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Politics "Under democracy, one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule -and both commonly succeed, and are right." -H.L. Menken

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Old 04-10-2008, 06:43 PM   #1
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Che Guevara

I've been reading most of his works and I say, I do like them. Has anyone else read anything by him? If so, what did you think?
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Old 04-10-2008, 06:56 PM   #2
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Che and Castro followed the Marxist-Leninist-Trotskyist path of Marxism, but they place too much emphasis on Lenin for my taste.
Other than that, I do see Che and Castro as romantic icons of the 20th century. With all the fame Che has, I don't believe he's overrated; I only believe that people are too fucking idiotic to recognize something for its merits rather than its popularity. If Che was remembered for his ideals and actions, I believe he should be just as famous, and Castro should be just as iconic and loved as Guevara.
They showed the world that change can come out of a radical and swift overthrow of the current system. It was thanks to them that guerillas, both military and artistic, are considered effective.
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Old 04-10-2008, 06:59 PM   #3
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[quote] Che and Castro followed the Marxist-Leninist-Trotskyist path of Marxism, but they place too much emphasis on Lenin for my taste. [quote]

I agree with you Jillian 100%. Lenin is great and all, but too much is too much. I love his works, and I'm glad, you at least know about him, most people I ask have no idea who he is.
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Old 04-10-2008, 07:47 PM   #4
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Too much Lenin? blasphemy!!
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Old 04-10-2008, 07:51 PM   #5
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Come on, even if Lenin had some nice intentions, he still thought too much of himself and his type. The idea of a vanguard party is terrible.
Now, Che's approach I can respect. His idea of a vanguard party was one of starters of the revolution, not of leaders of it.
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Old 04-10-2008, 08:00 PM   #6
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*insert picture of his visage on a bikini/CD case/other commodity as a marketing tool rather than a crucial historical figure*
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Old 04-11-2008, 02:41 AM   #7
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Motorcycle Diaries is one of my favorite books.
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Old 04-11-2008, 06:11 PM   #8
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Me too Sternn. I'm a big fan of Guerrilla Warfare. It is my favorite book by him. I like his ideas very much.
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Old 04-12-2008, 05:21 PM   #9
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What about the millions of people who've died under these movements? Most of those changes in the end really didn't help any of those people. They just exchanged one horrible govt for another. Sure sounds romantic, not if you're one of those sent to a work camp or re-education camp.. or a mass grave.
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Old 04-12-2008, 05:46 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtificialOne
What about the millions of people who've died under these movements?
Give me an example of a Leninist-Trotskyist that has killed and oppressed more people than the United States.
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People who say they don’t care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don’t care what people think.
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Old 04-12-2008, 05:54 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian
Give me an example of a Leninist-Trotskyist that has killed and oppressed more people than the United States.
Should we praise people who killed millions in order to erect a shitty government just because others have killed more? Besides Jillian, it's a little silly to compare the impact of individuals and isolated movements with that of a 200 year old superpower.
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Old 04-12-2008, 05:58 PM   #12
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I really don't remember the Cuban Revolution having killed millions; but then I could be wrong.
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Old 04-12-2008, 06:14 PM   #13
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I really don't remember the Cuban Revolution having killed millions; but then I could be wrong.
Heh, yes. Okay, I should have said thousands to conform with the standard estimate, but my main point still stands.
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Old 04-12-2008, 06:22 PM   #14
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Batista's regime faced a lot of civil unrest, while Castro's and Che's guerrillas were supported by the people. Meanwhile Castro's regime is the one seen as evil due to anti-communist propaganda.
The government improved; the majority was content (i.e. democracy), and the death count was low for a revolution.
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Quote:
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People who say they don’t care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don’t care what people think.
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Old 04-12-2008, 06:34 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian
Batista's regime faced a lot of civil unrest, while Castro's and Che's guerrillas were supported by the people. Meanwhile Castro's regime is the one seen as evil due to anti-communist propaganda.
The government improved; the majority was content (i.e. democracy), and the death count was low for a revolution.
That impression might be the result of the post-revolutionary regime's use of any means necessary, including execution without due process of law, to silence dissent against the new government, or Castro's early insistence that he was fighting to restore the democratic government rather than instate communism.
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Old 04-12-2008, 06:42 PM   #16
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I'm not even a communist, but I respect Trotskyists; they produce some of the most egalitarian statist societies.
Anyone that links Stalin and Mao with people lie Trotsky and Castro, doesn't know his communist theory. It is just as logical and justifiable to link Mussolini and Francisco Franco with FDR and most capitalists in the "free world" for their faith in corporatism.
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Old 04-13-2008, 02:21 AM   #17
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Jillian -

Trying to explain Troyskyists, Leninism, and Marxism to Americans is damn near impossible due to the bias teachings they have there. Same goes for the history of Che, Castro, and Cuba.

Most Americans have no idea how life was, is, and the effect the revolution had on the people.

They all have a cultural bias that is constantly supported by US government propaganda.

The best way to explain it is like this -

Communism isn't bad - its good. Now, stalin was a real bastard and many people link his rule to communism, which is where most of the negative stuff comes from.

But stalin was to communism what bush has been to democracy. His politics had little to do with the form of government and everything to do with the mass repeal of civil rights.

Even though stalin followed Lenin, they had little similarities in their style of governing.

Americans are taught the evils of communism through examples of stalinism, which as we know is like night and day.

But try telling that to someone who was raised from birth being told that all communists are 'evil'.
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Old 04-13-2008, 02:31 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian
Give me an example of a Leninist-Trotskyist that has killed and oppressed more people than the United States.

No, Jillian, on this I disagree. Always choosing a lesser evil is a cop out. It's giving up and ignoring better standards.
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Old 04-13-2008, 09:49 AM   #19
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Quote:
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Communism isn't bad - its good. Now, stalin was a real bastard and many people link his rule to communism, which is where most of the negative stuff comes from.

But stalin was to communism what bush has been to democracy. His politics had little to do with the form of government and everything to do with the mass repeal of civil rights.

Even though stalin followed Lenin, they had little similarities in their style of governing.

Americans are taught the evils of communism through examples of stalinism, which as we know is like night and day.

But try telling that to someone who was raised from birth being told that all communists are 'evil'.
Sternn, once again, I feel you fail to give Americans enough credit. Most educated citizens of the United States are able to dissociate communist ideologies from those who espoused them, and make deliberations on both independently of one another. Although I'm not the biggest communism fan, I don't condemn Che for his political beliefs, but rather for the extreme, inexcusable methods he implemented in prosecuting them. I do admire Guevera's revolutionary spirit as much as the next guy, but in this regard there are heroes far worthier of our respect.
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Old 04-13-2008, 11:33 AM   #20
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I'm a big fan of Guerrilla Warfare.
... What the shit?
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Old 04-13-2008, 01:25 PM   #21
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The book JCC, the book.
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Old 04-13-2008, 01:31 PM   #22
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The book JCC, the book.
Oh... I still have my suspicions.
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Old 04-15-2008, 07:32 AM   #23
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Based on what I know, I'm of the mind that communism doesn't really work because we're hard-wired to be greedy and lazy.

I like the idea of getting the basics, but being able to sell what you make over your quota. That might work a bit better. People would be more motivated to work to produce/do more than their quota.

Then again, maybe I'm just being naive/uninformed.
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Old 04-15-2008, 06:12 PM   #24
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I'm of the mind that communism doesn't really work because we're hard-wired to be greedy and lazy.
Somalia, Catalonia, Chiapas, Fin de Siecle Paris, Eugene, the Diggers both new and old, prove this opinion of humankind is wrong.
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Old 04-15-2008, 06:38 PM   #25
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I am by no means a communist, far from it, I just like what Che writes.
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