Establish Your Legacy

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Saya

Hey man, apparently you can't freegan postage to New Zealand.

I take it that's something about not being able to afford Merino wool.

That's all well and good, as that shit's EXPENSIVE. (Though well worth the price).

I can see vegans bitching about fur, but WOOL? Really?

You want to feed yourself an inferior diet out of misplaced guilt fine, but sheep need to be sheared, and there are plenty of outfits here in America that produce wool humainly.

[Despanan]

Oh wait, I see. You thought I was complaining about you not mailing it.

I wasn't.

[Saya]

Wool has the same problems dairy and eggs do, you in theory don't need to kill the animal but thats where they end up. Merino sheep die of heat exposure because they were bred to have more wool, and die of exposure when sheared. If they survive that, the castrating, and the mulesing, they end up in slaughterhouses all the same. I grew up next to a farmer who sheared sheep, it was pretty grotesque. My sister is a voracious carnivore and she feels bad about wool after watching Dirty Jobs.

And I have a sensitivity anyway, I still have an old wool coat and I can't touch it without my hands getting rashes.

[Versus]

Originally Posted by Saya

Being a connoisseur of handsome men?

I think it's just men in general.

[Sir Canvas Corpsey]

Originally Posted by Versus

I think it's just men in general.

I'm the type who prefers a hands-on sampling too.

[Garethsteen]

Originally Posted by Timeless Rebellion

You don't decide to leave a legacy.
Stay here long enough and it's just there.

Ok my bad, but a person's actions will contribute to the legacy they leave. So in that respect the person can either allow their legacy to develop in the minds of others or actively try and cultivate a specific legacy. That was what I was meaning. Though now that I think about it, why would anyone opt for the second option? Every time I have has led to disaster. Hmm, ok shutting up now.

[Fruitbat]

I'll be remembered for being a bad tempered moron with absolutely nothing remotely interesting to say.

[CptSternn]

Legacy? I am FOREVER!

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by Despanan

I am probably at least partially responsible for:


-Underwater Ophelia no longer posting her poetry

I can't let that one go, dude.
I stopped posting it anywhere because no one has anything worthwhile to say about ANYTHING, let alone poetry.

Also I haven't really been writing anything.

[JCC]

Originally Posted by Despanan

I can see vegans bitching about fur, but WOOL? Really?

You want to feed yourself an inferior diet out of misplaced guilt fine, but sheep need to be sheared

Hell nah, do you think before humans came around and started farming sheep each season they would just be lying on the grass in the summer with their tongues lolling out, mindlessly baaaaing with desperation because the heat was so intense? Sheep shed their wool.

[KontanKarite]

Veganism is just silly. I mean, who gives a good god damn?

I'd rather the meat industry to be as organic and humane as possible before just divorcing humanity from the rest of the animal kingdom. We're at the top of the bloody food chain.

I remember when I kept running into people on OKC answering a question as to which was worse, starving children or abused animals.

So many Veganfags saying that abused animals are worse than starving children and other people saying it's equally bad. Where the fuck are people's priorities? Really?

Fuck... give it a cute furry face and a little black pug nose and we get all Disneyfied on their delicious asses.

...GODDAMNIT! DESPANAN DON'T FUCKING DERAIL MY THREAD YOU TRAILFAG!

[Despanan]

Ophie: My bad, I guess I made an incorrect assumption. I just noticed that you stopped posting it right around when I started poking some good natured fun at it.

Originally Posted by JCC

Hell nah, do you think before humans came around and started farming sheep each season they would just be lying on the grass in the summer with their tongues lolling out, mindlessly baaaaing with desperation because the heat was so intense? Sheep shed their wool.

Correct, however after generations and generations of selective breeding the modern sheep is vastly different from the pre-human sheep. They've been engineered to grow their wool quickly and continuosly, and while it's true they do shed their wool, if they are not shorn their hair becomes matted, uncomfortable, and can lead to skin conditions, parasites, etc. Merino sheep don't shed at all in any meaningful way, and can die of heat exposure if not shorn.

Originally Posted by Saya

Merino sheep die of heat exposure because they were bred to have more wool, and die of exposure when sheared. If they survive that, the castrating, and the mulesing, they end up in slaughterhouses all the same. I grew up next to a farmer who sheared sheep, it was pretty grotesque. My sister is a voracious carnivore and she feels bad about wool after watching Dirty Jobs.

Looks like you need to be more discerning about who you buy from then as opposed to swearing off it entirely. For instance try something like icebreaker:

www.icebreaker.com

The wool they produce is actually hypoallergenic (though not as much as they claim) and their business practices, are sustainable and cruelty free. Plus you'll do more for the sheeps quality of life in the long run by supporting buisinesses which do thing the right way, than by abstaining entirely.

Anyway, it's stupid to say: "I don't use wool because it's not vegan" if you really don't use it because you're allergic.

[KontanKarite]

I think Ophelia's lying.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

I think Ophelia's lying.

Nah, I don't lie.
Plus, no one's even said anything all that mean that would make me stop posting stuff here, so why else would I do it?

[Despanan]

Because you're insecure and passive aggressive?

Just sayin'...

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by Despanan

Because you're insecure and passive aggressive?

Just sayin'...

No, like I said, I really haven't been writing much.
Also, what little I've written in the past few months, I haven't posted anywhere.

I hate repeating myself.

[KontanKarite]

I hate when you repeat yourself too.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

Veganism is just silly. I mean, who gives a good god damn?

I'd rather the meat industry to be as organic and humane as possible before just divorcing humanity from the rest of the animal kingdom. We're at the top of the bloody food chain.

I doubt thats ever going to happen, and it can't happen if we eat the amount of meat we do and expect it to be the same after everything is organic and "humane". Most of what is considered "humane" certainly isn't up to my standards, so I won't eat it. And, its easier and cheaper to be vegan then to witness the slaughter of every animal I eat and pay an enormous amount of money for organic and humane meat. Lentils beat leg of lamb price ways every time. If it were to happen, we'd go back to eating very little meat like we did before it was subsidized.

I remember when I kept running into people on OKC answering a question as to which was worse, starving children or abused animals.

So many Veganfags saying that abused animals are worse than starving children and other people saying it's equally bad. Where the fuck are people's priorities? Really?

I would not say at all that they are worse. I hate comparing horrors to each other, its like "What is worse? The White Terror in Taiwan or The Cultural Revolution in China?" Both are fucking horrible. And its not like veganism is the only good thing I ever do and I ignore humans, you know this.

Correct, however after generations and generations of selective breeding the modern sheep is vastly different from the pre-human sheep. They've been engineered to grow their wool quickly and continuosly, and while it's true they do shed their wool, if they are not shorn their hair becomes matted, uncomfortable, and can lead to skin conditions, parasites, etc. Merino sheep don't shed at all in any meaningful way, and can die of heat exposure if not shorn.

Which is why I think breeding itself is unethical. Its cruel to bring animals in the world that are going to suffer just by being alive, just so we can make money off of them.

Looks like you need to be more discerning about who you buy from then as opposed to swearing off it entirely. For instance try something like icebreaker:

www.icebreaker.com

The wool they produce is actually hypoallergenic (though not as much as they claim) and their business practices, are sustainable and cruelty free. Plus you'll do more for the sheeps quality of life in the long run by supporting buisinesses which do thing the right way, than by abstaining entirely.

They don't say that they don't slaughter or breed, they just say they get to roam around and they don't get mulesing. Lots of people throw around the words "sustainable" and "cruelty free".

Now, if you're a knitter, Despanan, and want to use wool, I'd recommend Homestead, all the sheep are rescues, they aren't bred, and they are never slaughtered: http://www.homesteadwoolandgiftfarm.com/

However its thirty dollars for two skeins. I can get a fuck load of nice cotton yarn for cheaper. I can recycle sweaters for free. Sticking to veganism is the cheaper and easier thing to do in this case.

Secondly, I don't knit everything I wear, in fact, in the run of a year most of what I knit are gifts for others, what I knit for myself is limited to a scarf here and there and hats. Meanwhile, most of my clothes and most of everyone else's are made in Bangladesh and other places where they don't treat humans very well so I wouldn't imagine they treat animals really well either.

So, if someone is knitting, and they buy from Homestead and other such places, or they buy wool things from the thrift store and recycle sweaters, I'm not going to go around with a bucket of red paint and throw it on them. Even if it was another vegan, more power to them. I myself am not comfortable buying wool, hypoallergenic or not, even if I could, but thats one of those issues where there's a way I think of being ethical without necessarily being a vegan thing. More power to you. I do suspect that you're not going to live your life buying from Homestead and making all your clothes and only eating "humane" and organic meat and having a smile on your face for all of God's creatures, so I would politely ask you not to hold me to the standards you don't apply to yourself. I never said a thing in this thread to mean that everyone should do what I do, there's a few other things you can do that I wouldn't have a problem with, and I think I've been pretty damn good at not being a judgemental vegan for the last year or so. And I didn't want to turn this thread in a debate about veganism, I'm merely trying to explain why wool isn't vegan. At the most basic, the definition of a vegan is one who avoids animal products, and ethical or no, wool is an animal product. Again, I would emphasize that things like Homstead might not be vegan, but I would be thrilled if thats what yarn snobs knit with. The skeins I can get for a decent price at Michael's? Definitely from factory farms, so I know its not.

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Saya

I doubt thats ever going to happen, and it can't happen if we eat the amount of meat we do and expect it to be the same after everything is organic and "humane". Most of what is considered "humane" certainly isn't up to my standards, so I won't eat it.

Your standards are "Don't" so who cares?

And, its easier and cheaper to be vegan then to witness the slaughter of every animal I eat and pay an enormous amount of money for organic and humane meat. Lentils beat leg of lamb price ways every time. If it were to happen, we'd go back to eating very little meat like we did before it was subsidized.

Wait, so you would eat meat if you got to see the animal killed each time?

I would not say at all that they are worse. I hate comparing horrors to each other, its like "What is worse? The White Terror in Taiwan or The Cultural Revolution in China?" Both are fucking horrible. And its not like veganism is the only good thing I ever do and I ignore humans, you know this.

The fact that you would compare either of these real horrors to a slaughterhouse displays exactly the lack of perspective that Kontan is complaining about.

Which is why I think breeding itself is unethical. Its cruel to bring animals in the world that are going to suffer just by being alive, just so we can make money off of them.

People are going to suffer just by being alive. Is it then cruel to have children?

What's your answer? Let the thousands and thousands of domesticated animals suddenly roam free to kill each other, shit on everything, destroy property and starve to death/be hit by cars?

They don't say that they don't slaughter or breed, they just say they get to roam around and they don't get mulesing. Lots of people throw around the words "sustainable" and "cruelty free".

True, but as you yourslef admit that your standards of sustainable and cruely free are straight up batshit insane I'd say they're doing well.

Now, if you're a knitter, Despanan, and want to use wool, I'd recommend Homestead, all the sheep are rescues, they aren't bred, and they are never slaughtered: http://www.homesteadwoolandgiftfarm.com/

However its thirty dollars for two skeins. I can get a fuck load of nice cotton yarn for cheaper. I can recycle sweaters for free. Sticking to veganism is the cheaper and easier thing to do in this case.

My Girlfriend nits, but doesn't have a problem with regular wool. Interesting link though.

You aren't a vegan because it's "easier and cheaper" though you're a vegan because you have a warped Disneyfied view of animals: How they think, How they should be handled, and how they interact. This is partially brought on by your religious choices, but I suspect this viewpoint runs deeper.

You wouldn't suddenly become a meat-eater if the price of lentils went up, so stop using the "easier and cheaper" argument. It's stupid and a cop-out.

Secondly, I don't knit everything I wear, in fact, in the run of a year most of what I knit are gifts for others, what I knit for myself is limited to a scarf here and there and hats. Meanwhile, most of my clothes and most of everyone else's are made in Bangladesh and other places where they don't treat humans very well so I wouldn't imagine they treat animals really well either.

So, if someone is knitting, and they buy from Homestead and other such places, or they buy wool things from the thrift store and recycle sweaters, I'm not going to go around with a bucket of red paint and throw it on them. Even if it was another vegan, more power to them. I myself am not comfortable buying wool, hypoallergenic or not, even if I could, but thats one of those issues where there's a way I think of being ethical without necessarily being a vegan thing. More power to you. I do suspect that you're not going to live your life buying from Homestead and making all your clothes and only eating "humane" and organic meat and having a smile on your face for all of God's creatures, so I would politely ask you not to hold me to the standards you don't apply to yourself.

I'm only holding you to your own standards. The fact of the matter is, that I think you being a vegan is more about giving yourself a lifestyle and assuaging your own misplaced guilt than actually doing what is best for animals in question.

That is why you keep mentioning stuff like "cheaper" and your allergies, and that is why you don't really care if the clothes you wear are made by mistreated people in bangladesh, so long as they are cheap.

I never said a thing in this thread to mean that everyone should do what I do, there's a few other things you can do that I wouldn't have a problem with, and I think I've been pretty damn good at not being a judgemental vegan for the last year or so. And I didn't want to turn this thread in a debate about veganism, I'm merely trying to explain why wool isn't vegan. At the most basic, the definition of a vegan is one who avoids animal products, and ethical or no, wool is an animal product. Again, I would emphasize that things like Homstead might not be vegan, but I would be thrilled if thats what yarn snobs knit with. The skeins I can get for a decent price at Michael's? Definitely from factory farms, so I know its not.

I'm sorry Saya, but if you embrace veganism and the philosophy behind it, you simply cannot be a non-judgemental unobtrusive vegan. You believe that breeding, slaughtering, and utilizing animals as labor and resources is (at least) ethically comparable to doing the same to humans. Just like the pro-lifers who scream "abortion is murder" if you truly believed what you claim to it would be impossible for you to be a part of society.

So what do you do? you agree based upon an emotional reaction to a particular maxim (in your case probably "Don't eat meat, it's like eating your mother" and probably "Fur is murder") and you don't really think about it. You just use it as your operating principal and alter your lifestyle to match others who have also adopted it. It doesn't matter that this operating principal and the lifestyle it demands is fundamentally flawed and logically inconsistent because you haven't really thought about it, instead accepting it on emotional grounds alone.

Anyway, I'm sorry to jump all over you for simply explaining that you're not sending a dude a wool scarf, but a synthetic one. Veganism is a pet-peeve of mine, but this really isn't the place for a debate about it as a philosophy or a lifestyle choice. So my bad on that one.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Despanan

Your standards are "Don't" so who cares?



Wait, so you would eat meat if you got to see the animal killed each time?

I'm saying there's multiple reasons why I don't do things, but I'll explain when I get to your other point.

I wouldn't eat meat if I could see the animal each time, I'm saying that seems to be what ethical meat people want.

The fact that you would compare either of these real horrors to a slaughterhouse displays exactly the lack of perspective that Kontan is complaining about.

I didn't compare it to a slaughterhouse, I'm saying taking something horrible that happens and comparing to something thats also horrible but maybe moreso, doesn't mean the first thing is suddenly okay. Its stupid to make comparisons at all, no where in my daily choices do I decide between animals and humans, and most of them benefit both.

People are going to suffer just by being alive. Is it then cruel to have children?

What's your answer? Let the thousands and thousands of domesticated animals suddenly roam free to kill each other, shit on everything, destroy property and starve to death/be hit by cars?

We've had this argument before. No, I'm not saying release them all into the wild, I do like what Homestead does, we could reduce the population that way.

True, but as you yourslef admit that your standards of sustainable and cruely free are straight up batshit insane I'd say they're doing well.

I don't think my standards are insane, but I do know I'm in a small minority and people would feel good buying things that are labeled organic or humane without really thinking if what is considered "humane" meets their standards.

My Girlfriend nits, but doesn't have a problem with regular wool. Interesting link though.

You aren't a vegan because it's "easier and cheaper" though you're a vegan because you have a warped Disneyfied view of animals: How they think, How they should be handled, and how they interact. This is partially brought on by your religious choices, but I suspect this viewpoint runs deeper.

You wouldn't suddenly become a meat-eater if the price of lentils went up, so stop using the "easier and cheaper" argument. It's stupid and a cop-out.

Now, because I don't knit because I have a sensitivity, and eating vegan is cheap, but I'm not saying that because those are the baseline of my reasons for being vegan. I'm saying it to let you know that arguing with me won't make me change my mind, and also, its not like veganism is the cross that I bear. Its easy for me, its beneficial for me in many ways, its not like I'm deprived and eating boiled vegetables and making bare little sweaters. I'm not sacrificing anything. Its okay Despanan, don't worry about me, I'm thriving.

I'm only holding you to your own standards. The fact of the matter is, that I think you being a vegan is more about giving yourself a lifestyle and assuaging your own misplaced guilt than actually doing what is best for animals in question.

I don't know how you can argue that leaving animals alone and not using them is worse than breeding them so that they need to be sheared or they will die. And then they die anyway because people suck at caring for them.

That is why you keep mentioning stuff like "cheaper" and your allergies, and that is why you don't really care if the clothes you wear are made by mistreated people in bangladesh, so long as they are cheap.

No, I brought it up because its why it doesn't matter if your girlfriend knits with shit from the link you posted, either way if you buy a woolen sweater, there's animal suffering and person suffering. Handmade things account for very little of most people's wardrobe. I'd argue buying thrift or getting your yarn from non animal sources is best, although I'm okay if other people use things like Homestead shit.

I'm sorry Saya, but if you embrace veganism and the philosophy behind it, you simply cannot be a non-judgemental unobtrusive vegan. You believe that breeding, slaughtering, and utilizing animals as labor and resources is (at least) ethically comparable to doing the same to humans. Just like the pro-lifers who scream "abortion is murder" if you truly believed what you claim to it would be impossible for you to be a part of society.

There's no such thing as being able to be 100% self sufficient and ethical and never purchase a thing that didn't cause suffering, but I try my best. I can't say I don't judge at all, thats true, but I made a choice not to antagonize everyone over it because animal use is very ingrained in our minds.

So what do you do? you agree based upon an emotional reaction to a particular maxim (in your case probably "Don't eat meat, it's like eating your mother" and probably "Fur is murder") and you don't really think about it. You just use it as your operating principal and alter your lifestyle to match others who have also adopted it. It doesn't matter that this operating principal and the lifestyle it demands is fundamentally flawed and logically inconsistent because you haven't really thought about it, instead accepting it on emotional grounds alone.

I have thought about it a lot and I think its is perfectly consistent and logic. But we weren't arguing about all the veganism issues, we were just talking about wool. And again, I was just trying to explain why people, and its not just vegans, have problems with the wool industry. I even conceded that in the case of things like Homestead or recycling wool, I don't have a problem with it. But I think in the long run of all the types of animal use, the things that are ethical but not vegan is very small. So, I'm vegan. And again, I didn't want to derail this and debate about veganism.

Anyway, I'm sorry to jump all over you for simply explaining that you're not sending a dude a wool scarf, but a synthetic one. Veganism is a pet-peeve of mine, but this really isn't the place for a debate about it as a philosophy or a lifestyle choice. So my bad on that one.

Says he after ranting about it :P

[Alan]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

I'd rather the meat industry to be as organic and humane as possible before just divorcing humanity from the rest of the animal kingdom.

The organic movement is bullshit. The way to go is vegan industrialism.

[Saya]

Can we not argue about this though? It never goes well.

If we just drop it now I'll count it as my Christmas gift. I'll even drop something later down the road if you ask me to. Think of this as an "IOU One "Making Peace" Post".

[HumanePain]

I think my legacy will be as Gnet's Grandfather Goth and recycled teenager who once in a while wrote something worth reading in the Literature forum, and made a few fun videos of Gnet. Oh, and that I would overdo the arthritis pain killers sometimes resulting in oddly stupid posts, and just being generally creepy.

[Alan]

Why had I not heard of these videos before?
Damn!

[HumanePain]

I thought you had seen them already? You are in two of them:

http://www.youtube.com/user/man4Sam#p/u

This will list on the upper right side my total uploads, so if you like you can ignore the ones of me clowning around with my grandson, but the rest are of Gnet, seven of them to be exact not counting disorder's birthday video (I miss her, wish she would chime in again now and then). If you count hers then it is eight, because I never would have met her if it hadn't been for Gnet.

There are many members you will recognize but some you may not as they don't come around anymore. (snif!) Some of the coolest people don't stay around because they grow up, can't stand the snarks or get busy with life.
I have thought of doing new versions with names in subtitles, but anyway, if you want to know who a particular person is just note the minutes/seconds into the video and post the question and I will answer. I have thousands and thousands of Gnet photos organized by names and know them all.