Manson is totally like... not decadent.. - Page 2

I_Zik · 10-05-2009, 11:55 AM

The best way I`ve found is to just type what I would be saying, the way I say it. That usually works best for me. ^_^ As for the "decadence" issue. I`d say that he is, but you have ask yourself what your priorities are. Music? Style? Message? uuuuggggh Popularity?

AsylumVoid · 10-06-2009, 03:38 AM

Marilyn Manson has some really decent tunes, his last two-three albums where poor though, really poor.
but Antichrist Superstar, Holywood and Mechanical Animals have some stupidly good tunes on them. When he started being all like..."I am sooo decadant, look at me masturbate in COCAINE!" Then I stopped listening...he's also partly responsible for bringing back burlesque and I bloody hate burlesque, when you can type in "tits" on google and get back 409,997,450,437,943,730,743 hits, suddenly dancing around in big pants and nipples pasties to "tease" an audience seems really irrelevant.

Just my thoughts.

Ophelia's Snorkel · 10-06-2009, 04:16 AM

Manson just irritates me to no end. Yes, he comes off well in interviews, and I'm sure that he'd be successful in whatever he turned his efforts to. I just really, desperately wish he'd chosen some other style to pilfer and some other subculture to exploit. He's done goth no favours, and, in my opinion, a fair amount of harm. My distate for him is beyond logic at this point and is a visceral reaction.

AsylumVoid · 10-06-2009, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ophelia's Snorkel

Manson just irritates me to no end. Yes, he comes off well in interviews, and I'm sure that he'd be successful in whatever he turned his efforts to. I just really, desperately wish he'd chosen some other style to pilfer and some other subculture to exploit. He's done goth no favours, and, in my opinion, a fair amount of harm. My distate for him is beyond logic at this point and is a visceral reaction.

I always thought he was more mainstream metal than Goth and I've never actually seen him claim Gothness. He's always said that he plays rock music. He's not in my good books any more simply because he went crap and there is better music but I still don't think he can be blamed for ruining our subculture alone.
I think the deal for the general public is scary man in black make-up...he must be a Goth. He's the most well known one, there are bands like Cradle of Filth and Evanesence which are fairly well known by the general public and swiftly labelled "Goth", because obviously the general public don't give a crap about our subculture and have no interest in harm or good for us. We're just those wierd people in black make up, like Marilyn Manson and Cradle of Filth. Yes, they could go on Google and look it up but they aren't going to because they already think they know "what we're about" and we don't interest them once they're at home with a cup of tea.
Like most bands he had words placed on what he did, like when the press invented the term "Shoegaze" for what is now known as the genre, Shoegaze. People in the spotlight very rarely are able to define themselves, the public and the press define the people in the spotlight. They can paint us any way they want and Marilyn Manson was handy because he's stupidly mainstream and did wierd shit. He didn't just walk into a studio thinking about making pop music and then decided "Goth makes more money, I'm gunna steal that." He was a guy, in a band, who did wierd shit, got famous because Trent Reznor liked his stuff and obviously because he wears make up and leather corsets people are gunna say he's Goth because they know nothing about us and don't really care to. I think the media exploited Manson and that a complete lack of understanding and a lack of wanting to understand did us harm. I think Marilyn Manson just wanted to make tunes and put on a good show. yeah, he did get a lot of money for doing so but so did Alice Cooper and Ozzy Osbourne. The media lapped up both of them and Manson is exactly the same.

If it wasn't him it'd be something else. The general public is generally ignorant and we look like nut jobs, basically. Not a good start, lol.

Ophelia's Snorkel · 10-06-2009, 06:45 AM

Lots of good points in there, especially about how labels are invented and parameters for those labels are set. You're right that most musicians aren't consulted about it and many can't be blamed for the general population's perception of them (and god, yes, they are a misinformed bunch - which is a tanget for some other post). However, in my nauseating masochism, I've watched some of MM's videos and interviews; I wanted to be informed before I formed an opinion. As an example, the Tainted Love video is especially cringe-worthy, even if it was meant (giving all the benefit of the doubt I can muster) as parody or camp. A hearse with "goth thug" on the license plate? Fuck whoever's idea that was, and damn him for going along with it. The thing goes downhill from there, and it's only one instance. His work's misogynistic strain is another.

But, my real problem with him as an artist is that he had opportunities to link himself to stage traditions like the kind of shock rock Alice Cooper excelled at, which would have been more accurate and might have led to a bigger following for him, and instead he rode along on the misapplied "goth" label and that's been no end of frustration for actual fans of goth rock.

Your post is so reasonable and I do wish I could share your equanimous attitude. I tend to get a bit over-protective of the subculture, and MM is one of those things that sets me off. I'm not exactly sure why some things get under my skin more than others, or why he should be one of them.

SiouxsiePernova · 10-06-2009, 07:07 AM

Didn't Manson send fan mail to Rozz Williams at one point?

Ophelia's Snorkel · 10-06-2009, 07:12 AM

If he did, I hope it was posthumously.

AsylumVoid · 10-06-2009, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ophelia's Snorkel

Lots of good points in there, especially about how labels are invented and parameters for those labels are set. You're right that most musicians aren't consulted about it and many can't be blamed for the general population's perception of them (and god, yes, they are a misinformed bunch - which is a tanget for some other post). However, in my nauseating masochism, I've watched some of MM's videos and interviews; I wanted to be informed before I formed an opinion. As an example, the Tainted Love video is especially cringe-worthy, even if it was meant (giving all the benefit of the doubt I can muster) as parody or camp. A hearse with "goth thug" on the license plate? Fuck whoever's idea that was, and damn him for going along with it. The thing goes downhill from there, and it's only one instance. His work's misogynistic strain is another.

But, my real problem with him as an artist is that he had opportunities to link himself to stage traditions like the kind of shock rock Alice Cooper excelled at, which would have been more accurate and might have led to a bigger following for him, and instead he rode along on the misapplied "goth" label and that's been no end of frustration for actual fans of goth rock.

Your post is so reasonable and I do wish I could share your equanimous attitude. I tend to get a bit over-protective of the subculture, and MM is one of those things that sets me off. I'm not exactly sure why some things get under my skin more than others, or why he should be one of them.

I get very protective as well, which is why I try and be polite to strangers etc A lot of things have done us harm and we're trying to make up for it constantly, I just think there is a larger cobweb of things that contributes little things to where we are today on "societies acceptance scale" and I like to try and work out little society cobwebs.

Yes, Tainted Love has a terrible, terrible video, point blank and should never be shown to any body ever again, that was when he started to become a joke to be honest with you. Even as someone who liked some of his albums, I have facepalmed at a lot of the stuff he has done in recent years. However, now he seems to be so tame and lost all shock value and is now just a dude in make up and nobody really cares about him any more because he isn't profitable unless he's being shocking. Which MIGHT actually be good for us, who knows? Especially after Dita, who is really popular now etc
Most of the qualms I have with Manson is with him as a musician, really. His new stuff is terrible and I have no trouble saying that he's lost it.

In the UK around 2000-2005, I think one of the biggest things was that alt. fashion EXPLODED into mainstream fashion, everyone was going alt., Manson, Slipknot, Rob Zombie, Korn etc is the easiest alt. Music to get hold of, that's where kids started back in 2000-2005. I know, I was one of them. So you got a huge influx of kids who think being alternative is "cool" and everything. Kids were dressing first and listening to the music second. I think that fashion screwed it up truly for us during those years. Manson got popular because he's so easy to get into. Basically, us kids in the UK around 2000-2005, we ruined shit HARD! in our country. I'm paying for it now. LOL! I don't know if it was the same in other countries...but I know that in the UK that was a big thing. I wish I could go back at this age and really take a good look at it and work it all out. It rushed by so fast and I was so young. Funnily enough, one of the only Goths left out of that noughties explosion. Well, out of those who I knew when it happened. Now in the UK trad is having a pretty big come back, especially now....for some reason...all the cybers disappeared overnight lol!

Mir · 10-06-2009, 08:04 AM

You people take this shit far too seriously.

Ophelia's Snorkel · 10-06-2009, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AsylumVoid

I get very protective as well, which is why I try and be polite to strangers etc A lot of things have done us harm and we're trying to make up for it constantly, I just think there is a larger cobweb of things that contributes little things to where we are today on "societies acceptance scale" and I like to try and work out little society cobwebs.

Yes, Tainted Love has a terrible, terrible video, point blank and should never be shown to any body ever again, that was when he started to become a joke to be honest with you. Even as someone who liked some of his albums, I have facepalmed at a lot of the stuff he has done in recent years. However, now he seems to be so tame and lost all shock value and is now just a dude in make up and nobody really cares about him any more because he isn't profitable unless he's being shocking. Which MIGHT actually be good for us, who knows? Especially after Dita, who is really popular now etc
Most of the qualms I have with Manson is with him as a musician, really. His new stuff is terrible and I have no trouble saying that he's lost it.

In the UK around 2000-2005, I think one of the biggest things was that alt. fashion EXPLODED into mainstream fashion, everyone was going alt., Manson, Slipknot, Rob Zombie, Korn etc is the easiest alt. Music to get hold of, that's where kids started back in 2000-2005. I know, I was one of them. So you got a huge influx of kids who think being alternative is "cool" and everything. Kids were dressing first and listening to the music second. I think that fashion screwed it up truly for us during those years. Manson got popular because he's so easy to get into. Basically, us kids in the UK around 2000-2005, we ruined shit HARD! in our country. I'm paying for it now. LOL! I don't know if it was the same in other countries...but I know that in the UK that was a big thing. I wish I could go back at this age and really take a good look at it and work it all out. It rushed by so fast and I was so young. Funnily enough, one of the only Goths left out of that noughties explosion. Well, out of those who I knew when it happened. Now in the UK trad is having a pretty big come back, especially now....for some reason...all the cybers disappeared overnight lol!

We seem to be a few years behind you. I don't see as many cybers as I used to see in the clubs, but they are still there in numbers enough to sometimes take over our back room (we find the tourists end up in there as well, so that's nice for those of us who would lilke to be left in peace in the front room). When I tutor the fifth graders, they ask a lot of personal questions and often trot out a love for Slipknot or Evanescence as a "common interest". I hate to disappoint them, but as gently as possible I try to correct that misconception. They can all use YouTube, and I love recommending actual goth bands to those who really want to know.

I feel pretty ambivalent about how the outside world sees the subculture. Obviously, I do try to dispel myths and represent us as well as I can, because I'm proud of this culture. There's a part of me that wants to show people how lovely it really is. There's a part of me that stubbornly continues to think that if people could only see us as we are, they would be nicer to us and glad that we are here. But there is also, on the opposite side, a feeling that exposure equals vulnerability. We've lasted so many decades because, generally, people don't bother to learn about us. Even when they think they are assimilating the subculture through fashion trends, visual cues, and other commercial exploitation - and I almost forgot the evangelism/church services focused on attracting goths - they never really infiltrate our ranks. The only people who do are those who want it badly enough to pursue it - and in the process learn about it - even though it's difficult. Yes, anyone with a computer and a brain can eventually learn all about the subculture, but it takes time, commitment, and participation. So, being misunderstood can also be a sheild and an effective filter.

The best balance I've been able to strike is to address specific misconceptions as they come into my personal conversations with mundanes, and then take it no further.

blindNsect · 10-06-2009, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AsylumVoid

I've never actually seen him claim Gothness.

In Baddeley's Dissecting Marilyn Manson he claims both gothness and decadence in an indirect way. He describes a meeting he had with Daniel Ash, and in the end told Ash (who claimed Manson was pseudo-Goth) that "that's why you're balding and I have a blossoming career." He said Ash was a total prick.

Ophelia's Snorkel · 10-06-2009, 09:24 AM

Although I've read a few articles and book excerpts by Baddeley, I've not read that book. Anyone who would say something like that to our Daniel Ash sounds pretty damned exploitative. If Manson's story is true, then Ash was right, and I know who the real prick is between them.

blindNsect · 10-06-2009, 09:27 AM

Lol. Purist..

Ophelia's Snorkel · 10-06-2009, 09:31 AM

Haha, yeah. I guess you're right. But I'm old and crotchety - that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it : )

badteccy · 10-08-2009, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DemiGoth

Like oh my goth noo way!!! Thats like sooo unkoolio!!!

You are aware that Marilyn Manson has been around for YEARS and practically no one on this site likes his music. I've yet to see one positive comment about him or his music.

...

Obviously they are aware...

creature6 · 10-08-2009, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DemiGoth View Post
Like oh my goth noo way!!! Thats like sooo unkoolio!!!

You are aware that Marilyn Manson has been around for YEARS and practically no one on this site likes his music. I've yet to see one positive comment about him or his music.

well i do not dislike him personally and i like his early stuff .

Lurci · 10-17-2009, 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ophelia's Snorkel

Manson just irritates me to no end. Yes, he comes off well in interviews, and I'm sure that he'd be successful in whatever he turned his efforts to. I just really, desperately wish he'd chosen some other style to pilfer and some other subculture to exploit. He's done goth no favours, and, in my opinion, a fair amount of harm. My distate for him is beyond logic at this point and is a visceral reaction.

I agree greatly.