Magdelin Laundry

[Acharis]

If we're going to get into semantics, I'd say that the term could be 'serfdom' - but there wasn't really a chance to raise a certain amount of money to buy freedom. Bondsperson isn't a great fit either.


I'm with Despanan though.
Despite the racialised and problematic nature of the word, and the fact that it's derived from a more extreme and systemic oppression in history - I don't think that Magdalene laundries and sex trafficking could be dismissed as forms of slavery.


Anyway. Unlawful restraint, forced labour, failure to pay wages. Not cool.

[Versus]

Originally Posted by Saya

So, pointing out we have privilege and are still reaping the benefits of black slavery and therefore shouldn't be quick to cry out racialized terms when white people who don't affect you in any regard are oppressed?

Apparently.

Originally Posted by Despanan

Man nigga, suck a sack of dirty baby dicks you plagiarizing cock-mongrel.

I know where you sleep. I will cut your head off and wear it as a hat for five states.

I love u bro.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Acharis

If we're going to get into semantics, I'd say that the term could be 'serfdom' - but there wasn't really a chance to raise a certain amount of money to buy freedom. Bondsperson isn't a great fit either.


I'm with Despanan though.
Despite the racialised and problematic nature of the word, and the fact that it's derived from a more extreme and systemic oppression in history - I don't think that Magdalene laundries and sex trafficking could be dismissed as forms of slavery.


Anyway. Unlawful restraint, forced labour, failure to pay wages. Not cool.

What Versus is saying though is that its not necessarily that its not slavery, its just very uncomfortable coming from a privileged white dude (or any white person) to talk about other white people when they previously show little sensitivity when it comes to racialized terms or oppressions or the opinions of women and PoC.

What I'm saying is that I find it highly suspicious to be suddenly concerned for white women who were exploited when we have a history of not giving a rat's ass when it isn't a white person.

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Saya

So, pointing out we have privilege and are still reaping the benefits of black slavery and therefore shouldn't be quick to cry out racialized terms when white people who don't affect you in any regard are oppressed?

My outrage in this case has less to do with them being white and more to do with the fact that:

1) This is new information

2) This is more recent than American Slavery, as in, this occurred during my lifetime

3) This particular slavery is faith-based, and that happens to be a type of oppression I am personally passionate about fighting.

4) I just saw a play about it, and art, especially live theatre is a very effective way of making an argument more personal.

You just learned about this last night, dude. There were 133 unmarked graves discovered, not 30,000, which is roughly the number of women who were in Magdalene asylums in the last 150 years.

There were 133 unmarked graves found in ONE location. There were multiple locations so the body count is probably much higher.

You mean were they classified under flora and fauna, considered animals, considered property, considered subhuman? Not really. They were poor and destitute and this is like Randian charity.

Once again, there are other cases where the term slave applies, that were not the same as American slavery, which is a particularly brutal version of it. Rome, Greece, you brought up the Jews in Egypt, modern sexual slavery, hell the slave societies of Africa weren't nearly as bad as American slavery, and in fact were closer to European serfdom. We still use the term "slave".

There is no objectivity here. We're white people with an interest in maintaining white supremacy and only caring about white people. The only thing that makes that appear "objective" is because it comes natural to us and we don't see it as a bias.

People naturally care more about things that look like them, and remind them of themselves, and directly relate to them. This is a product of our evolution.

Now I won't disagree that white-supremacy and euro-centric culture plays into this and exacerbates this tendency, but to argue that a person is physically incapable of looking beyond this and making an informed judgement because of the color of their skin or their cultural background is pretty damn racist. It's also stupid.

You can argue that communication is more difficult due to cultural norms and ethnic backgrounds, and that there is a greater chance of misinterpretation, but to argue what you're arguing presupposes that a certain amount of communication between different races and cultures is impossible.

And if you believe that, then you're a believer in one form or another of racial or cultural supremacy.

And in that case you're a horrible person, so fuck you.

The girls were blamed for being there too, they were seen as deserving. It was punishment and an attempt at rehabilitation, just like the exploitation of prisoners is considered deserved and rehabilitating. The difference is is that one group is white and the other is mainly PoC.

Once again, that doesn't mean I should be LESS angry about this, it means I should be MORE angry about the Prison Industrial Complex. Which I am angry about, I just haven't seen a play about it recently.

[Versus]

C'mon, AshleyO. I need you right now.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Despanan

My outrage in this case has less to do with them being white and more to do with the fact that:

1) This is new information

To you, because you're that privileged.

2) This is more recent than American Slavery, as in, this occurred during my lifetime

Did you know? The prison industrial complex in the states was meant as a continuation of black slavery. When slaves were freed, vagrancy laws were invented to make sure black men went right back to jail, and now they could exploit their labour that way. The effects of black slavery is still occuring during your lifetime.

3) This particular slavery is faith-based, and that happens to be a type of oppression I am personally passionate about fighting.

I didn't want to suggest you only care because its faith based and you can tag your own feelings of atheist oppression on the torture and pain of women, but there you go.

4) I just saw a play about it, and art, especially live theatre is a very effective way of making an argument more personal.

Now I'm just picturing you with a top hat and a monocle expecting people to put on plays about their oppressions so you'll learn about it. Actually, there was a pretty big splash made when The Magdalene Sisters movie was made.

There were 133 unmarked graves found in ONE location. There were multiple locations so the body count is probably much higher.

But we don't know yet, so you can't make that claim unless you have evidence, isn't that what you're usually all about?

Once again, there are other cases where the term slave applies, that were not the same as American slavery, which is a particularly brutal version of it. Rome, Greece, you brought up the Jews in Egypt, modern sexual slavery, hell the slave societies of Africa weren't nearly as bad as American slavery, and in fact were closer to European serfdom. We still use the term "slave".

Again, we're not experiencing the benefits of Jewish slavery in Egypt. We're benefiting from the oppression of PoC, in which we feel comfortable comparing the oppression of white people in Ireland to slavery and saying the n word just to be funny.

People naturally care more about things that look like them, and remind them of themselves, and directly relate to them. This is a product of our evolution.

Its a product of white supremacy. I've heard this exact argument against interracial romance, you know.

Now I won't disagree that white-supremacy and euro-centric culture plays into this and exacerbates this tendency, but to argue that a person is physically incapable of looking beyond this and making an informed judgement because of the color of their skin or their cultural background is pretty damn racist. It's also stupid.

We have the reverse racist square down! Actually, its not stupid. Its your world view. Your bias. We all have one and it restricts us in several ways. This is cultural anthropology 101, dude.

You can argue that communication is more difficult due to cultural norms and ethnic backgrounds, and that there is a greater chance of misinterpretation, but to argue what you're arguing presupposes that a certain amount of communication between different races and cultures is impossible.

But you're not interested in communicating between different races and cultures, that's the point. We just view the world through a white lense without bothering consulting PoC.

And if you believe that, then you're a believer in one form or another of racial or cultural supremacy.

And in that case you're a horrible person, so fuck you.

Seriously, dude? You know I'm just another white person trying to stop you from making a total ass of yourself yet again?

Once again, that doesn't mean I should be LESS angry about this, it means I should be MORE angry about the Prison Industrial Complex. Which I am angry about, I just haven't seen a play about it recently.

Well hang on while I go get a few costumes so you'll care about it. Or tie it in to religious persecution somehow so you can attach your atheist agenda to it and feel like you're part of an oppressed class.

[Versus]

Despanan, do you remember that comment I made on your facebook when you were being thrown down and arrested because someone compared it to "Hitler and the Jews?"

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Saya

To you, because you're that privileged.

I don't consider ignorance a privilege. I consider it something that needs to be constantly remedied.

Did you know? The prison industrial complex in the states was meant as a continuation of black slavery. When slaves were freed, vagrancy laws were invented to make sure black men went right back to jail, and now they could exploit their labour that way. The effects of black slavery is still occuring during your lifetime.

Yes, I know that.

I didn't want to suggest you only care because its faith based and you can tag your own feelings of atheist oppression on the torture and pain of women, but there you go.

There's a difference between "tagging my own feelings of atheist oppression" onto someone else, and recognizing when a problem intersects with an issue I'm passionate about. There was a Pakistani theatre group a while back which put on a satirical play about Burkas after they had been ordered not to by the government. I had a more emotional reaction to that than most of the other cases of people standing up to oppression in that region because I'm an artist.

Now I'm just picturing you with a top hat and a monocle expecting people to put on plays about their oppressions so you'll learn about it. Actually, there was a pretty big splash made when The Magdalene Sisters movie was made.

Theatre is the oldest method of storytelling. It taps into a primal part of our nature in ways that other communication does not. You can mock me for stating a fact but it doesn't make your point any stronger.

But we don't know yet, so you can't make that claim unless you have evidence, isn't that what you're usually all about?

There's a difference between making a reasonable supposition based upon the available evidence, and drawing a firm conclusion. You're grasping at straws here Saya.

Again, we're not experiencing the benefits of Jewish slavery in Egypt. We're benefiting from the oppression of PoC, in which we feel comfortable comparing the oppression of white people in Ireland to slavery and saying the n word just to be funny.

Saying the n word was out of place. I was using it ironically and intentionally being provocative but in hindsight it was inappropriate. Please accept my apologies.

As for comparing the conditions of the women in the laundries to American slavery, I didn't do that, Versus did that. Now, you could argue that slave is so racially charged a word that one cannot help but make that connection, but again, then we shouldn't call the slaves from ancient Greece slaves, nor the Egyptians slaves, etc. and I think it's dangerous to apply that term solely to one particularly brutal version of this behavior, as it cheapens the struggle of other people who have endured this kind of inhuman treatment.

Its a product of white supremacy. I've heard this exact argument against interracial romance, you know.

No, Saya, white supremacy is a product of this and many other parts of our psychology and society. I'm talking about our tendency to project emotions onto drawings that vaguely resemble faces and prioritize our level of reaction based upon the most immediate threats.

One could use that argument to justify forbidding interracial marriage, but it would be a fallacious argument, just as your argument against it is fallacious due to your attempt to use guilt by association to dismiss it.

We have the reverse racist square down! Actually, its not stupid. Its your world view. Your bias. We all have one and it restricts us in several ways. This is cultural anthropology 101, dude.

No, it wouldn't be reverse racist, it would just be racist. Also reverse racism is a stupid term, as the reverse of racism is the absence of making judgements based on race. I suppose you could say "reverse bigotry" but that's pretty much privilege...anyway I digress.

The point is bias restricts us but it does not make it impossible to draw the correct conclusion, it just makes things more difficult.

But you're not interested in communicating between different races and cultures, that's the point. We just view the world through a white lense without bothering consulting PoC.

You certainly are assuming alot. Suffice to say you're wrong.

Seriously, dude? You know I'm just another white person trying to stop you from making a total ass of yourself yet again?

I'm pointing out the very natural result of the logic you're putting forth. I don't think you're a horrible person, i was being hyperbolic. I do think you don't think this shit through though.

If there can be no communication or understanding between humans of a different cultural background beyond a certain level, then there can be no true commonality. If there is no commonality, then there can be no true equality. If there is no equality then supremacy of one kind or another is the only answer.

I'm sorry, this is math Saya. Humans of a different race are not a different species. We're not fucking aliens. Communication and understanding can be made more difficult due to differences in cultures and experience but it's not impossible.

Well hang on while I go get a few costumes so you'll care about it. Or tie it in to religious persecution somehow so you can attach your atheist agenda to it and feel like you're part of an oppressed class.

Reducto Ad-absurdum, straw man, ad hominem.

Three for three. You're bad at this.

Despanan, do you remember that comment I made on your facebook when you were being thrown down and arrested because someone compared it to "Hitler and the Jews?"

Sadly, Godwin's law exists for a reason dude. There is no comparison between me getting my ass kicked by the NYPD and genocide. There is a comparison between multiple separate groups of people being unjustly forced to do hard labor against their will for an indefinite amount of time under threat of violence.

If you want me to say that American slavery was worse, it was, it was WAY worse, but holding out that term to describe only one incarnation of this basic behavior is not only inappropriate from a linguistic standpoint, it is also dangerous as it prevents us from recognizing the very real plight of people who are being exploited and dehumanized in such a brutal manner as the Magdeline Laundry, or the chocolate industry, or the sex trade.

Anyway, I don't think it's inappropriate. Clearly you disagree, so feel free to think I'm wrong/racist. I really don't give a crap what either of you think.

[Miss Absynthe]

You know, listing logical fallacies doesn't do anything to address the points made and is bit of a trollish move - I know, because it's one of my personal favourites.

You could choose to discuss this without blocking your ears and yelling "LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU" even if someone doesn't put across the point that they are making to your standards.

[Solumina]

Desp why are you posting this as if it were new information? This is something that Saya brought up a couple of years ago in a thread where not only were you an active participant but you directly commented on her post. Were you really able to just forget about something this horrible?

[Despanan]

I'm sorry, I thought you could figure that out on your own.

Well hang on while I go get a few costumes so you'll care about it.

This is reducto ad absurdum because it fallaciously makes the claim that I don't care about what I don't see on stage.

Or tie it in to religious persecution somehow so you can attach your atheist agenda to it...

This is a straw-man because my argument was not based upon my "atheist agenda" I simply admitted that my anti-theism is one of the reasons I found this particular issue more poignant at this time.

and feel like you're part of an oppressed class.

This is just a straight ad hominem as it supposes something negative about my motivation and implies that previous argument is incorrect.

all in all, it's a big old logicfail on Saya's part. You may simply list logical fallacies with no rhyme or reason miss absinth, but I do not.

Got it now?

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Solumina

Desp why are you posting this as if it were new information? This is something that Saya brought up a couple of years ago in a thread where not only were you an active participant but you directly commented on her post. Were you really able to just forget about something this horrible?

I'm sorry can you link the thread? I may have indeed forgotten about it as I don't remember that thread at all.

[Solumina]

Here is the thread, the asylums are mentioned on the second page.


I kind of assumed at the time that the reason why nobody really reacted to it was because it wasn't new information but looking back I guess most of the people were too concerned with Sternn being an asshat to care about those women.

[Miss Absynthe]

Originally Posted by Despanan

Sadly, Godwin's law exists for a reason dude. There is no comparison between me getting my ass kicked by the NYPD and genocide. There is a comparison between multiple separate groups of people being unjustly forced to do hard labor against their will for an indefinite amount of time under threat of violence.

US slavery was an attempt at genocide. It was levelled at entire races of people. To equate it with 'a group of people being unjustly forced to do hard labor against their will for an indefinite amount of time under threat of violence' trivialises the truth of the matter.

[Miss Absynthe]

Originally Posted by Despanan

...all in all, it's a big old logicfail on Saya's part. You may simply list logical fallacies with no rhyme or reason miss absinth, but I do not.

Got it now?

I wasn't saying that you were incorrectly deciding that things were logical fallacy. I was saying that you were being a dick about pointing it out instead of looking at the points Saya was making and trying to have a constructive conversation.

But hey.. if you want to be a dick.

[Despanan]

Looking back, It was only a passing mention as part of a larger conversation, that centered around a different OP and Sterrn being an asshat. I don't think it's so much that people didn't care about those women, as the context it was presented in.

If it had been it's own thread (Which really, it should have been) or someone had gone "wait a minute, WHAT?!" and the conversation had turned to the asylums I probably would have remembered, but it's really no surprise I forgot about that.

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Miss Absynthe

US slavery was an attempt at genocide. It was levelled at entire races of people. To equate it with 'a group of people being unjustly forced to do hard labor against their will for an indefinite amount of time under threat of violence' trivialises the truth of the matter.

No it wasn't. Genocide is an attempt at the specific extermination of an entire race of people. US slavery didn't want all blacks in America dead it wanted them to continue as a free source of labor.

You could say that Christopher Columbus committed genocide VIA slavery, as his actions actually resulted in wiping an entire race of people off the map.

I wasn't saying that you were incorrectly deciding that things were logical fallacy. I was saying that you were being a dick about pointing it out instead of looking at the points Saya was making and trying to have a constructive conversation.

Saya's points WERE the logical fallacies, and therefore they were all irrelevant.

Wait, why am I talking to you? Clearly you're a fucking idiot.

[Miss Absynthe]

Originally Posted by Despanan

No it wasn't. Genocide is an attempt at the specific extermination of an entire race of people. US slavery didn't want all blacks in America dead it wanted them to continue as a free source of labor.

You could say that Christopher Columbus committed genocide VIA slavery, as his actions actually resulted in wiping an entire race of people off the map.



Saya's points WERE the logical fallacies, and therefore they were all irrelevant.

Wait, why am I talking to you? Clearly you're a fucking idiot.

A point that is argued by use of a logical fallacy isn't necessarily a moot point.. it can be the truth argued in a poor way. Someone who is interested in having a meaningful discussion instead of just ramming their own views down another's throat might choose to look at the merit of the point that was trying to be made instead of dismissing it entirely.

[Despanan]

If Saya had a point in any of that (and she doesn't) it's her responsibility to submit a new argument that isn't illogical, not mine to provide her arguments for her.

Your assertion that someone interested in a real argument might engage in the sort of behavior you suggest is useless vapid and fallacious and I'm going to start ignoring you now because of it.

[Jonathan]

You've got to be fucking kidding me.

[Miss Absynthe]

Originally Posted by Despanan

If Saya had a point in any of that (and she doesn't) it's her responsibility to submit a new argument that isn't illogical, not mine to provide her arguments for her.

Your assertion that someone interested in a real argument might engage in the sort of behavior you suggest is useless vapid and fallacious and I'm going to start ignoring you now because of it.

I said meaningful discussion, not real argument.

[Solumina]

Originally Posted by Despanan

Looking back, It was only a passing mention as part of a larger conversation, that centered around a different OP and Sterrn being an asshat. I don't think it's so much that people didn't care about those women, as the context it was presented in.

If it had been it's own thread (Which really, it should have been) or someone had gone "wait a minute, WHAT?!" and the conversation had turned to the asylums I probably would have remembered, but it's really no surprise I forgot about that.

Why should anyone have made a thread? It's not like it was new information and when compared to what women go through in other parts of the world it isn't even surprising. Also do you always shrug off learning of human rights violations if it isn't presented in just the right way? Or just the ones that you could never see happening to you?

Oh and if it was something you had just then found out about why didn't you go wait a minute, WHAT?

[Alan]

Originally Posted by Miss Absynthe

US slavery was an attempt at genocide. It was levelled at entire races of people. To equate it with 'a group of people being unjustly forced to do hard labor against their will for an indefinite amount of time under threat of violence' trivialises the truth of the matter.

THAT is the real chauvinistic and ignorant position here.
Thinking that only THE American form of slavery is worthy of the name slavery. Come off it!

[Miss Absynthe]

Chauvinistic?

And I didn't say that the US form of slavery was the only form worthy of the word.

[Alan]

So Despanan talks about slavery, and you contest him by specifically talking about US slavery even though he didn't, and now you claim that you didn't say US slavery was the only form of slavery that matters?

You're either backpedaling or you do not realize the brazen ignorance in your previous words.