoided easily if someone went into his house and explained it to him. If you click on the link there's a video, it explains he's a WW2 veteran and when they went in and found his body they found a electric bill on the table with a lot of money clipped to it, he did intend to pay. Why he didn't? God knows, they don't know if anyone ever told him how the limiter worked.

A big part of problem is that while they didn't do anything wrong, when you have a 93 year old client who isn't paying his bills, and its the dead of winter, and its a well known fact that very cold or very warm weather can kill the elderly, instead of an automated order being rolled out to a tech to go out to his house and put on a limiter, they should review his case and send someone out to talk to him and make sure he understood, he evidently had the money but for some reason didn't pay. And its not a difficult thing to do, I've worked with telephone companies where I would have customers up to their ears with bills (and yes some a thousand dollars and over) but because of their circumstances I would turn their phone back on, and all of those circumstances were just based on what the customer was telling me, things like "I'm pregnant and I need to phone to call my boyfriend incase I go into labour" or "I'm terminally ill and need to contact my kids if something happens" or "my brother killed himself and I have to make a lot of calls to family members". It was expected of me to take into consideration these sort of things, even when the customer was telling me things I couldn't verify and they could have lying, and they could easily verify on his file that he was 93, and found another solution.

Now all that said, I don't think that the company was malicious or responsible for manslaughter, its just one of the very sad facts that companies rely on a system that treats customers more like numbers than people, because to a lot of companies they don't want to spend the money to review case by case, mostly its just automated to send someone out to cut off the power, and I hope that is one the changes they make because of this. Actually I'm wondering if the tech did talk to him at all, I know with companies I've worked with the tech can go to the house and take a payment as well.

And I know the video probably just mentioned it to tear at the watcher's heart strings, but it really did bother me that he was a WW2 vet :/ Just seems sad that we're told all the time how great veterans are and how much respect they deserve, and then you read how a WW2 vet died alone frozen in his home, with the money to pay his bill sitting there on the table.

[KontanKarite]

Saya, TL;DR. But from what I did read, the only thing I find really weird about it is that the company didn't call him or didn't have the guy putting the limiter on his thing to speak to him about it and maybe in the case of manslaughter, they might have a leg to stand on in court because the company was obviously not being aware of their client's condition. But as I said, that company isn't going to ask you. They're going to do what you ask them to do and that's it. Provide electricity and heat. It's not their job to actually CHECK UP on you, but the company should have been notified of the man's inability to pay his bill through proper channels. Now exactly who's fault is that really?

[Underwater Ophelia]

I don't think it said anywhere that they didn't tell him how it worked.
It said they didn't think they did, but that doesn't mean anything.

Anyway, I don't think the electric company did anything wrong.
If you don't pay your bill, your electricity gets shut off. Everyone knows that. The man obviously knew he couldn't pay his bill, but instead of making arrangements to pay, or going to a home, he just decided to let it go.

[HumanePain]

Everyone knows a human life is only worth $1000. Since it costs $1500 per automobile airbag ($3,000 for the front two passengers), let's stop putting airbags in cars, people aren't worth $1500. Shut off airbags too.

And since...

[Renatus]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

Renatus, it doesn't work that way. You don't get heat for free. It's a service that you pay for. Sure, it'd be fucking amazing to get heat for free, but that heat has to come from somewhere, be it gas or electricity, which is the service of the same company.

Now sure, I could go on a rant about what I think people should have an undeniable right to: Nutrition, shelter, work, time, and cleanliness

But this is not an example I would want to use to back up my claims to those rights or entitlements that I think all people want.

I'm not saying not to charge him for it, bypassing the limiter would not mean bypassing the meter. Once things get to a certain unbearable state they could simply take him to court for it or somthing rather. Wisconsin actualy has a system in place to ensure that the heat stays on during our coldest of months.

Originally Posted by HumanePain

Everyone knows a human life is only worth $1000. Since it costs $1500 per automobile airbag ($3,000 for the front two passengers), let's stop putting airbags in cars, people aren't worth $1500. Shut off airbags too.

And since...

Reminds me a bit of THX 1138 where they stop chasing the protaganist after the cost has exceeded a certain amount.

[HumanePain]

Originally Posted by Renatus

I'm not saying not to charge him for it, bypassing the limiter would not mean bypassing the meter. Once things get to a certain unbearable state they could simply take him to court for it or somthing rather. Wisconsin actualy has a system in place to ensure that the heat stays on during our coldest of months.



Reminds me a bit of THX 1138 where they stop chasing the protaganist after the cost has exceeded a certain amount.

EXACTLY! That is awesome that you thought that, I thought of using it as an example but I didn't think anyone else would have seen the movie. It is quite old.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by HumanePain

Everyone knows a human life is only worth $1000. Since it costs $1500 per automobile airbag ($3,000 for the front two passengers), let's stop putting airbags in cars, people aren't worth $1500. Shut off airbags too.

And since...

People pay for their airbags.

[Opteron_Man]

If the guy doesn't pay his bills, then gets his juice cut off, then that is his hard luck. Didn't he think of putting on a sweater and bundle up in a blanket, or did he hang around in the frigid place in his shorts? I don't see why he didn't have a friend that didn't stop in once and a while.

[Albert Mond]

Originally Posted by Opteron_Man

If the guy doesn't pay his bills, then gets his juice cut off, then that is his hard luck. Didn't he think of putting on a sweater and bundle up in a blanket

How do you know he wasn't?

[Malice In Wonderland]

I'm just gonna say that it's pretty tragic that the guy died.
You can argue over who's fault it is and how immoral it all is.
But he's dead.

[Underwater Ophelia]

No it's not fucking tragic.
Sad, maybe--that's up to you.

It's definitely not fucking tragic when a 93 year old man dies and it's his own fault.
You cheapen tragedy by calling this tragic.

[Albert Mond]

It's America's fault that 9/11 happened. Had they just mass-converted to Fundamentalist Islam, it would never have happened.

[KontanKarite]

Exactly...

[LaBelleDameSansMerci]

I like the idea of the heater bypassing the limiter.

[KontanKarite]

I don't understand how that works. Who pays for it? Is it some kind of communal heating program?

[Beneath the Shadows]

Bay City Electric Light & Power shows almost a year's worth of leniency: Another evil corporation.

Give me a break. Most power companies give people 90 days tops, then lights out. Unless of course this guy happened to be a huge power hog, in which case it's his own damn fault.