Atheism and sharing the bridge to the future

[Alan]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

Also note:

Mexico legalized gay marriage across the board. The USA is still fighting with proposition 8s. Really?

Not exactly. They have to go all the way to the capital to marry, but afterward every state must recognize the union.

[HumanePain]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

Also note:

Mexico legalized gay marriage across the board. The USA is still fighting with proposition 8s. Really?

This is the kind of religious "push back" that I am worried will happen on the atheists front. Gay marriage is a tougher sell (to believers). There isn't any way really to recruit support from them on that topic. But yeah, gays came into the open demanding equal rights, and so the religious became confrontational.
This is what happens when believers don't use the bible as a guide to living but instead make it the be-all unified field theory of the universe.

Damn, its like herding cats. (sigh)

[HumanePain]

Originally Posted by Despanan

Okay, lets assume you're right. How does one go about doing this? How can we "allow" someone to voice (and vote by) a worldview which is inherently in conflict with our own?

By tolerance.

Originally Posted by Despanan

I mean, if I put a simple disspasionate bumpersticker in my car which read simply "GOD IS NOT REAL" how many people would I offend?

A few no doubt, but at least in California you could have that sticker and not get more than maybe a double-take. I don't think anyone would run you off the road and pull you out of the car and beat you up for it. We are making some progress into the future.

Originally Posted by Despanan

So how can this be Done HP? you tell me because I don't see it.

That is what I am trying to do with the dissection of this topic.

Scientists not only document what works, they also record what doesn't work.

Thomas Edison documented which materials did not make successful light bulb filaments.

To design a bridge to the future we need to learn what will not work to perhaps find what does. What will not work is trying to move into the future in isolation. (My point.)

So yeah, I don't know exactly how...yet. But I know what won't and if atheists can avoid pouring gas on the fire, then maybe we will find water to pour on it. Or at least allow the fire to eventually burn itself out. God I wish I could express myself one page without metaphors!

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by HumanePain

By tolerance.

But what do you mean by tolerance? I mean we already tolerate Christians. I have Christian friends, I tolerate your Christianity. I tolerate my Christian relatives at holidays. I even attend church if they want me to on special occasions.

So I don't see why you're bringing up tolerance...unless of course by tolerance you mean that I don't talk about my objections to the bible and to Christianity in general, that I don't voice my problems with the divinity of Jesus Christ in the proper social context (For instance, the various atheist threads we've posted on here), or that I say something like: "You have your beliefs and I have my beliefs and they're both equally valid"?

Is that what you mean by tolerance?

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by HumanePain

This is the kind of religious "push back" that I am worried will happen on the atheists front. Gay marriage is a tougher sell (to believers). There isn't any way really to recruit support from them on that topic. But yeah, gays came into the open demanding equal rights, and so the religious became confrontational.
This is what happens when believers don't use the bible as a guide to living but instead make it the be-all unified field theory of the universe.

Damn, its like herding cats. (sigh)

And I invite them to. Humane, I don't quite get you sometimes. You have this capacity to pardon differences, yet the book you follow INSISTS that those that aren't Christian are GOING TO FACE JUSTICE.

Atheism, as an idea IS a threat to their beliefs and I respect them for pushing back so god damned hard. They NEED to. At least they UNDERSTAND that to pardon ME, to allow ME to exercise my world view, they have taken credence from their own, REMOVING the legitimacy of their stance. No offense, but I RESPECT their struggle against the atheist agenda more than your tolerance. It's because I hold Christians to the normative Christian view. I extend at least THAT much respect to my intellectual adversaries. Your book PLAINLY states John 14:6 Jesus is the way the truth and the life and NO ONE can come to the father except through him. YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT THOSE THAT PUSH BACK THIS HARD ARE NOT IGNORING THAT VERY FUNDAMENTAL CORNER STONE OF YOUR FAITH. I'm not even religious and I find Christians that ignore this to be absolutely offensive. Rev 13:15 - 13:16 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other. So because you are luke warm, neither cold not hot, I will spew you out of my mouth.

I didn't say these things. Atheists never said this stuff. It was the CHRISTIANS that said this. It was the Christians that drew the lines in the sand. Now you mean to tell me that you have the fucking grapes to amend these VERY tenants in your religion? You mean to tell me that in the face of your religion you can say that THESE PARTS ARE NOT IMPORTANT? Then you tell me what part is important?

Thing is, the fault will NEVER be on the non belief side. We make no positive claim about the existence of a DIVINE POLICE MAN. I'm not angry at them. I EXPECT them to struggle against me.

You tell me, H_P. Where does it end? Where can it all be reconciled?

[ape descendant]

Erm, I want to know why a bill board that says. "Don't believe in God? You're not alone." is offensive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVsXfnxynv8

[Catch]

As an athiest for several years, I believe the problem is religions have gotten too far from seeing the world as it is. There are so many abnormal ways of looking at things. If heaven is so great why not die now? Not too mention all the people trying to find "slaves." It is ridiculous. There is nothing about Kane's descendents being slaves in the Bible. Not too mention, who are Kane's descendents. It almost seems like whomever is not willing to acknowledge these people are a bunch of a-holes are the slaves.

That is another problem too. The Catholic Church resisted translating the Bible into some languages like English, because they knew it would start cults. The wording is lacking and people already believing as they do are not picking out the nuance because they already believe they know it all.

Did you know the entire diety of Lucifer is based on a translation of a translation; wherein, a phrase around "the rising sun" became latin for lumination, which we now know as Lucifer.

The common Bible is way messed up.

Considering how many people know what religion is promoting is wrong, everyone should be an athiest. I was for an amazingly long time because Gods, Angles, Demons or whatever Wrong is Wrong.

[Despanan]

I would actually like a response. I want to know what HP means by tolerance.

[KontanKarite]

You know you wont get one.

I think he means that we shouldn't talk about it. That we should all agree to let bygones be bygones and not challenge each others' personal beliefs.

Somehow, people think that this is the most reasonable approach. But man it just PARDONS bad ideas.

[Catch]

Yah, that's fairly true. I mean everyone should be able to learn from others... but shouldn't there be some guidelines with it?

[ape descendant]

.... if no one ever brought religion up publicly or to me in private... I wouldn't discuss it often.

However, too many times, it is brought up and the religious person who brought it up ends up getting butt-hurt because they were pwned in ways they'll probably never understand, in a fair and logical discussion.

[Gloomy Sunday]

Eh. I'm Pagan.

I say just get rid of the Christians and be done with it.

[ape descendant]

... wow, erm.. so what makes Pagans better than Christians? By better, I mean why its ok to do away with one and not the other.

[Gloomy Sunday]

Well, most of the Christians.

They're he reason this country isgoing downhill. They're the rason there's no gay marriage. They are trying to stop abortion. They've got tons of othr screwed up ideas, too. They think anybody who isn't Christian is a Satanist.

It's mainly the Fundamentalists (I can't spell that, :P). but theres fundies in every religion. Most Christians are fundies..

[Saya]

I absolutely encourage everyone to discuss it, and I think thats the only to maybe move above "tolerance" and into "acceptance."

But I do think that Christianity has to prove itself to others, the onus isn't on the secularists to just not attack, as long you're acting like a dickhead you're going to get called on it.

Like, recently a coalition of churches got together to call out Stephen Harper for his prison and sentencing reforms (minimum sentences on non-violent crimes, as in if you get caught with a joint, there's a minimum jail time instead of just a fine or whatever). Everyone was as pleased as punch, its nice to see churches not being dickheads and following Conservatives just because Harper is a evangelical and they say they value tradition or whatever. Seems down south the fanaticals will just fight and fight and only abandon something when they absolutely have to (like fighting divorce laws, remember when that was a big thing?)

[ape descendant]

I've met Pagan fundies who rival, in both duchebaggery and willful ignorance, Christian fundamentalists. They are harder to find and don't get as much air time. Sexism, homophobia and a false sense of personal power are a few of the calling cards of said fundies.

There are plenty of Pagans with screwed up ideas... based in the same type of thinking that causes Christians to come off as batty.

Assholes are assholes regardless of religion, if they didn't have a religion as an excuse to be assholes, they'd just be assholes with no excuse.

A fairytale is a fairytale, regardless of the characters.

And, hey, whats wrong with being, or being thought of as a Satanist?

[Gloomy Sunday]

Because, when you're not one it makes you angry when the Christians say you are.

[Saya]

I miss the days when we sacrificed people to Odin.

[ape descendant]

Oh, and don't forget the days of wicker men full of slaves and captives from other tribes in the ol' Celtic countries. And babies for Baal.... Baal loves babies.. nom nom nom...

I could totally understand getting upset over a misidentification, I get mistaken for a Pagan.. a lot... and it never fails to miff me a little.

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Gloomy Sunday

Eh. I'm Pagan.

I say just get rid of the Christians and be done with it.

At least I can respect Christians, paganism is just fucking ridiculous.

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Saya

I absolutely encourage everyone to discuss it, and I think thats the only to maybe move above "tolerance" and into "acceptance."

I don't think that's possible without Christians collectively deciding to amend/ignore their own scriptures.

Jesus taught compassion towards sinners, not tolerance and certainly not acceptance. It is not Christianity's way to tolerate a sinner or a non-believer, that's why the religion is around today: Because by it's very nature it's extroverted and coercive. It is a religion which CONQUERS.

The sentiment: "I'm okay, you're okay, we're all okay, there are many truths and many paths to God" is nice and certainly politically expedient, but it's our modern sensibilities that ascribe that to Christianity, not the religion itself. Yahweh is a war god, Jehova is a jealous god, and thou shalt have no other gods before him. The only alternative to accepting the salvation brought by Jesus's bloody sacrifice is eternal torment, and it's faith IN HIM, not good works which gets one a pass into heaven.

The scripture is very clear on this point: God does not want you to be lukewarm, and neither does Jesus.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Despanan

I don't think that's possible without Christians collectively deciding to amend/ignore their own scriptures.

Jesus taught compassion towards sinners, not tolerance and certainly not acceptance. It is not Christianity's way to tolerate a sinner or a non-believer, that's why the religion is around today: Because by it's very nature it's extroverted and coercive. It is a religion which CONQUERS.

The sentiment: "I'm okay, you're okay, we're all okay, there are many truths and many paths to God" is nice and certainly politically expedient, but it's our modern sensibilities that ascribe that to Christianity, not the religion itself. Yahweh is a war god, Jehova is a jealous god, and thou shalt have no other gods before him. The only alternative is eternal torment, and it's faith, not good works which gets one a pass into heaven.

The scripture is very clear on this point: God does not want you to be lukewarm, and neither does Jesus.

But its never said that Jesus was a dickhead to gentiles at all, nor is there anything saying that he tried furiously to save their souls. He just cured them, brought their kids back from the dead and went on his merry way, he even told the Geresene demoniac not to become a follower.

Regardless, what scripture says and what Christians do are two completely different things. How they interpret scripture is always changing and not something everyone agrees on within the faith, scripture might change and interpretation might change, but if a Christian says "I don't care what other religions believe as long as they are good people", I'm not going to tell them they're still phenomenal assholes and there is no way we can be at peace.

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Saya

But its never said that Jesus was a dickhead to gentiles at all, nor is there anything saying that he tried furiously to save their souls. He just cured them, brought their kids back from the dead and went on his merry way, he even told the Geresene demoniac not to become a follower.

He tells him not to become a disciple, instead he orders him to "Go home and tell his family what God has done for him". Basically he orders the guy to Evangelize his family.

He also forces a bunch of pigs to kill themselves (how does that jive with your veganism?)

But back to him sending the madman home to Witness to his family: who can blame him? If Jesus WAS the son of God, then he damn well better do everything he can to convert as many people as possible. If he told them that they were cool and didn't need his salvation he would've been lying and actively tricking them into hell. That's being far more of a Dickhead than simply "Trying to save them furiously".

In fact, it would be wrong to not try to "save everyone furiously", given the real threat of Hell. So either Jesus just felt that leading by example was the best way to evangelize, or he was a total asshole.

In case a) he does not really preach tolerance, he just behaves in a cool manner because he feels this is the best approach.

In case b) he's an asshole and a liar.

Regardless, what scripture says and what Christians do are two completely different things. How they interpret scripture is always changing and not something everyone agrees on within the faith, scripture might change and interpretation might change

I agree, but Christianity does not change. God and Jesus are both divine, therefore perfect, and therefore they do not change either. The Bible is also the word of God, and thus it is implied that it also can and should never change:

2 Timothy 3:16 (New International Version)

16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

In this modern age, Christianity is not a religion that makes people better. At best it gives them an excuse to be good, a magic feather (if you will), to bring out the goodness that was already inside them and then takes credit for it, or scares sociopaths into compliance with threats of supernatural violence.

if a Christian says "I don't care what other religions believe as long as they are good people", I'm not going to tell them they're still phenomenal assholes and there is no way we can be at peace.

They aren't phenomenal assholes, what they're doing is very natural and good they are allowing their modern sensibilities, ethics and morals to override the barbaric, violent approach to life that their book demands. They are being good people IN SPITE of what the book they claim to follow, and it's divine prophet have said.

There are plenty of ways a believer and I can be at peace, but that doesn't mean that our beliefs won't be in conflict. You can still be friends with people who aren't like you and hold beliefs that are different from yours Saya.

If anything, basing the idea of friendship and peace solely (or even highly) on similarities of opinion is silly and dangerous.

[Saya]

And everyone was afraid and asked Jesus to leave, so he did, pretty peacefully, the Geresene demoniac could just attribute his sanity to God now. And Timothy was written by Paul, yes?

But that's just really different ways to think about the Bible, and not what we're discussing, what we are discussing is how can we be friends?

Its fine to argue about this stuff as we do, I would argue, its just when we get "its all or nothing" attitude that there's a problem. But like I said, its the Christians who have to shape up.

[Despanan]

Oh, also Saya: He WAS a dick to Gentiles, at least on this occasion:

Mark 7:24-29

Jesus left that place and went to the vicinity of Tyre. He entered a house and did not want anyone to know it; yet he could not keep his presence secret.

In fact, as soon as she heard about him, a woman whose little daughter was possessed by an evil spirit came and fell at his feet.

The woman was a Greek, born in Syrian Phoenicia. She begged Jesus to drive the demon out of her daughter.

"First let the children eat all they want," he told her, "for it is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."

"Yes, Lord," she replied, "but even the dogs under the table eat the children's crumbs."

Then he told her, "For such a reply, you may go; the demon has left your daughter."

Christians rationalize this by saying "He was just testing her" but it seems a pretty douchy thing to say to me. I mean, he basically made her admit that her people were "dogs" to the Jew's "Children" before he'd heal her poor daughter. Guy didn't even bother to correct her afterwards, just sent her on her merry way thinking she'd received his "crumbs".