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Old 02-28-2013, 10:42 AM   #76
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Well, I can't speak for most trans people, I don't know most trans people and its not my place to say what they do/don't want. However, from what I understand through interactions with my close friends who are, is that their situation isn't a choice, and had they gotten to pick how they'd be, their body would already match their gender without having to go through a long, expensive, sometimes painful process. They didn't get to choose to be trans, the only choice they got was how they'd handle it.

Don't get why you're going on about gender binary I haven't said anything about it. I did however mention a continuum, on which every person falls somewhere.

I'm not sure why you're asking with that last question there. I don't see how it is subversive to assert that you are the gender you know yourself to be.
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Old 03-01-2013, 05:37 PM   #77
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The questions I'm asking aren't part of an agrument. I really want to know the answers and I thought you guys could help me out. I wish Saya would appear again because she knows so much about trans stuff and I felt very enlightened about the position of trans activists!

Although individual cases don't matter very much in the discussion of a group as a whole, something quite uncanny happened to me last night. A dear friend of mine just admitted to me that he is undergoing treatment to become woman-bodied. He was very interested in the radical feminist perspective and agreed wholeheartedly that cis privilege doesn't exist. He also agrees that gender is a construct, that sex can not be changed and that the appearance of sex difference is part of gender. I'm going to support him (and eventually "her") through all his ups and downs while he transitions but I'm glad that he respects (un-coaxed) that to be a woman means that women do not have gender-privilege over him. I know everyone disagrees here (and I respect that) but I maintain my understanding of the hierarchy. Honestly I've known many cases of feminist allies who were trans not receiving hormone treatments or surgery because they found the implications of the act inherently sexist but I support my friend in his choices.

I'm reading Delusions of Gender by Cordelia Fine at the moment. Can't wait to get back to you guys with an actual understanding of what the brain has to do with gender!

Last edited by Languor; 03-01-2013 at 05:40 PM. Reason: bad grammar (worse than usual)
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Old 03-02-2013, 09:14 AM   #78
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What the fuck... i'm not going to even touch that wall of stupidity.
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Old 03-02-2013, 09:41 AM   #79
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Cis privilege does exist, wanna see it? Take a long, hard look in the mirror, honey. Arguing for discrimination against marginalized people? Trying to hide behind science you don't even begin to understand? Trying to systematically deny people their gender identity? These are just some of the microaggressions that go along with cis-privilege, not to mention the amount of denial and ignorance that tends to accompany all types of privilege.

It is really hard to talk about this subject without getting emotional, not only due to my own situation, but for all of my close friends and family.
It just f-ing sucks to see all the hurtful things put forth, that only serve to further marginalize people who have it tough enough as it is.

Acceptance is every thing, people who are secluded and rejected suffer greatly, and those who do the discriminating or support it are the oppressive and discriminating party. Its pretty rich for you to try to parade around as an accepting person when all you've done is try to explain why people shouldn't be accepted for who they are and allowed to live their lives in an authentic manner.

You have not put forth one intelligent argument to back up your bigotry. All I've heard is "I know this one person who agrees with my shitty views, so that's gotta be cool right?" It sounds just like homophobic ass-fucks who denigrate gay rights but "its ok because I have a gay friend".

This may be a cute, fun little discussion for you, but for some of us, this shit, these attitudes affect our goddamned lives.
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Old 03-02-2013, 10:06 AM   #80
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Yeah, and you'll find women who say patriarchy doesn't exist (I live with one, they exist!) PoC who say racism doesn't exist, gay people who say homophobia is over now that gay marriage is legalized in Canada, etc. When you suck up to the kyriarchy, you might get special treatment, after all, like Sarah Palin from the Republicans. Hell Chaz Bono thinks taking testosterone makes you a douche bag, therefore gender is biological destiny. You just have to throw your identity group under a bus to get it.

Some facts from GLAAD:

Quote:
According to a study from the Anti-Violence Project (AVP), 40% of anti-LGBT murder victims in 2011 were transgender women. Transgender women made up only 10% of anti-LGBT violence survivors.
In the same study, AVP found that transgender people of color were 28% more likely to experience physical violence compared to the rest of the sample of LGBT and HIV-affected people.
In a report from the National Transgender Discrimination Survey (NTDS) conducted by the National Gay & Lesbian Task Force and the National Center for Trangender Equality, transgender people faced double the rate of unemployment of the gereral population.
The same NTDS report found that while discrimination was pervasive throughout the transgender sample, transgender people of color, and especially African American transgender people, were consistently fare worse than white respondents.
63% of transgender people in the NTDS report sample had experienced a serious act of discrimination that majorly affected their abilibty to sustain themselves, such as loss of a job due to bias, physical and sexual assault due to bias, homelessness because of gender identity/expression, or bias-motivated denial of medical service.
http://www.glaad.org/transgender?gcl...FeZFMgodOW8Adg

For children there is a much higher risk of child abuse:

Quote:
COMMENTARY | On Feb. 20, the American Academy of Pediatrics released the disturbing, but unsurprising, results of a long-term study investigating abuse rates among transgender children. The investigation followed some 17,000 people who demonstrated "gender nonconformity" before age 11, measuring their mental health and markers for abuse in early adulthood. The findings of the study were alarming and indicate a frightening and hidden epidemic of abuse.
A full 39 percent of transgender men and 30 percent of transgender women had been abused by their parents. Most of the abuse victims demonstrated signs of post-traumatic stress disorder, a very serious condition marked by severe anxiety and suicidal ideation.
http://news.yah oo.com/transgender-c...181700625.html

Their sexual assault rates are insane:

Quote:
Most studies reveal that approximately 50% of transgender people experience sexual violence at some point in their lifetime. One in ten transgender individuals have been sexually assaulted in at least one health care setting.
http://www.mecasa.org/joomla/index.p...ojects/lgbtqqi

And so are the suicide rates:

Quote:
A staggering 41 percent of transgender people in the United States have attempted to commit suicide, according to a new survey. About 19 percent of transgender people report being refused medical care because of their gender-nonconforming status, and a shocking 2 percent have been violently assaulted in a doctor's office.
http://www.livescience.com/11208-hig...er-people.html
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Old 03-02-2013, 12:40 PM   #81
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Also to mention job discrimination. Hell who knows i might be homeless soon sleeping in jail cells picked up for prostitution because it will be the only way i could feed myself.

Hopefully i won't be forced in that situation. Hopefully someone won't attack me for using a bathroom. Hopefully my sexist, homophobic, cissexist manager will understand. Maybe i'll get by without being ***** and murdered.

But, your right. It's all in my head. Cis privilege doesn't exist.

Ape i want to hug you right now. Lol
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Old 03-02-2013, 12:43 PM   #82
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I read a story about a transwoman who died in the cold after the Salvation Army refused to take her in. I know that the SA is really shitty, but at the same time I don't think anyone going for a women-born-women shelter would be much better. Pulling cis privilege can and has killed people.
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Old 03-02-2013, 12:55 PM   #83
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It occurs to me now I should have put a trigger warning on all that, I'm really sorry if it upset anyone.
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Old 03-02-2013, 05:07 PM   #84
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I'm sorry that my questions seem to be really upsetting people. I don't believe in cis-privelege but it's more an etymology problem than anything else. I think some people here are assuming that i'm saying that "trans people are not oppressed" when I'm actually saying "trans people are not more oppressed than women". Trans people are horribly oppressed!
God, I feel like every time I say what I believe somebody calls me a fucking idiot even though I've been listening intently to what every single person has told me here. I do not hate trans people, I would take in a trans person if they were in danger, I think all shelters should, I fight for equal employment.
I also think gender is a harmful structure and I wish that no one would conform to it as rigidly as typical non-feminists and many trans people do. Telling me how many people are being raaped (by men) while saying I'm ignoring that fact (Saya, we've discussed how many women get raaped every minute.) when I very much know that men raape and oppress and kill women and people who don't fit into gender roles is not necessary. I know. I've read the horrible statistics.

ape descendant:
I'm just going to say this now. You have been harassing me from the start, you've been hella aggressive since I started posting here and I really, really appreciate your input but please stop attacking me. I am not saying anything violent towards you and yet you've called me a bigot for asking questions and sharing something I thought was interesting. In that post I was not arguing anymore by bringing up my friend. I respect you guys and I wanted to know what you thought about something I had experienced. If I'm as ignorant as you make me out to be, answer my questions instead of screaming at me for thinking something you don't! If I leave this thread (which I'd be sad to do because I've learned so much from Saya and Solumina and would love to continue discussion with them) it will be because I think it's pointless to make a point when you're ripping into me for trying to question, present and debate.

Last edited by Languor; 03-02-2013 at 05:09 PM. Reason: raaaaaaaaape correction
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Old 03-02-2013, 05:46 PM   #85
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I'm sorry that my questions seem to be really upsetting people. I don't believe in cis-privelege but it's more an etymology problem than anything else. I think some people here are assuming that i'm saying that "trans people are not oppressed" when I'm actually saying "trans people are not more oppressed than women". Trans people are horribly oppressed!
The problem here is that "women" and trans* people aren't seperate groups. I assume you mean ciswomen and transwomen, but like I pointed out, this isn't always the case. Transwomen are the very worst off, I can't find statistics to support any other group of women who's prospects are so bad. Absolutely, coming from a queer poor white woman, I have privilege over transwomen.

Quote:
God, I feel like every time I say what I believe somebody calls me a fucking idiot even though I've been listening intently to what every single person has told me here. I do not hate trans people, I would take in a trans person if they were in danger, I think all shelters should, I fight for equal employment.
I also think gender is a harmful structure and I wish that no one would conform to it as rigidly as typical non-feminists and many trans people do.
Trans people are inherently subversive to gender roles, because patriarchy says biology equals destiny. In my psychology book, it talks about a brilliant psychologist who is a trans man, who talked about how other psychologist men will say to him that women are inherently worse off at science, not knowing he is trans and got his degrees while he was living as a woman. I think he definitely is subversive and blows away sterotypes just by being. Even when Chaz Bono can be an ass about gender, he's subversive and very much oppressed.

Quote:
Telling me how many people are being raaped (by men) while saying I'm ignoring that fact (Saya, we've discussed how many women get raaped every minute.) when I very much know that men raape and oppress and kill women and people who don't fit into gender roles is not necessary. I know. I've read the horrible statistics.
Its not just men though. Women can and do inflict violence and sexually assault partners when they come out trans. My whole point is that sexual assault is held up as a feminist and women's issue, and it is, but it intersects very much with race trans issues as well.

Quote:
ape descendant:
I'm just going to say this now. You have been harassing me from the start, you've been hella aggressive since I started posting here and I really, really appreciate your input but please stop attacking me. I am not saying anything violent towards you and yet you've called me a bigot for asking questions and sharing something I thought was interesting. In that post I was not arguing anymore by bringing up my friend. I respect you guys and I wanted to know what you thought about something I had experienced. If I'm as ignorant as you make me out to be, answer my questions instead of screaming at me for thinking something you don't! If I leave this thread (which I'd be sad to do because I've learned so much from Saya and Solumina and would love to continue discussion with them) it will be because I think it's pointless to make a point when you're ripping into me for trying to question, present and debate.
Sol and I, I suspect, can speak of this more calmly because its not something we have as much personal investment in like Ape or MoC. MoC is trans and Ape is married to a transwoman as well. You can't talk about this issue without hurting someone out there, even innocent questions can be very hurtful. Their pain is very valid and exists for a reason.
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Old 03-02-2013, 06:13 PM   #86
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Saya:
I understand that this stuff is painful but I don't think I should have to bear the brunt of their anger because I am one of the many, many people who feel differently than them about the issue of gender. Their pain is very valid but I mean them no harm and it's really frustrating to endure when I'm trying to learn more about their position. I am not the worst person you will meet with radical feminist politics. I am by nature extremely careful in weighing up differences, experiences and positions before I make a decision. I'm making some big decisions right now and I'd be lying to say they weren't being influenced by this thread. I think I've gone over this before but no one knows my background so discussing my privilege based on my gender is bound to be inaccurate. I don't want calmness, I want to be able to discuss my views without being violently aggressed upon. If this is impossible, I'm outta here.
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Old 03-02-2013, 06:56 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Languor View Post
Saya:
I understand that this stuff is painful but I don't think I should have to bear the brunt of their anger because I am one of the many, many people who feel differently than them about the issue of gender. Their pain is very valid but I mean them no harm and it's really frustrating to endure when I'm trying to learn more about their position. I am not the worst person you will meet with radical feminist politics. I am by nature extremely careful in weighing up differences, experiences and positions before I make a decision. I'm making some big decisions right now and I'd be lying to say they weren't being influenced by this thread. I think I've gone over this before but no one knows my background so discussing my privilege based on my gender is bound to be inaccurate. I don't want calmness, I want to be able to discuss my views without being violently aggressed upon. If this is impossible, I'm outta here.
But nobody owes anyone education. Like, I've seen pretty much the same conversation play out because race is a social construct, so white people tend to take that the wrong way to be "colorblind" about racism. Because something is a social construct doesn't mean it isn't real or important.

Actually you know in the eighties, this was taken to the logical conclusions that if gender isn't real, then you can't say who's a man and who's a woman. You can't define woman. This should be true here on the internet, we cannot see each other's bodies and have some kind of anonymity. Yet the same issues in the real world exist in the cyber world, even when our bodies aren't supposed to come into play. I don't know if you're familiar with cyberfeminism or material feminism, but its interesting to look at how we are embodied and disembodied on that view rather than singling out trans folk. Its useful for transfolk as a liberating means, but not to single out why transitioning is futile/sexist.

And its not really helpful to argue semantics when a) words have weight and meaning and are never innocent, and b) it has no praxis. What does it mean you cant change your sex? What real world implication does that have?
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Old 03-02-2013, 07:34 PM   #88
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I have not been harassing you, merely replying on this thread.

I have not attacked you merely called you on your bullshit. You have made your inability to take criticism abundantly apparent. I won't even begin to address your lack of empathy for the folks who live this shit, in the way you talk about trans people and trans issues.

I am sorry that you're either too stupid or too blind to see how the ignorant shit you've been spewing is hurtful to people. I find your ignorance sickening, and your manner pusillanimous.

You don't get to speak about a group of people in a degrading, de-humanizing and marginalizing way without being called on it. Own your shit.

Kindly go fuck yourself, I'm out.
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Old 03-02-2013, 07:37 PM   #89
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M.O.C. *hugs*
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Old 03-02-2013, 07:42 PM   #90
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Saya:
I don't think anyone owes me an education. I wasn't asking for a gender lesson, I was asking what you guys think. Well in all honesty I was asking you specifically about terminology because you seemed to know a lot about it and you seemed to want to help me out. Every question not directed at you was just one I thought someone might like to talk about.
I've come to the conclusion that my beliefs are extremely unwelcome here to the point that no one wants to discuss or debate them. I'm ok with that.
But seriously, thanks for trying to help me Saya. You have been pretty patient with me while I came to understand some of this stuff even though I'm a troll with low reading comprehension. : )

Murder.Of.Crows:
I'm sorry you were hurt by my posts. I was not questioning the legitimacy of your lifestyle or gender and I certainly wasn't trying to hurt your feelings by dredging up old hurts. It is wrong that people oppress you for the way you live your life and I will always fight for the rights of trans people.
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Old 03-02-2013, 08:53 PM   #91
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Part of debating is acknowledging when you are wrong or mis informed. You seem to be incapable of doing so. Which, for myself, was the more infuriating issue.

Your denial of CIS privilege is pretty irriatating. Espiecially when you list off exactly what privileges you get and then assume it's like that for everyone. Privilege isn't oppresion, mind you. It is granted by oppression, but it isn't exactly opressing people.

For example, my life, as a trans woman, will always be easier than a trans* poc. I have privilege over them. Denying that refuses them acknowledgement of their hardships. That is opprersion.

How is transitioning sexist?

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Old 03-02-2013, 09:51 PM   #92
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No no! I'm quite ready to admit when I am wrong or misinformed! I'm never embarrassed when an inconsistency is addressed in my arguments. I just don't think my beliefs are wrong.
I feel a little misunderstood. I believe that privilege is one group benefiting from the oppression of another group and I was trying to gather opinions on how female at birth women benefit from the oppression of transwomen. I was definitely not arguing that trans people weren't oppressed, just that FAB women were not benefiting from it. It was more of a question than an opinion but you're not responsible for my enlightenment as Saya says, so I no longer expect any answers.

I didn't say that I thought transitioning was sexist, I said I've known people to say so. A lot of what I'm talking about is what I've overheard/read and I wanted to know what you thought. I'm not saying much about what I believe here.
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Old 03-03-2013, 12:00 AM   #93
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No no! I'm quite ready to admit when I am wrong or misinformed! I'm never embarrassed when an inconsistency is addressed in my arguments.
Really? Cuz you react like someone is kicking your puppy anytime someone dares to say that anything about one of your posts is even a little problematic.

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I just don't think my beliefs are wrong.
Because you refuse to accept anything that contradicts what you already believe. Sure you'll take on new info but you haven't reevaluated your own position, even though it is a topic that you admit to know little about.

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Originally Posted by Languor View Post
I feel a little misunderstood.
Then by all means explain.

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Originally Posted by Languor View Post
I believe that privilege is one group benefiting from the oppression of another group and I was trying to gather opinions on how female at birth women benefit from the oppression of transwomen.
And people have tried to explain it to you.

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Originally Posted by Languor View Post
I was definitely not arguing that trans people weren't oppressed, just that FAB women were not benefiting from it.
And you're wrong, people have already pointed out some of the ways that cis women benefit.

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Originally Posted by Languor View Post
It was more of a question than an opinion but you're not responsible for my enlightenment as Saya says, so I no longer expect any answers.
By all means ask questions but for fucks sake show a little respect for people and understand that it is a sensitive topic. Right now you're acting like guys who get all smug and self righteous when talking with women about women's rights.

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I'm not saying much about what I believe here.
Well then why don't you share your beliefs? Or perhaps say that these things, some of which are really hurtful, are things that you have heard and would like people's opinions on?

Basically what it comes down to is that for you trans* issues are just a topic of discussion but to others here this is their life you are talking about. Maybe things would go a little better if you kept that in mind.
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Old 03-03-2013, 12:32 AM   #94
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It's not just a topic of discussion, it matters a lot to me. It matters a lot to me because I want to help trans people. I fight for everyone who is oppressed in our social system.

I wish you could hear my tone because it is not smug, it is pleading. I'm really pretty shattered that anyone got hurt by what I said. My apology for that is sincere.

The reason I'm not stating my beliefs is that I'm in a place right now where I'm trying to form them. I'm reading everything and comparing facts and taking note of experiences and researching, researching, researching because it matters so much to me that social justice is not isolated, ignorant or inexperienced. I'm trying to get there. I'm sorry I got my inexperience all over the place.

It was a bad idea to discuss sex and gender with people I didn't know. You guys looked smart so I thought I'd found a group that would like to hear what I had to say(/ask). I didn't take into account that it would be such a raw nerve to some to discuss what I had read around the net and in books. I'll be more careful where I'm posting next time.
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