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11-03-2008, 02:55 PM
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#126
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Cumbria, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,153
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Albert Mond
That's the THING. A need can't be a want. I want a tv. I want a computer. I want a house. I need none of those, but I enjoy having them very much. Is it selfish of me to not give everything I've got (rather than some) to people who want/need it more? Yes. Do I care? No. Because I want what I want, just like everybody else.
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So you're saying the only way to be selfless is to only have shelter, food, water, and air?
Then isn't that also selfish, because in taking the water, food, air, and shelter you're depriving somebody else of it?
__________________
'The difference between false memories and true ones is the same as for jewels: it is always the false ones that look the most real, the most brilliant.' - Salvador Dali
Pie Jesu domine..... Donna eis requiem - *thwack*
'To become truly immortal, a work of art must escape all human limits: logic and common sense will only interfere. But once these barriers are broken, it will enter the realms of childhood visions and dreams.' - Giorgio de Chirico
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11-03-2008, 02:58 PM
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#127
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Harlem
Posts: 6,909
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Albert Mond
I was arguing with what you said about crazy people being "made crazy". That had nothing to do with anarchy, it had to do with you expressing (what seemed like) ignorance on the subject of mental health.
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Funny. Because people being made crazy is supported with a plethora of evidence. That's not to say that the statement you made about crazy people is false. It's also true.
Alas, if you're keeping up with the bigger subject of human nature and anarchy, then you will see that our small conversation of the "worst case scenario" kind of people didn't exactly apply to a system of social control. So in closing, I find the argument of human nature being inherently evil to be a weak one for the case of anarchy not being able to work.
__________________
No Gods. No Kings.
Not all beliefs and ideas are equal.
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11-03-2008, 02:58 PM
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#128
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Namibia
Posts: 2,526
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Originally Posted by LiUsAiDh
Says the guy who calls mentally ill people 'psychos'.
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Referring to them as 'psychos' has nothing to do with how much I know about mental illness. And it doesn't change the fact that Kontan implied that it was all external.
"psy·cho
psy·cho [skō]
n (plural psy·chos)
an offensive term for somebody who has a psychiatric or personality disorder (slang)
adj
an offensive term meaning behaving in an uncontrolled and unpredictable way (slang)
[Mid-20th century. Shortening of psychopathic .]"
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11-03-2008, 02:58 PM
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#129
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,678
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Albert Mond
I said everything. If you'd give everything you've got to others, why are you on a computer?
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Because this computer isn't mine to give. I've also got no way of giving it and nobody to give it to.
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11-03-2008, 02:59 PM
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#130
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: El Paso, Texas/ Ciudad Juarez, Chihuahua
Posts: 9,203
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua
Jillz: That's not entirely true. Sure, some anarchists may have helped with disaster relief, but so did a lot of organizations: Church groups, Peace Corps, etc.
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That doesn't make me wrong.
I'm mentioning my group and its initiative. I'm not saying it was the only one (although it really was one of the most effective)
However, the examples that you put; did they not take initiative without needing the consent of a one state before doing something good?
That's anarchism already.
__________________
"No theory, no ready-made system, no book that has ever been written will save the world.
I cleave to no system. I am a true seeker."
-Mikhail Bakunin
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Originally Posted by George Carlin
People who say they don’t care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don’t care what people think.
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11-03-2008, 03:00 PM
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#131
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Cumbria, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,153
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Albert Mond
That why I said "can be born". I was arguing with Kontan who implied that things MADE them that way.
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It is very rare that a child born with mentall illness becomes a r@pist, molester etc etc. R@pe is to do with control issues, which, are quite often brought on by very controlling mothers. So I was told, but don't quote me on that, I need to check it out again.
__________________
'The difference between false memories and true ones is the same as for jewels: it is always the false ones that look the most real, the most brilliant.' - Salvador Dali
Pie Jesu domine..... Donna eis requiem - *thwack*
'To become truly immortal, a work of art must escape all human limits: logic and common sense will only interfere. But once these barriers are broken, it will enter the realms of childhood visions and dreams.' - Giorgio de Chirico
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11-03-2008, 03:02 PM
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#132
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,678
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There's no way of linking events directly to the mental development of racists or murderers or what have you, but behaviourism is held in far higher regard than the biological pre-determinism Albert Mond is arguing.
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11-03-2008, 03:03 PM
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#133
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Cumbria, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,153
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Albert Mond
Referring to them as 'psychos' has nothing to do with how much I know about mental illness. And it doesn't change the fact that Kontan implied that it was all external.
"psy·cho
psy·cho [skō]
n (plural psy·chos)
an offensive term for somebody who has a psychiatric or personality disorder (slang)
adj
an offensive term meaning behaving in an uncontrolled and unpredictable way (slang)
[Mid-20th century. Shortening of psychopathic .]"
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How fucking dare you be admittedly offensive to people whom have no control whatsoever on their condition, and then call somebody 'ignorant on the subject of mental health'.
__________________
'The difference between false memories and true ones is the same as for jewels: it is always the false ones that look the most real, the most brilliant.' - Salvador Dali
Pie Jesu domine..... Donna eis requiem - *thwack*
'To become truly immortal, a work of art must escape all human limits: logic and common sense will only interfere. But once these barriers are broken, it will enter the realms of childhood visions and dreams.' - Giorgio de Chirico
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11-03-2008, 03:03 PM
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#134
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Harlem
Posts: 6,909
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian
That doesn't make me wrong.
I'm mentioning my group and its initiative. I'm not saying it was the only one (although it really was one of the most effective)
However, the examples that you put; did they not take initiative without needing the consent of a one state before doing something good?
That's anarchism already.
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Boom shaka laka!
__________________
No Gods. No Kings.
Not all beliefs and ideas are equal.
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11-03-2008, 03:06 PM
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#135
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Namibia
Posts: 2,526
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by LiUsAiDh
So you're saying the only way to be selfless is to only have shelter, food, water, and air?
Then isn't that also selfish, because in taking the water, food, air, and shelter you're depriving somebody else of it?
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First off, you can't deprive people of air. And you can't deprive people of water, food, or shelter if you live in the woods and drink from a river and eat whatever looks edible. The only person you'd be depriving anything of would be yourself.
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11-03-2008, 03:07 PM
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#136
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Namibia
Posts: 2,526
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by LiUsAiDh
How fucking dare you be admittedly offensive to people whom have no control whatsoever on their condition, and then call somebody 'ignorant on the subject of mental health'.
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A black person can call a black person a ni****, can they not?
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11-03-2008, 03:08 PM
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#137
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,678
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Albert Mond
First off, you can't deprive people of air. And you can't deprive people of water, food, or shelter if you live in the woods and drink from a river and eat whatever looks edible. The only person you'd be depriving anything of would be yourself.
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That would still be depriving them of it, but you're moving away from your original argument. Since these things are necessities to live, it's not selfish to use them.
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11-03-2008, 03:09 PM
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#138
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Namibia
Posts: 2,526
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JCC
There's no way of linking events directly to the mental development of racists or murderers or what have you, but behaviourism is held in far higher regard than the biological pre-determinism Albert Mond is arguing.
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What of schitzophrenia and bipolar disorder, though?
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11-03-2008, 03:09 PM
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#139
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Cumbria, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,153
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Albert Mond
First off, you can't deprive people of air. And you can't deprive people of water, food, or shelter if you live in the woods and drink from a river and eat whatever looks edible. The only person you'd be depriving anything of would be yourself.
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Of course you can, I breathe in a few billion oxygen atoms, and convert them into CO2, thereby preventing you from doing just that.
__________________
'The difference between false memories and true ones is the same as for jewels: it is always the false ones that look the most real, the most brilliant.' - Salvador Dali
Pie Jesu domine..... Donna eis requiem - *thwack*
'To become truly immortal, a work of art must escape all human limits: logic and common sense will only interfere. But once these barriers are broken, it will enter the realms of childhood visions and dreams.' - Giorgio de Chirico
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11-03-2008, 03:10 PM
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#140
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Cumbria, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,153
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Albert Mond
A black person can call a black person a ni****, can they not?
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They can, but the general ethics of doing so are another matter.
Tell me, exactly which mental illness do you have?
__________________
'The difference between false memories and true ones is the same as for jewels: it is always the false ones that look the most real, the most brilliant.' - Salvador Dali
Pie Jesu domine..... Donna eis requiem - *thwack*
'To become truly immortal, a work of art must escape all human limits: logic and common sense will only interfere. But once these barriers are broken, it will enter the realms of childhood visions and dreams.' - Giorgio de Chirico
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11-03-2008, 03:12 PM
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#141
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,678
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Albert Mond
What of schitzophrenia and bipolar disorder, though?
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Yeah, I was going to mention schizophrenia being a condition from birth, since I usually use that in retort to those fools who say that marijuana causes schizophrenia as if such a change to the normal structure of the brain could be caused by breathing in plant smoke.
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11-03-2008, 03:13 PM
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#142
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Cumbria, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,153
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Albert Mond
What of schitzophrenia and bipolar disorder, though?
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Schizophrenia usually manifests in the teens. Bipolar disorder I've never looked into.
However, the percentage of schizophrenic rapists that you hear of, is, well, I've never heard of one yet.
__________________
'The difference between false memories and true ones is the same as for jewels: it is always the false ones that look the most real, the most brilliant.' - Salvador Dali
Pie Jesu domine..... Donna eis requiem - *thwack*
'To become truly immortal, a work of art must escape all human limits: logic and common sense will only interfere. But once these barriers are broken, it will enter the realms of childhood visions and dreams.' - Giorgio de Chirico
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11-03-2008, 03:13 PM
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#143
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Namibia
Posts: 2,526
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JCC
That would still be depriving them of it, but you're moving away from your original argument. Since these things are necessities to live, it's not selfish to use them.
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Honestly? I don't think "ground under some trees" as shelter really qualifies as something one could take from another. And if somebody else by some chance lived there, I could just fucking move. If I eat a squirrel, it's not going to deprive anyone of a fresh salad, and probably won't deprive anyone of a squirrel, either, since there are plenty. And unless I can drink a whole lake (and there would only be one in the very best possible hypothetical forest), then I'm not depriving anyone of significant water. But, yes. It's not selfish since they're necessities.
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11-03-2008, 03:14 PM
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#144
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Harlem
Posts: 6,909
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So class, what does this have to say about the nature of human behavior and it's relation to an anarchistic social structure?
__________________
No Gods. No Kings.
Not all beliefs and ideas are equal.
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11-03-2008, 03:16 PM
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#145
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Namibia
Posts: 2,526
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by LiUsAiDh
They can, but the general ethics of doing so are another matter.
Tell me, exactly which mental illness do you have?
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I doubt that I have anything, but the doctors are such psychos that they think I've got bipolar. And aspies. Seriously. Those guys are fucking loonie tunes.
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11-03-2008, 03:18 PM
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#146
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 9,548
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Albert Mond
Honestly? I don't think "ground under some trees" as shelter really qualifies as something one could take from another. And if somebody else by some chance lived there, I could just fucking move. If I eat a squirrel, it's not going to deprive anyone of a fresh salad, and probably won't deprive anyone of a squirrel, either, since there are plenty. And unless I can drink a whole lake (and there would only be one in the very best possible hypothetical forest), then I'm not depriving anyone of significant water. But, yes. It's not selfish since they're necessities.
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Try living under a tree in the winter. Go ahead, try. Or drinking out of a lake filled with bacteria and disease, and poach endangered fish out of the water.
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11-03-2008, 03:19 PM
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#147
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Namibia
Posts: 2,526
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by KontanKarite
Once again, no one is saying Anarchy is a utopia. But neither is anything else we have. So the point that humans are evil by nature is kind of a silly argument.
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That implies that all systems are the same. I wouldn't say Communism or Nazism are as good as Socialism or Capitalism. Sure. There have been Socialist and Capitalist dictators. But I feel that at their best, they're far better systems than the other two.
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11-03-2008, 03:19 PM
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#148
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Cumbria, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,153
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Albert Mond
Honestly? I don't think "ground under some trees" as shelter really qualifies as something one could take from another.
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Why ever not? Because you perceive it to be one of 4 necessary items.
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And if somebody else by some chance lived there, I could just fucking move.
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Then they're being selfish aren't they?
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If I eat a squirrel, it's not going to deprive anyone of a fresh salad, and probably won't deprive anyone of a squirrel, either, since there are plenty.
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The food chains are all interconnected. Plenty? Are there not plenty back-scratchers, yet they are a luxury.
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And unless I can drink a whole lake (and there would only be one in the very best possible hypothetical forest), then I'm not depriving anyone of significant water. But, yes. It's not selfish since they're necessities.
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Plenty of water? In that region, maybe, though after you'd drunk the lake there wouldn't be.
Why?
__________________
'The difference between false memories and true ones is the same as for jewels: it is always the false ones that look the most real, the most brilliant.' - Salvador Dali
Pie Jesu domine..... Donna eis requiem - *thwack*
'To become truly immortal, a work of art must escape all human limits: logic and common sense will only interfere. But once these barriers are broken, it will enter the realms of childhood visions and dreams.' - Giorgio de Chirico
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11-03-2008, 03:20 PM
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#149
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Namibia
Posts: 2,526
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Saya
Try living under a tree in the winter. Go ahead, try. Or drinking out of a lake filled with bacteria and disease, and poach endangered fish out of the water.
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I didn't say it was practical. I said that's all you need. And a lot of animals are endangered because of greed rather than need.
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11-03-2008, 03:21 PM
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#150
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Cumbria, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,153
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Albert Mond
I doubt that I have anything, but the doctors are such psychos that they think I've got bipolar. And aspies. Seriously. Those guys are fucking loonie tunes.
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Then why the black/n****r comment?
If you have no mental disorder then that point is totally null.
__________________
'The difference between false memories and true ones is the same as for jewels: it is always the false ones that look the most real, the most brilliant.' - Salvador Dali
Pie Jesu domine..... Donna eis requiem - *thwack*
'To become truly immortal, a work of art must escape all human limits: logic and common sense will only interfere. But once these barriers are broken, it will enter the realms of childhood visions and dreams.' - Giorgio de Chirico
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