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Old 05-26-2012, 12:40 AM   #26
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Occasionally when I get drunk, I dance with streetlight poles. Does this count?
As long as you're singing a song from a musical, then YES.
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Old 06-01-2012, 10:24 AM   #27
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Apparently it's not just prostitutes, I've just been talking to a stripper who's proud of what she does.

You may now kick and scream.
Is there a problem with that?

To each their own.
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Old 06-02-2012, 03:30 AM   #28
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the problem is that as soon as you receive payment for your sexuality then you're a pitiable victim of the patriarchy and definitely being coerced by a pimp or a gang of nasty criminal men. Ask any of the posters here, they have read articles about it and are experts.
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Old 06-02-2012, 04:31 AM   #29
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the problem is that as soon as you receive payment for your sexuality then you're a pitiable victim of the patriarchy and definitely being coerced by a pimp or a gang of nasty criminal men. Ask any of the posters here, they have read articles about it and are experts.
It's not payment for your ''sexuality''. Receiving payment for sex work doesn't immediately mean that you were forced ''by a pimp or a gang of nasty criminal men''. Most engage in this line of work knowingly and aware of the dangers. Most sex worker activists are feminists., so it doesn't speak well of you to just assert that without even consulting a sex worker. In a relative sense, how are sex workers ''victims of the patriarchy''? If it wasn't obvious, women's rights have changed since the 1960s.
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Old 06-02-2012, 11:57 AM   #30
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Don't fall for his bullshit just because he presents a completely false summary of his side of the fight. Look for the thread called Sex Industry.
You will see there that his whole argument was "some women are not oppressed by being prostitutes, therefore there is nothing wrong with prostitution anywhere."

Look at how you even said it. "Most sex worker activists are feminists" Most sex worker activists. But you know damn well that most sex workers aren't activists, most sex workers in the world fall into that line of work for circumstances completely out of their control. And if you know enough to make the distinction and talk about sex worker activists then you know their precise point is to provide greater security and autonomy to sex workers because it's still a very violent, dangerous, and male-oriented industry. You know that they do not find empowerment in the job they do - they are the ones who decide to empower themselves and others in their line of work.

And Elystan is an example of that male gaze. His desire to talk about the sex industry wasn't fueled for the desire to empowerment or change. He thinks they're all already empowered because by his own admission he believes "money is empowerment, therefore shouldn't they already feel empowered as is?' He's alright with how things are; he has no problem talking down with former sex workers in this forum or other feminists (both women and men) who HAVE worked in the sex workers rights movement. That's because he only wanted a justification for being a john. It was never for the sake of the worker, it was for the sake of him as a consumer, as a john.

And wanna know how pathetic and whiny he's about it? The goddamn thread was created in SEPTEMBER of last year https://www.gothic.net/boards/showthread.php?t=25473
And he still won't let it go because god forbid he's just wrong and there might be people in the world who have more knowledge about this shit than he does - probably because unlike him, their values are shaped by direct experience instead of idle and detached principles and a desire to be right.



You fell into a trap that idiots in forums always do. They rehash old fights because they refuse to apologize; they paint a completely false idea of what the argument was about, and hope to win over new members to their side because they weren't there to see how much of a dipshit the dude was.
Don't fall into that. Take the time to read how stupid Elystan's opinions are.
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Old 06-02-2012, 12:07 PM   #31
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Holy shit. I hadn't realized that was so long ago.
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Old 06-02-2012, 02:32 PM   #32
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I already thought he was stupid before I knew he was stupid before this. Hence why I have been treating this particular thread as a joke.
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Old 06-02-2012, 03:09 PM   #33
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By the way, this part
Quote:
You fell into a trap that idiots in forums always do.
I hope it was clear I'm not saying it's idiots who always fall into that trap, but rather that it's idiots who try to set up such traps.
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You fucking people [war veterans] are only a step below entitled rich kids, the only difference being you had to do and witness horrible things, instead of being given everything.
real classy
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Old 06-02-2012, 09:36 PM   #34
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Alan,

I didn't state that most sex workers were activists. I wrote that most sex worker activists are feminists-there's a difference. There aren't any reliable stats for you to assert that ''most sex workers in the world fall into that line of work for circumstances completely out of their control''. I don't know why you insist on composing my own argument and then responding to it because it's convenient. I guess I'm not the only idiot around here, eh?

I wasn't aware of Elystan's notoriety on here.
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Old 06-02-2012, 10:03 PM   #35
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I didn't state that most sex workers were activists. I wrote that most sex worker activists are feminists-there's a difference.
So... exactly what I said, right?

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Look at how you even said it. "Most sex worker activists are feminists" Most sex worker activists.
Also, I never called you an idiot. I called him an idiot, and I even made a second post specifically to make sure you got that I'm not calling you an idiot.
But fine, you go ahead and read into it whatever you want.
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You fucking people [war veterans] are only a step below entitled rich kids, the only difference being you had to do and witness horrible things, instead of being given everything.
real classy
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Old 06-02-2012, 10:12 PM   #36
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So... exactly what I said, right?

No. This is what you said: ''But you know damn well that most sex workers aren't activists'' which implies that I stated it.

Also, I never called you an idiot. I called him an idiot, and I even made a second post specifically to make sure you got that I'm not calling you an idiot.
But fine, you go ahead and read into it whatever you want.


Well, in all fairness it was vague.
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Old 06-02-2012, 10:15 PM   #37
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Nope, it wasn't vague. I explicitly made another post to make sure it's clear that the idiot is the one that sets up that trap for the noobs.

And what did I exactly said? I said that you said it yourself, that you said most 'sex worker activists' not most sex workers.
I very explicitly assumed that you clearly know more about sex worker rights than most people if you already make that distinction, and thus you should know very well that there's a difference between the sex worker rights movement and the sex worker industry itself.

But no, you preferred to feel offended by something I didn't even say and then ironically accuse me of 'composing your own argument'.

I take it you haven't read the thread I linked you?
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You fucking people [war veterans] are only a step below entitled rich kids, the only difference being you had to do and witness horrible things, instead of being given everything.
real classy
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Old 06-02-2012, 10:19 PM   #38
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lol, I love it when people fight over literally nothing. Quick someone fetch the trolls, let's see how bad this can get.
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Old 06-02-2012, 10:25 PM   #39
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You should have made it in your initial response because I missed it.

''Most sex worker activists. But you know damn well that most sex workers aren't activists, most sex workers in the world fall into that line of work for circumstances completely out of their control.''

You're implying that I stated this.

I very explicitly assumed that you clearly know more about sex worker rights than most people if you already make that distinction, and thus you should know very well that there's a difference between the sex worker rights movement and the sex worker industry itself.

I can make the distinction. Nothing in my responses blurs the line, so what's your point?

But no, you preferred to feel offended by something I didn't even say and then ironically accuse me of 'composing your own argument'.

I quoted you on it, so I didn't make it up. You were going off on a tangent.

I've glanced at the thread, and I know what you mean.

Cheers.
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Old 06-02-2012, 10:27 PM   #40
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Dude, I never implied anything. I'm fucking saying that if you know enough to write 'activists' at the end you already know about the sex workers rights movement and you should know better than to listen to Elystan.

Seriously, why the hell are you complaining about me saying you know what you're talking about? It's like M.O.C. is saying; you're literally fighting over nothing.
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You fucking people [war veterans] are only a step below entitled rich kids, the only difference being you had to do and witness horrible things, instead of being given everything.
real classy
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Old 06-02-2012, 10:32 PM   #41
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Lol, maybe not intentionally; it's just the way you worded it. It implies that I stated it.

I'm not complaining about you, just what you said.
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Old 06-02-2012, 10:38 PM   #42
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If your true intention was to illustrate how dumb Elystan is then you have succeeded. Thanks for the heads up.

Good day sir.
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Old 06-03-2012, 07:38 AM   #43
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Quote:
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You will see there that his whole argument was "some women are not oppressed by being prostitutes, therefore there is nothing wrong with prostitution anywhere."
You know full well that I never said anything of the sort.
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Old 06-03-2012, 11:40 AM   #44
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Yes you did
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Old 06-03-2012, 12:10 PM   #45
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Here?

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Originally Posted by Elystan View Post
So I'm sure we can agree that human trafficking is a form of slavery and to be condemned as such.
Or here?

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Originally Posted by Elystan View Post
I feel like I'm repeating myself here, but I think we can take is as a given that human trafficking and being forced to sell sex is an appalling thing?
Or here?

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Originally Posted by Elystan View Post
I can't explain why the current state of prostitution is okay because it obviously isn't.
etc etc

Fine I'm posting in the thread whatever, may as well justify it.

Thought of you guys a few weeks back, thought of that argument when someone made a post on facebook about how disgusting it is when men go to see strippers, and a few people all jumped in like "Yeah strippers are all ilegally trafficked into the country" and turned out the girl had a friend who'd just applied for a job at a new strip club and was actually like "no I enjoy this". Then it was all awkward.

And while I'm here I may as well continue. The reaction you all had to any attempt to even discuss the question just goes to show how taboo the subject still is even amongst 'enlightened progressives'.
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Old 06-03-2012, 01:18 PM   #46
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Here
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Where are you getting your info? Girls in brothels might only make £80, but some girls can make nearly £1000
Where your whole argument lies on the stupidly rare case of some prostitutes earning 2000 bucks when the average is 7 and thus all prostitution is ok.

Or here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elystan View Post
I didn't know that. I do know what the local brothels charge (got drunk with a friend once and went in, he paid for me to spend a very awkward half hour being completely unaroused), and I know it's a lot less than a lot of the independent escorts.
Where you ignore statistics because of that one time you went to a brothel.

Or here
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Money is obviously very important but the amount is arbitrary.
Where you immediately backpedal and now you don't even care that the average wage of a prostitute is seven bucks an hour.

And it's immediately followed by this
Quote:
The question is 'were they coerced by threat of violence or were there other ways to make money which were rejected in favour of this one?'
If it's the former in 95% of cases that's fucked up, but says nothing about the other 5%, which you seem to refuse to acknowledge.
Where once again you say that the 5% completely justifies the 95% even as you yourself have admitted that the 95% is fucked up.
You use the same logic of capitalists: the 99% are fucked, but because they can hypothetically rise to be the 1% and the the ones fucking everyone else up, there's nothing wrong with the system.
Where's the option where no one fucks anyone else up?

Or here
Quote:
I mean I didn't check the amsterdam study very carefully and I'm sure the statistics mean something but where I live it would be certainly possible for a girl to go and get a job there if she wanted to.
Where you don't care about any other prostitute except the ones in your locale. If they can do it everyone can, right?

Or that last quote of your in which you conveniently deleted the last bit
Quote:
I can't explain why the current state of prostitution is okay because it obviously isn't, as it's rife with coercion, trafficking etc. My question is about the remainder
Except your question WASN'T about the remainder and instead you have been constantly using that remainder to justify the whole.
And you can't whine about how that was your whole intention because that's the precise reason you made this thread:
https://www.gothic.net/boards/showthread.php?t=25630
You wanted to backpedal. You didn't want to talk about sex work anymore, you just wanted to talk about the privileged white women who take up being escorts because they can afford to not be on the streets, to not have a pimp, to not be chased by the police.

And this is all just in the first two pages.

And by the way, this whole thread is bullshit because you make a passive-aggressive bitchy statement that
Quote:
Apparently it's not just prostitutes, I've just been talking to a stripper who's proud of what she does.
As if we didn't know the full extent of the sex work industry.

Well, let's go back and see what Grausamkeit told you in the very first page after you bitched at her.
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Originally Posted by Grausamkeit View Post
Title of the thread is 'sex industry'. That would entail strippers, as well.
And what was your response?

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Originally Posted by Elystan View Post
Changed my mind
Awesome.
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You fucking people [war veterans] are only a step below entitled rich kids, the only difference being you had to do and witness horrible things, instead of being given everything.
real classy
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Old 06-03-2012, 01:32 PM   #47
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Your argument.. all prostitution is ok.
I refer you to my previous post. I'm still curious as to where I present this 'argument'

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Except your question WASN'T about the remainder
Except it was. I refer you again to my previous post where I hope we can all agree that sexual slavery is wrong. Okay right cool, question answered, in 95%, 99% of cases, shit is wack.

Okay cool next question. No I'm not allowed another question? I have to try an argue a position I never even held? Forgive me for passing on that?
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Old 06-03-2012, 01:56 PM   #48
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Well there was that time where I talked about the girl I knew who got ***** and had the shit beaten out of her because she turned down a john and how nothing happened to her attacker because she was just a whore, you threw her in with that 95% and completely ignored the fact that she wasn't. She was in that privileged group and the whole point of me telling you that story was to show that even for them there is a lot of shit that they have to deal with because of the realities of the sex industry.
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Old 06-03-2012, 02:30 PM   #49
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Well there was that time where I talked about the girl I knew who got ***** and had the shit beaten out of her because she turned down a john and how nothing happened to her attacker because she was just a whore, you threw her in with that 95% and completely ignored the fact that she wasn't. She was in that privileged group and the whole point of me telling you that story was to show that even for them there is a lot of shit that they have to deal with because of the realities of the sex industry.
You posted that on page four of the thread, and thankyou for posting it was a sensible and relevant post, but I didn't post again until page 7 and I didn't discuss her case at all (knowing how anal you all are I suppose I should distinguish between making a reference to it and discussing it, I did the former), and certainly didn't "throw her in with the 95%".
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Old 06-04-2012, 07:31 AM   #50
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Cool story Bro.



I found this link from some feminist stuff I was going through, it's worth a read. (Replacing 'sex positive' with 'privileged'.) http://blog.audaciaray.com/post/2022...rkers?ae7e3128
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