Sex and Sexuality in the Gothic Subculture

silverbaal · 11-21-2007, 12:55 PM

I was inspired to write this after having seen: http://youtube.com/watch?v=9AnmMS953Lk . It is a video of Emilie Autumn performing "Dead is the New Alive" at the Wave Gotik Treffen. Apparently, it got a lot of negative feedback because of the nature of the video (See comments). Here, Emilie Autumn does a lot of risque stuff, as you can see. The people who responded to the video pretty much thought she was doing little more than stripping in the video. I think there is a lot more to it than that because of the nature of her experiences and background, as far as I know about them, anyways. (The whole ****[ that thing where people touch you and you don't like it] incident). But, I've still found myself stuck on this question for the last few days. So here goes:

What is the difference between the way sex and sexuality are portrayed in mainstream and popular culture and the way it is presented in the Gothic culture?

I mean the use of the body, not the way it is lyrically presented; since I think we would all agree that in subcultural music the body is used more artistically; backed with more artistic and meaningful lyrics. Even if and when meant to evoke a sexual response. Even in other ways, artistically, (music videos, art, etc), the Gothic culture is more artistic when it comes to using the human body.

BUT, I mean, during performances.

Extras, (i.e. Cradle of Filth, even if they're not Gothic, using nude models and dancers) do not count.

I mean the people within the bands using themselves on stage. (Dancing, stripping, having aenemas [Genitorturers])

Are there any performers in the Gothic scene whose performances do pretty much the same thing as do groups and artists of the mainstream, and, if so, what's the difference to you? Is it the concept behind what they do?

The act does not matter. It's the intention behind the act and the concept behind it. But what's the intention/concept to you? How do judge?

Underwater Ophelia · 11-21-2007, 01:04 PM

I actually don't think there's a difference at all...both mainstream and gothic videos are usually very sexualized.

Delkaetre · 11-21-2007, 01:22 PM

I think the gothic and alternative subcultures use sex in a much more 'violent' way, making it a lot more present.
A lot of mainstream bands have nearly nude singers (R'n'B, I'm looking at you) and so on, but within the subculture you find a lot more reason for them than just someone needing tits to liven up the set.
With Siouxie, it was used to shock and draw attention, showing off the female body in a way that other artists of the time didn't dare. The shock value is still a highly prized part of the stage show, and a lot of bands still use nudity for shock as much as sex appeal, but bands aren't afraid to allude to darker sides of sexuality to make the audience uncomfortable.
Theatres des Vampires use blood and sex to enhance the vampiric and demonic aspect they like to portray- and I'm not talking about the backing dancers, the singer had most of her clothing off and was inviting members of the audience to taste her blood when I saw them.
The singer of the SoHo Dolls does remove her clothing when she sings Stripper, a song which isn't complimentary to the profession.
A lot of bands which use the body and sexuality in their acts do so for effect, so give added visual 'oomph' to a song or show, make it stick in people's minds.
I haven't seen Genitorturers to be able to comment on their act, I'm afraid.

Rorschach Twin · 11-21-2007, 01:30 PM

It's always appeared to me that industrial and newer dark wave bands are a lot more sexual than the classics. I mean, look at The Cure, Siouxsie and the Banshees, Bauhaus, and Sisters of Mercy. They don't have a very sexual performance on stage; It is usually more about the music and the emotions. The Gothic Subculture praises individuality, and sometimes that can include BDSM, and other sexual things.

I'm actually not fond of many newer gothic rock bands for that reason though. Plus, they seem to be more worried about their look, getting the "classic sound" (which is a benign, stupid thing to do), and mostly.. sex.

silverbaal · 11-21-2007, 02:23 PM

Actually, since you guys might have seen something I've never seen before, we can expand this topic and talk about everything. Not just performances. Band art. Band image. Music Videos. Or whatever else have you. Same question. Great responses so far.

Lapin · 11-21-2007, 07:37 PM

I'm not a fan of sex having to sell music, even in mainstream. (Because yes, I sometimes listen to mainstream)

The thing is, is that I don't see what one has to do with the other, unless the song is about sex. For example, when I first heard the "Umbrella" song by Rihanna, I found the song sweet, even reassuring, the thought of friends standing beside one another. But the video is all about showing off Rihanna's body. There is no connection between the two, and it makes me angry.

I don't care about a singer's body, or what a band looks like. I just want to hear decent music.

KontanKarite · 11-21-2007, 08:38 PM

The Cure was always sexual. Sheesh. Lullaby was really homo erotic and about depression. Don't even get me started on other works they've done.

Rorschach Twin · 11-22-2007, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

The Cure was always sexual. Sheesh. Lullaby was really homo erotic and about depression. Don't even get me started on other works they've done.

That's a good point, but I don't think it's always been as blatantly sexual as it is now. I mean, duh, the Cure have an album called Pornography, and they've always had a somewhat sensual feel to their music, and just them in general (that goes for other gothic bands as well.) I mean, you could also bring up the point of bands like Alien Sex Fiend, Miranda Sex Garden, Sex Gang Children, and Bloody Dead & Sexy.

But I've never gotten so much an impression of sexuality as the newer bands have. For instance, Emily Autumn. She just seems... kind of pathetically sexual. It seems to be less about the articulation that the original bands had and more about... dark sex.

ApothoKeri · 11-22-2007, 11:35 AM

Well, sexuality has a pretty broad spectrum in music and many subcultures. I think it's very present in (almost) all forms of music, it varies more so from band to band or performer to performer, IMO. You can pick out any hip-hop video or Brittney Spears or whatever and you will see it to varying degrees.

You have to realize though that there has always been a somewhat fetish slant to sexuality as presented through music and performance in the gothic subculture since the beginning. Sometimes not so subtle, other times very subtle. Going back in time here, I remember going to see Sleep Chamber as often as I saw any true deathrock band back in the 80's. Not just me but all of us back then. That is just one very overt example and really it was probably more crossed over and intertwined back then (before everything branched out more specifically) than it is now but it HAS kind of trickeled down into modern things throughout the years. Even pre-80's before that with Punk and bondage pants, etc...there has always just been a more fetish aspect presented.

That is the only thing I really see broadly "different" in terms of sexuality in other music or subcultures in general.

Gothic.net · 11-22-2007, 12:58 PM

I thought that was simply not a particularly compelling performance. If it had been inspiring and/or impressive, I think people would have totally overlooked a taped over boobie. But, performers will generally lose if they lean too heavily on t&a when they can't bring the quality.

Rosie · 11-24-2007, 07:32 AM

I'm not a fan of everything being sexualised, either. It just cheapens it and detracts from truly artful use of sexual themes.

Catch · 11-24-2007, 06:41 PM

Sexuality is what it is. I've heard mainstream people say that the Cure is just depressing and that's all.

I don't know why but I get turned on by animation a little. Comic book stories are great. The villian is always preferred too. I think that it is because I am not mainstream and found most of my friends and happy growing up experiences with people who don't want anything to do with the mainstream.

I think, you know there are just two sides to this. People living and having friends. They are trying to do their best and the "hero" is a judgemental as* who is making people rebel, because they don't like their clothes. My life experiences make me shift to the bad guy. Not because they are bad, because the mainstream is bad and lying and trying to brainwash people into taking their sh*t.

To sum up the traits that are otherwise the ondoing of someone's social climb are hot and overwhelming acceptible, because they are the ones that treated me well.

(There is one exception, Batman. Except, in the new animated series, "Riddler" is way hot.)

Rorschach Twin · 11-24-2007, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gothic.net

I thought that was simply not a particularly compelling performance. If it had been inspiring and/or impressive, I think people would have totally overlooked a taped over boobie. But, performers will generally lose if they lean too heavily on t&a when they can't bring the quality.

True. Most things like that would be overlooked if they had talent. (Not saying Emily Autumn doesn't. I'm just restating that it was a pretty mediocre performance.)

Valerius · 11-24-2007, 11:18 PM

What can you say? Sex sells, and a lot of businessmen are always trying to cash in on that statement. That's not to detract the fact that there are a lot of artists out there who find beauty when mixing in the sensuality of sex into their craft. I think the music of Diary of Dreams is a good example, with Chrysalis being a very sexual song in the way it sounds. It's good music to fuck to, I just found out.

Some are just tacky, I suppose, and this offsets the good intentions of the artists out there with true sight. There are many facets to sexuality, and some of them aren't as beautiful as others while a good number of them are just by people who want the attention through the use of sexuality in their performance. Like that nip slip some years ago by that pop artist and that former boy band guy, whatshisface.

Then again, it doesn't take much to entertain the mindless masses, as most of them are just out to looking for whatever gives them the quickest laughs without the mindfulness required to see beauty in metaphors which a lot of us appreciate. Sadly, plain sex is what seems to shock a lot of people today, and not much of the likes of what is artsy or holds elegance in what is sexual.