Bachmann proves she has no sense; alienates Fox News host

[Alan]

Yeah, no, that's not how it works at all. First of all, if you want more jobs in the US with a globalized world, you're asking right there for the State to intervene in the name of American workers.
Jobs are not tied to industrial production. Jobs in the first world are increasingly affective labor, you know, like the service industry, office jobs, and so on.
Skilled labor is only necessary in pre-industrial capitalism and the occasional industrial trade that still have good unions. That is not the direction capital is going and you can't advocate for both the free market and a past, idealized, and more importantly obsolete, era of said free market. These are all very precarious jobs.

[AshleyO]

Originally Posted by Deadmanwalking_05

And that is part of the problem wouldn't you say?

Which means less jobs in the U.S.

which also means less quality,and skilled labor.

Which hampers growth of said free market.

That also means less money for the average worker.

and also causes companies to jump ship to find a way to avoid paying said skilled local workers.

Save mentioning the abuses the workers in third world countries are subjected to by the companies.

That's not a symptom of regulation. That's a direct result of the free market at play. You need labor in order to make your product, you're going to go where the labor is cheapest. It only makes sense.

[Deadmanwalking_05]

Originally Posted by AshleyO

That's not a symptom of regulation. That's a direct result of the free market at play. You need labor in order to make your product, you're going to go where the labor is cheapest. It only makes sense.

It is when the companies leave to avoid paying the regs.

and in turn the same regs. keep small business from growing to their full potential because the cost is passed onto the smaller businesses.

Which leads to the stagnation we have now.

[Alan]

Yeah, sure, you could call minimum wage a regulation, but you'd have jobs of five dollars a day with a currency of still the same purchasing power of right now.
Believe me. I live there.

[Deadmanwalking_05]

Originally Posted by Alan

Yeah, sure, you could call minimum wage a regulation, but you'd have jobs of five dollars a day with a currency of still the same purchasing power of right now.
Believe me. I live there.

I'm not talking about wages.

I'm talking about the other costs of operating and business taxes.

[Alan]

The biggest regulation that businesses escape from are high wages and working hours, not costs of operation. And even when talking about costs the biggest costs of operation they escape are the measures for safe working conditions.

So you first have to account for those if you talk against regulations.

[AshleyO]

Originally Posted by Deadmanwalking_05

It is when the companies leave to avoid paying the regs.

and in turn the same regs. keep small business from growing to the full potential because the cost is passed onto the smaller businesses.

Pay a reg? Do you know what a regulation is? It's NOT a fee, it's a rule that a company has to abide by. You know? Rules and regulations?

Example:

The Food and Drug Administration determines regulations that these kinds of companies have to meet in order to be compliant with the safety and health of the consumer.

Again, without that regulation to keep them in check, they would be dumping their waste INTO your drinking water because it's the easiest and most convenient thing to do.

Minimum wage is a REGULATION. One in which they would LOVE to see go away.

40 hour work weeks are a REGULATION. And one that they're trying to avoid so that they don't have to supply anyone with health insurance because it's cheaper to just hire two guys for part time instead of one guy full time.

The Environmental Protection Agency is a REGULATION that keeps companies and other malcontents from destroying the environment so that you have CLEAN AIR TO BREATHE. Something they'd love to do away with so that we will ignore the signs of global warming and just pump our carcinogens into the air willy nilly.

You are taking up for small business as if it's a victim and you're saying that if they had the chance, they'd be BIG business. That would essentially lead us right back to square one. Any business, big or small, doesn't matter on their trustworthiness because capitalism is a system modeled after the idea of maximizing profits at the cheapest price while using as little resources possible to do it.

I fail to see how you think deregulating business would all of a sudden make them altruistic to the plight of the worker.

My paycheck is NOT going to go up because we got rid of the minimum wage regulation. It's going to go down.

[AshleyO]

Originally Posted by Alan

The biggest regulation that businesses escape from are high wages and working hours, not costs of operation. And even when talking about costs the biggest costs of operation they escape are the measures for safe working conditions.

So you first have to account for those if you talk against regulations.

I don't think he knows what regulations are.

Minimum wage is a regulation.

Safe work environments are a regulation.

Providing health insurance to your workers is a regulation.

Abiding by environmental, health, and public welfare standards is a regulation.

Why does he think regulations are something else?

The catch to the two biggest regulations (high wages and safe work) is that they'd have to take that out of their profits. No one is going to allow them to try to preserve their profit margin if they met the standards of high wages and safe work.

[Deadmanwalking_05]

Originally Posted by AshleyO

Pay a reg? Do you know what a regulation is? It's NOT a fee, it's a rule that a company has to abide by. You know? Rules and regulations?

Example:

The Food and Drug Administration determines regulations that these kinds of companies have to meet in order to be compliant with the safety and health of the consumer.

Again, without that regulation to keep them in check, they would be dumping their waste INTO your drinking water because it's the easiest and most convenient thing to do.

Minimum wage is a REGULATION. One in which they would LOVE to see go away.

40 hour work weeks are a REGULATION. And one that they're trying to avoid so that they don't have to supply anyone with health insurance because it's cheaper to just hire two guys for part time instead of one guy full time.

The Environmental Protection Agency is a REGULATION that keeps companies and other malcontents from destroying the environment so that you have CLEAN AIR TO BREATHE. Something they'd love to do away with so that we will ignore the signs of global warming and just pump our carcinogens into the air willy nilly.

You are taking up for small business as if it's a victim and you're saying that if they had the chance, they'd be BIG business. That would essentially lead us right back to square one. Any business, big or small, doesn't matter on their trustworthiness because capitalism is a system modeled after the idea of maximizing profits at the cheapest price while using as little resources possible to do it.

I fail to see how you think deregulating business would all of a sudden make them altruistic to the plight of the worker.

My paycheck is NOT going to go up because we got rid of the minimum wage regulation. It's going to go down.

Again I'm not talking about the pay scale.

I'm talking about the other costs,like federal government taxes to keep that business going.

And not every company would be like a captin planet villian.

Man made global warming is also a myth.

I guess you believe in over population too.

[Alan]

Why are you not talking about the pay scale when that is the single most important reason businesses move?
You can't just ignore it if you're talking about this.

[AshleyO]

Yeah, Deadman.

A living wage and measures to ensure a safe work environment are the LARGEST and STRONGEST regulations in place. Why wont you address those?

[Deadmanwalking_05]

Originally Posted by AshleyO

Yeah, Deadman.

A living wage and measures to ensure a safe work environment are the LARGEST and STRONGEST regulations in place. Why wont you address those?

First off a safe work enviornment shouldn't be a cost,look at it this way.

If said company knows that eviornment is unsafe,the medical benifits are going to shoot through the roof if workers are injured because of the work enviornment,steps will be taken automatically to ensure injuries are lessened,there by self-regulating and helping the worker as well as the company.

Meaning the profits will be higher because of better productivity and everyone will be better off for it.

Higher profits mean a higher wage to the worker,which also translates into more capital for the company.

A win win if you will by doing one simple self-regulating act.

Smart companies do this.

Greedy companies don't.

If said model is followed smart companies grow while greedy companies fail due to their own inactions and low consumer support (that's the way it should be at least).

[Alan]

Yeah, no, see, offering health benefits is another form of regulation.
Over here only certain companies offer health benefits to their workers and they're the big international companies that might get international attention by unsafe practices. Even these ones only provide coverage and ensure safety by balancing these out to see which is less expensive.
However, as I pointed out, these are the big international companies, like a Delphi in Mexico. Most others aren't concerned with that because work-related injuries are just a fact of life that companies aren't responsible for. You see, the idea of compensation only exists in the first world due to the history of unionized struggle for workers rights. In the rest of the world (the world that does the jobs you want back) it's just an accident and the company just replaces you.

[AshleyO]

Originally Posted by Deadmanwalking_05

First off a safe work enviornment shouldn't be a cost,look at it this way.

Safety goggles and protective gloves as well as making sure the machines or whatever are safeguarded costs money and sometimes a lot of money. It costs money to create a safe work environment.

If said company knows that eviornment is unsafe,the medical benifits are going to shoot through the roof if workers are injured because of the work enviornment,steps will be taken automatically to ensure injuries are lessened,there by self-regulating and helping the worker as well as the company.

That's because usually by law, another regulation is to give workers health insurance, which reinforces a need to meet the safe work environment regulation. In this instance, the regulation actually saves the company money.

Meaning the profits will be higher because of better productivity and everyone will be better off for it.

Yes, if those regulations are met, I agree.

Higher profits mean a higher wage to the worker,which also translates [into more capital for the company.

That is not the norm, which means that workers' unions are in place to ensure this actually happens.

A win win if you will by doing one simple self-regulating act.

Smart companies do this.

Greedy companies don't.

You're right. Good, smart companies adhere to the regulations we are speaking about. Greedy companies don't. Can you tell me which kind of company is the normal kind? The smart or the greedy?

If said model is followed smart companies grow while greedy companies fail due to their own inactions and low consumer support (that's the way it should be at least).

Well, we agree then. Smart companies abide by the regulations. I don't know why you're so opposed to regulations then because by your own definition, you expect a good company to abide by this conduct anyway. Why do you want to give them a chance to NOT abide by it? Why should they if they don't have to?

[Deadmanwalking_05]

Originally Posted by AshleyO

It's not insanity to make those that have the ability to fix our financial crisis actually do it by paying more taxes like they should be doing.



Which means they're the ones who are most capable of fixing this problem. Not you and I.



*facepalm*



Which ironically enough, happen to be owned and operated by the super elite rich. They're not some weird entity that was spit out of the void.



No. The answer is NOT to cut spending, but to try to avoid increased spending, impose a progressive tax on the wealthiest, ease the tax on the poorer, cut spending on our military efforts overseas, bring them home, and re-appropriate that part of the budget back into public programs that are good for you and I such as universal healthcare, education, social security and financial aid in the event that we may actually need it.

I know you don't like the idea of taxation, but it's necessary and it's the lowest it's ever been... EVER and it's causing a lot of hurt cutting taxes like this.

What we face is a spending problem,not a revenue problem,the rich do pay their share along with the rest of us (after all who do you think pays your wages? the person that owns the company you work for).

More taxes on the rich means more taxes on the rest of us as well.

[Deadmanwalking_05]

Originally Posted by AshleyO

Safety goggles and protective gloves as well as making sure the machines or whatever are safeguarded costs money and sometimes a lot of money. It costs money to create a safe work environment.



That's because usually by law, another regulation is to give workers health insurance, which reinforces a need to meet the safe work environment regulation. In this instance, the regulation actually saves the company money.



Yes, if those regulations are met, I agree.



That is not the norm, which means that workers' unions are in place to ensure this actually happens.



You're right. Good, smart companies adhere to the regulations we are speaking about. Greedy companies don't. Can you tell me which kind of company is the normal kind? The smart or the greedy?



Well, we agree then. Smart companies abide by the regulations. I don't know why you're so opposed to regulations then because by your own definition, you expect a good company to abide by this conduct anyway. Why do you want to give them a chance to NOT abide by it? Why should they if they don't have to?

Self-regulation.

Not forced regulation.

If you want an example look at a thriving small business (kind of hard to find them these days but they are around).

[AshleyO]

You're backpedaling. The rich do NOT pay their fair share.

Fair would be me and you paying 5% on our income and the rich paying 50% of theirs. That's fair. That's fair and square.

But I'm done talking about that. I want you to go back to regulations.

[AshleyO]

Originally Posted by Deadmanwalking_05

Self-regulation.

Not forced regulation.

If you want an example look at a thriving small business (kind of hard to find them these days but they are around).

No. I think you'll find that regardless, weather you want to call it self regulation or forced, you came up with a standard that companies should abide by in order to be a good company. Alan already talked to you about what regulation means in places like Mexico.

What you want is to leave regulation up to the businesses that have outsourced our jobs. You want to do away with minimum wage, work hours, and health insurance on the gamble that companies will respond to the market in an altruistic manner.

If that were true, we wouldn't have to force regulations.

[Deadmanwalking_05]

Originally Posted by AshleyO

You're backpedaling. The rich do NOT pay their fair share.

Fair would be me and you paying 5% on our income and the rich paying 50% of theirs. That's fair. That's fair and square.

But I'm done talking about that. I want you to go back to regulations.

I wasn't back pedaling I was trying to answer something that was glossed over due to the conversation.

[Alan]

Deadman, I offered you first-hand experience from the businesses you want back in America and you choose to ignore that?

[AshleyO]

That part's not important anymore.

Deadman... despite our regulations in this country, did you know that there are still companies in the US that abuse their workers?

HOV services had me working 15 hour days. Sure, they paid me overtime, but they overworked us all. We had no lives.

Centerplate, another thriving smallish business, but still kinda big had a crew of temporary workers come in. Worked them over 24 hours and threatened them by telling them if they didn't work what they told them to work, they wouldn't get paid anything.

And in our current culture, where the worker believes in the imaginary authority of the owner/boss, they did it. They overworked.

In KY, they want to remove safety regulations in coal mining because "it's too expensive".

Deadman, companies aren't interested in being good parts of the community, they're interested in their bottom line. Your altruistic good guy company IS NOT the norm and not only that, but your good guys have no problem adhering to the regulations.

[Deadmanwalking_05]

Originally Posted by Alan

Yeah, no, see, offering health benefits is another form of regulation.
Over here only certain companies offer health benefits to their workers and they're the big international companies that might get international attention by unsafe practices. Even these ones only provide coverage and ensure safety by balancing these out to see which is less expensive.
However, as I pointed out, these are the big international companies, like a Delphi in Mexico. Most others aren't concerned with that because work-related injuries are just a fact of life that companies aren't responsible for. You see, the idea of compensation only exists in the first world due to the history of unionized struggle for workers rights. In the rest of the world (the world that does the jobs you want back) it's just an accident and the company just replaces you.

I'm not going to argue with you on that point dude,I'm way too tired at the moment.

(My current job is 24/7 no pay and hardly any sleep for two years trade you places)

[AshleyO]

What's your job, Deadman? 7 days a week with no pay at all and no sleep?

Are you sure we should be listening to you about deregulation?

[Deadmanwalking_05]

Originally Posted by AshleyO

What's your job, Deadman? 7 days a week with no pay at all and no sleep?

Are you sure we should be listening to you about deregulation?

To be honest I'm typing most of this stuff just to keep myself awake (except for supporting Ron Paul over Bachmann)

You're going to laugh your ass off when I tell you what the job is.

[Deadmanwalking_05]

Keeping Granny out of the nursing home and my mother out of the insane asylum.