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Old 01-04-2013, 03:01 AM   #26
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That being said, though; a lot of women could do that. But will most be able to? And if not, how can we know who can? I wonder if a physical fitness test before going through basic training could determine that? And is it still discrimation to require that from women, but not men? Is it financially sound or realistic to make it a requirement for both?
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Old 01-04-2013, 03:15 AM   #27
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I thought that there were physical fitness tests that needed to be passed before going through training.

I'm not certain, but I'm fairly sure that they have them here... I actually tried to get into ADFA after high school but didn't get past the psych tests (apparently I have issues with authority? And they didn't seen the humour when I demanded that they reissue the test because I absolutely DO NOT have issues with authority, I'll have you know thank you very much...)

I know that there are physical fitness tests to join the paramedics here, and if you train up as a rescue paramedic you need to pass the test each year.

Honestly, if it were up to me.. I would want both men and women to pass a fitness test - maybe not having to hit the standard that you'd expect someone who is in the armed forces to have, but at least be showing the potential to reach that standard with training.

Then again.. I come from a country that isn't really clambering to find defence personnel so I think that we have the room to be a little more picky here.

WRT the time for triage - I can't imagine trying to triage that sort of shit in those conditions.. it's hard enough in a fully stocked ED. Your medics are unbelievably talented..
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Old 01-04-2013, 03:57 AM   #28
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Well, how it is here, a fitness test isn't required to join. My assessment was just pencil-whipped, to be honest. There's a medical evaluation and all that, but not an actually test until the end of basic, which has reduced standards, and then another at the end of/during the job specific training which is the army standard. The way we kind of evaluate someone beyond their test in an unofficial capacity is see how they do during group physical training every morning. Like, a guy we got could pass his test, but he was still weak sauce every morning and during training events. So yeah. Behind a desk.

WRT your ED, I don't really know what you do, but I would bet it's a lot more. Our medics aren't doctors and we have even less training so we kind of don't worry about non-critical shit. But yeah, they're amazing. That was a true story. You know what's stupid, though? Their training and avanced education don't mean jack shit as far as civilian qualifications.
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Old 01-04-2013, 04:22 AM   #29
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Oh, speaking of that story;

This thread from a couple months back deals with mass murders who MUST have had MI. It's really interesting to see everybody's reaction to it, especially Jonathan's.

https://www.gothic.net/boards/showthread.php?t=26084
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Old 01-04-2013, 07:06 AM   #30
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Wow.

I just don't understand why people can't accept that someone can be a perpetrator of something awful AND a victim at the same time? I mean, when I think of the victims of the shooting at the school in CT, I count Lanza among the victims of what happened.

My cats show less self-involvement and more compassion to other creatures than some of the humans I know - and I'm SO not talking about humans who perpetrate crime.. I'm talking about those who perpetrate micro-aggressions against others with their discrimination and hatred. You fuckers make me want to QQ life.
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Old 01-04-2013, 09:30 AM   #31
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Oh, speaking of that story;

This thread from a couple months back deals with mass murders who MUST have had MI. It's really interesting to see everybody's reaction to it, especially Jonathan's.

https://www.gothic.net/boards/showthread.php?t=26084
Is that the one where a guy who had a traumatic brain injury went off base and killed a bunch of people?
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Old 01-04-2013, 09:52 AM   #32
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Question for Versus RE: the sexism/vs. biological differences problem.

I kinda hold that it's possible to treat people equally, without treating them exactly the same - as there is a distinct difference between equality and sameness.

You've listed a number of ways women are generally different from men and the ways in which these differences can be seen as liabilities in combat.

What I'm curious of, is are there any incidences where female differences might be positive in combat: for instance, you mentioned that they tend to, on average, be smaller and less bulky than men. Wouldn't there be instances during combat where it would be preferable to be smaller? For instance, women might present a smaller target in a firefight, and as I would assume that a bullet shot by a woman is just as deadly as one shot by a man, it might be considered an asset.

I mention this because in my experience as a hiker, women are better long-distance hikers than men. Their extra fat stores allow them to regenerate muscle, where men become emaciated and their bodies start to devour themselves after a few thousand miles. Similarly, women on average have a higher pain tolerance than men, and have a lower center of gravity, so while they generally are smaller and can't carry as much weight as a man, their advantages more than make up for their disadvantages and they actually outperform us in the long run.

I dunno, combat is different and you know way more about this than me, but it would seem to me that different physical standards for combat men and women could easily be justified, because while men might outperform them in some categories, I would assume the inverse should also be true.

If this is the case, then wouldn't it actually make a sexually integrated combat unit stronger overall, as a unit composed of men and women could respond to different situations in a diversified manner?
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Old 01-04-2013, 02:21 PM   #33
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Quote:
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Question for Versus RE: the sexism/vs. biological differences problem.

I kinda hold that it's possible to treat people equally, without treating them exactly the same - as there is a distinct difference between equality and sameness.

You've listed a number of ways women are generally different from men and the ways in which these differences can be seen as liabilities in combat.

What I'm curious of, is are there any incidences where female differences might be positive in combat: for instance, you mentioned that they tend to, on average, be smaller and less bulky than men. Wouldn't there be instances during combat where it would be preferable to be smaller? For instance, women might present a smaller target in a firefight, and as I would assume that a bullet shot by a woman is just as deadly as one shot by a man, it might be considered an asset.

I mention this because in my experience as a hiker, women are better long-distance hikers than men. Their extra fat stores allow them to regenerate muscle, where men become emaciated and their bodies start to devour themselves after a few thousand miles. Similarly, women on average have a higher pain tolerance than men, and have a lower center of gravity, so while they generally are smaller and can't carry as much weight as a man, their advantages more than make up for their disadvantages and they actually outperform us in the long run.

I dunno, combat is different and you know way more about this than me, but it would seem to me that different physical standards for combat men and women could easily be justified, because while men might outperform them in some categories, I would assume the inverse should also be true.

If this is the case, then wouldn't it actually make a sexually integrated combat unit stronger overall, as a unit composed of men and women could respond to different situations in a diversified manner?
Women do have physical advantages.

Because of their smaller size, and consequently shorter distance in their circulatory system, a woman has an advantage in fast-moving fixed wing aircraft. Air superiority dog fights require a lot of high-g manuevering where the effects of gravity on the body are magnified several times. Even with weighted flight suits, under such pressure, a person's blood tends to pool in one part of the body because it can't flow freely. They suffer oxygen deprivation and black out. A woman has an advantage in that it takes less time for blood to be pumped through her body and to her head. She's just smaller. Obviously, dog fights don't require a whole lot of physical exertion, so they retain this advantage and mitigate their weakness.

Women are also more flexible. They're less likely to sustain injuries from tearing muscles and such. There's probably more, but I can't remember much else. I just work here.

I didn't mention this because it's not really relevant. Women are already allowed to be fighter pilots and astronaughts. But typical combat that the jobs they are restricted to is different.

For guys on the ground, the emphasis is on lower body strength and endurance. It's not about lasting it in the long run, it's about making it in the next few seconds. Burst speed, you know? Run as fast and hard as you possibly can with usually 1/3 to 1/2 of your body weight in bullshit that you're carrying.

Guys in armor and artillery are going to need a lot of upper body strength and endurance for the reasons I already described to MissAbsynthe. It's just one of those things where slowing down and getting tired early does matter, even if only marginally. Armor piercing tank rounds travel stupid fast because they penetrate with only kinetic energy and no explosives at all. The differences between 6 seconds and 8 seconds can literally be life and death, you know?
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Old 01-04-2013, 07:47 PM   #34
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Is that the one where a guy who had a traumatic brain injury went off base and killed a bunch of people?
Robert Bales doesn't have TBI. As if it would matter if he did.
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Old 01-04-2013, 10:45 PM   #35
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"Mass murder is just about as rare in people with brain damage as in people without brain damage.

Note that I said "just about." In fact, organic brain damage can be a cause of mass violence. Probably the most classic example of this in American history was the case of Charles Whitman, who went on a shooting spree from atop the University of Texas tower that resulted in the death of 16 people. Although he was under multiple stressors at the time of the incident, he was found to have a brain tumor in the "rage area" of his brain (i.e. the amygdala) upon autopsy.

In the case of Bales, if he is guilty of the massacre, his actions may eventually be found to be related to a clearly causative organic factor. But my clinical experience tells me not to bet on this. It happens, but pretty rarely.

When people behave in unexpected ways for no good reason, it often turns out that when the full story of their lives is understood, the behavior no longer appears as unexpected. That which is neither clearly linked to either a medical or psychiatric illness is very likely intertwined in a person's longstanding personality.

So, I suspect that if 100 psychiatrists were told that a previously normal service person massacred 16 civilians and was neither medically impaired nor psychotic, the majority of them would immediately suspect that the person in question might not have been as normal across his life as initial reports suggested."

Dr (bah what does he know) Charles Raison
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Old 01-05-2013, 02:54 AM   #36
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Old 01-05-2013, 11:29 AM   #37
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No one here has said that.
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Old 01-05-2013, 04:37 PM   #38
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Old 01-05-2013, 05:32 PM   #39
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Old 01-05-2013, 05:34 PM   #40
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Old 01-05-2013, 06:39 PM   #41
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No one here has said that.
Is there something wrong with your computer?

Because you seem to be reading a totally different thread to everyone else.

Let me help...
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Old 01-05-2013, 08:23 PM   #42
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Is there something wrong with your computer?

Because you seem to be reading a totally different thread to everyone else.

Let me help...
There's no reference to race in this thread prior to Saya's contribution, which I can only assume is a response to my quote from good doctor Charles Raison.



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Old 01-07-2013, 02:09 PM   #43
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Old 01-26-2013, 01:32 AM   #44
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Yesterday, the Secretary of Defense announced that the restriction of women in combat roles will be lifted.

I'm sure I won't see any before I get out, which is too bad because I'd really like to see that first hand.
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Old 01-26-2013, 05:41 AM   #45
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Feminist Peace Network had an interesting article: http://www.feministpeacenetwork.org/...one-else-well/

They point out that proportionately there are more women of colour in the military than men of colour, in fact almost half of women in the military are WoC. More women than men said one of their reasons for joining was jobs were hard to find.
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