Yet another shooting

[LadyLucretia]

Originally Posted by HumanePain

The serious, PREVENTABLE contributor to the problem is the failure of his parents to lock up their guns. Sure, the kids psycho nature was the primary problem, but his problem would not have had physical consequences to others had guns been secured where he could not access them.

What about illegal gun sales? If he was determined to get a gun, he presumably could have bought one on the street. Don't get me wrong, responsible gun ownership is very important, particularly when someone sharing a household with a gun owner is mentally ill. But it seems the real failing is that his cries for attention/help were not addressed. I read one article that said that students had reported him as a threat to the principal but that they "hadn't been able to find time" to meet to discuss it. It's one thing when these kids quietly simmer and then explode, but when there are clear warning signs that get ignored it's really ridiculous.

[CptSternn]

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html

9 Out of the last almost 70 school shootings have been outside of America.

Sure, it does happen elsewhere, but not on the level it happens in America.

Children imitate what they see. They don't directly copy what they see - I mean if you let them watch cartoons your not going to find them at the bottom of a gorge with springs tied on their feet and an umbrella in their hands.

You will however see children mimic what they see in terms of rationalisation. They also mimic behaviour as they watch the actions of more promanate members of their culture or society and see how they act in public and how the public reacts.

To say that children are by no means effected by the behaviour of those who are in power in their country is silly.

Parents teach their children, as do the schools, the importance of government, officials, and men in uniforms. They watch closely how these figures interact with society - on a conscious and also sub-conscious level.

Children imitate what they see.

To assume that children aren't learning to 'go it alone' and that 'might makes right' when being raised in a country that calls everyone who disagrees a supporter of terrorists, and makes you feel like your doing something wrong if your not wearing a pin or waving a flag seems a bit short sighted.

Children are watching, and they are developing based on what they see around them, including the behaviour of the leaders of their country.

[delicti]

Woo-hoo! Did Capt'n Communism just make the same argument that censorship advocates and other neo-cons make? Let's take a look...

Sen. Orrin Hatch (R):

[We can] stem the influence of cultural violence by doing more to limit the exposure of children to violence. ...we should limit our young people’s exposure to it.
http://www.ontheissues.org/Social/Or...+_Children.htm

The good Capt'n:

You will however see children mimic what they see in terms of rationalisation. They also mimic behaviour as they watch the actions of more promanate members of their culture or society and see how they act in public and how the public reacts.


Oh wait, but there's more!

Rev. Pat Robertson (of the Christian Coalition):

Popular television is flooded with filth and violence; MTV, VH-1, and pop radio stations are sewers of obscenity, rebellion and violence; pop magazines promote the vilest forms of pornography and a form of materialism, selfishness, and greed that has fallen to the lowest levels in human history.
http://blogcritics.org/archives/2005/08/25/024237.php

Pat & Capt'n, makin' it happen:

Children imitate what they see. ... To say that children are by no means effected by the behaviour of those who are in power in their country is silly. ... Children are watching, and they are developing based on what they see around them....



Hey Capt! There was a gun used in this crime, too! Before it's too late; you want to see if you can go two for two and knock another of our basic rights over the bleachers?

You're really just a two-bit, Bushie nut - aren't you?

[CptSternn]

There is some truth to what they say. However, they have taken my basic premise and modified it for their right-wing agenda.

They neglect to mention that Hatch supports torture. They failed to point out Robertson claimed AIDS was brought on gays because God was angry at them, and that he feels all gays deserve to burn in hell.

While movies, music, and other forms of art play a role in child development, they by no means have the same effect on the childs psyche like a strong, male, authoritative figure has.

If it were all just down to movies and music, you would see this sort of thing in every first world country. The UK, Ireland, Australia, Germany, hell - most of Europe all plays the same music, movies, and television shows that they have in America. About 90% of all television, movies, and over half of music comes from America. The rest of the world views, watches, and hears the same media - yet no where else in the world is this sort of thing happening on this level.

It's safe to say their accusations are self serving, especially since they themselves are part of the very problem. Preaching hate, intolerance, torture, and murder - then trying to blame artists. Of course, that is what we have come to expect from such people in the right-wing.

[Renatus]

Interesting thing is I haven't heard much of the incident over here in Wisconsin, all I'm hearing about here is the young cop who went on a shooting spree up in northern Wisconsin, I think it might just overshadow the ohio shooting in the eyes of America.

[ForgetThisLostLenore]

I haven't heard of this until now. But I'm slightly offended, just slightly, by the fact that some people on here have pretty much stated since I'm an American high-school gothic student, I'm going to shoot up my school.

Really now, wouldn't people here, of all the people in the world whose own blind pig-headedness causes them to make broad generalizations, be a bit more open-minded?

Also, the violence on TV is not the cause of violence in schools. Oh my god, why do people always jump to that?!? Maybe violence in schools is caused by the mere fact that the teachers are biased in who they save from bullying? A violent home environment? SEVERE MENTAL CONDITIONS?!?! Yes Bush is a moron, we all know it. But obviously you have not been to America recently, and take your knowledge from biased statistics, but a lot of deep hatred is currently saved for Bush.

I'm done ranting now. Sorry, but some posts in this thread are moronic.

[LadyLucretia]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

The rest of the world views, watches, and hears the same media - yet no where else in the world is this sort of thing happening on this level.

So maybe it's a combination of our mental health system and our shitty education system. I still don't see what it has to do with the current administration (their education "reforms" have nothing to do with bullying).

[NachtSorcier]

It just never ends. I'm interested to know exactly why Columbine started this domino effect of school shootings. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think this ever happened prior to the 1990s.

I have a sudden urge to look up every single bad thing about Ireland and whine about it constantly.

[Clockwork]

Bugger, I couldn't give a damn if the kid thought he was spooky or not. What irks me is that these brats just keep doing this stupid, violent, half-baked routine over and over in an attempt to show how angry they are. They've effectively turned the action of shooting your fellow classmates into nothing more than stamping your foot on the ground while whining loudly. This is a fucking domino effect, and it sucks.

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by Clockwork

Bugger, I couldn't give a damn if the kid thought he was spooky or not. What irks me is that these brats just keep doing this stupid, violent, half-baked routine over and over in an attempt to show how angry they are. They've effectively turned the action of shooting your fellow classmates into nothing more than stamping your foot on the ground while whining loudly. This is a fucking domino effect, and it sucks.

Well thats it in a nutshell. These kids have found they can get their 15 minutes of fame when they do this. Not only that, they see gun violence as cool, and acceptable.

The American gun culture, which I feel is supported more by the government than the entertainment industry, gives this appearance and supports the thoughts and feelings which lead to such violence.

Also the fact the American culture doesn't have grey areas - just right and wrong. This leads to feelings of isolation which lead to such atrocities as well.

[DarkPrayer]

I don't like goths hurting others. It gives us a bad rap.

[Renatus]

Don't jump to the conclusion that he was even goth. The Columbine killers were accused of being goth yet in reality they were wanna be members of the trenchcoat mafia (a completely separate subculture).

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Well thats it in a nutshell. These kids have found they can get their 15 minutes of fame when they do this. Not only that, they see gun violence as cool, and acceptable.

The American gun culture, which I feel is supported more by the government than the entertainment industry, gives this appearance and supports the thoughts and feelings which lead to such violence.

Also the fact the American culture doesn't have grey areas - just right and wrong. This leads to feelings of isolation which lead to such atrocities as well.

Are you implying that we need more censorship?

I have a better solution. Do away with censorship completely. Let parents decide what's good for their kids and let the schools teach them all about understanding and tolorance.

People may not be capable of loving each other, but god damn, you'd think we can all learn to keep our hate to ourselves.

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

Are you implying that we need more censorship?

Just the opposite. I said media and entertainment give the apperance, they are by no means the cause.

I blame the government. Why you ask? Well...

The entertainment industry is a reflection of society. Rap music doesn't cause gun death, it merely talks about what people see in their everyday lives.

Goth music doesn't make kids depressed or angsty - kids are already depressed and/or angsty - the music merely reflects what they are already feeling.

The same goes for TV, movies, and books - they merely diusplay what the writer has experienced, or what they saw happening around them in their lives.

The causes of such can be laid on the shoulders of government.

Who created the drug laws which in turn create drug cartels along with increases profits that look good to poor kids?

Who setup an education system which discriminates against the poor and inadvertently encourages kids to turn to crime?

Who plasters adverts on television encouraging kids to sign up for military service - with flashy ad campaigns that glorify violence and killing?

Who tells children that carrying a gun is cool and demonstrates power?

Who carries guns in society (legally)? How are those people depicted in the media, and by the government?

What group bans certain types of clothing, tells kids they can't be what they want, forces conformity upon them until they feel like a social outcast?

All of these sorts of things are NOT products of the entertainment industry - they are a product of right-wing laws enacted by a government owned and operated by a small minority of rich white guys.

The effects which come out of this, and the various types of literature, television, and celluloid which then comes out of that can be traced back to the actions of society which are directly influence by the powers that be.

When a leader tells the world he is going to do what he wants, and if anyone has any problems with it, he will use military force, many guns, to silence the opposition - do you not think that attitude, accompanied by the fact guns are put on an almost iconic pedestal in the same society has a direct effect on the children being raising in such an environment?

It's not the entertainment industry that we need to worry about, its the people who put legislation in place in efforts to make kids think gun violence, and other violence is cool. The people that need to be censored are those who preach do what I say or else I use violence...because I can.