Viewpoints on atheism and a supernatural being (and/or Beings, Aliens, and Santa)

[Sinjob]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

You see, I take a very honest approach. There is no evidence supporting the existence of a supernatural and if there is, I don't have it in my heart to give a damn. I just plain old do not care if there's a god or not and when its existence is put up to scrutiny, I've never once been given a reason to actually embrace the idea of a god.

BRO YOU'RE AGNOSTIC!!!!!!!!!!!!

More like apathy, really. I feel the same way overall.

[voodoowitchdr]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

You see, I take a very honest approach. There is no evidence supporting the existence of a supernatural and if there is, I don't have it in my heart to give a damn. I just plain old do not care if there's a god or not and when its existence is put up to scrutiny, I've never once been given a reason to actually embrace the idea of a god.

Interesting story:

My great grandmother just died a few days ago. About a week before, she was on her last legs. Docs thought she was going to die. But she had a positive turn around for a week. However, my father says on facebook, "Minnie has taken a turn for the better. The power of prayer actually works!" Ironic. Well, she's dead now... a week later.

Same thing happened to my grandfather who died of liver cyrosis.

[Hearts_Purple]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

You see, I take a very honest approach. There is no evidence supporting the existence of a supernatural and if there is, I don't have it in my heart to give a damn. I just plain old do not care if there's a god or not and when its existence is put up to scrutiny, I've never once been given a reason to actually embrace the idea of a god.

Interesting story:

My great grandmother just died a few days ago. About a week before, she was on her last legs. Docs thought she was going to die. But she had a positive turn around for a week. However, my father says on facebook, "Minnie has taken a turn for the better. The power of prayer actually works!" Ironic. Well, she's dead now... a week later.

I suppose the point of this is that God as we know it, doesn't SAVE anyone. If god were real, god does not interfere with chance or the chaotic nature of the universe. To save one from doom is not what god would do because when doom happens it's always HIS will.

Last year when my Grandmother was dying in the hospital my grandfather had the gall to tell me I should pray that my children's autism gets better. I told him that we are doing real things like having them on a schedule and working with them in school rather than relying on divine intervention.

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by vindicatedxjin

Alan, really? really? you're always so angry about anything posted that budges in difference to anything you believe. What I've posted are my current "THOUGHTS" I'm not stating that everything I say is complete truth, it's what, after much though has made the most sense to me. I actually hope I'm wrong. I wish that humanity strives and that we really, truly have a meaning on this earth. Why be angry with me about that?

Yes, and your thoughts are stupid.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by Sinjob

BRO YOU'RE AGNOSTIC!!!!!!!!!!!!

More like apathy, really. I feel the same way overall.

No. I'm actually soft atheist. There is no god from what I've observed and what people bring up as evidence. Nothing from my experiences has given me reason to believe there is a god, so therefor, I don't.

[Sinjob]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

No. I'm actually soft atheist. There is no god from what I've observed and what people bring up as evidence. Nothing from my experiences has given me reason to believe there is a god, so therefor, I don't.

Oh I know what you're saying, just being tongue in cheek with how quick people are to label others' beliefs. I feel ya dawg. I feel ya.

[ape descendant]

Originally Posted by vindicatedxjin

I'm all for learning more... I think the reason why I equate things the way that I do, is because of my past of Christianity. I've had it effect my life for so long that it's a crazy transition getting away from it. I think this is what pisses others off so bad. They don't realize that I'm just starting to break away from it.

A past of Christianity can be very difficult to break away from. I have had to battle with false ideas and bad through processes that had been instilled in me during my upbringing in a devout Christian household.

The arguments that you had previously presented certainly point to religious origin, and when one starts out with such a source it is difficult at first to come to one's own conclusions and be able to reject ideas that had been pounded in since one's impressionable youth.

[PortraitOfSanity]

Originally Posted by ape descendant

A past of Christianity can be very difficult to break away from. I have had to battle with false ideas and bad through processes that had been instilled in me during my upbringing in a devout Christian household.

The arguments that you had previously presented certainly point to religious origin, and when one starts out with such a source it is difficult at first to come to one's own conclusions and be able to reject ideas that had been pounded in since one's impressionable youth.

All I see is a bunch of excuses for not growing a backbone, not being willing to stick up for your own ideas, and a sickening amount of desire to please your parents by lapping up their bullshit, or pretending to at least. Grow a fucking backbone, tell your parents how you feel, and if they have an ounce of love and respect for you, they'll accept it. If not, they can get fucked, I know I wouldn't want to live with people like that.

Or don't, and continue to live a delusion. I don't care reallyh

[ape descendant]

Originally Posted by PortraitOfSanity

All I see is a bunch of excuses for not growing a backbone, not being willing to stick up for your own ideas, and a sickening amount of desire to please your parents by lapping up their bullshit, or pretending to at least. Grow a fucking backbone, tell your parents how you feel, and if they have an ounce of love and respect for you, they'll accept it. If not, they can get fucked, I know I wouldn't want to live with people like that.

Or don't, and continue to live a delusion. I don't care reallyh

Sure hon, a backbone is all it takes to undo years of brainwashing.. how silly of me. /sarcasm

[PortraitOfSanity]

Yea, because you're the only one who's ever been raised in a Christian household and decided you weren't a believer.

/sarcasm

Hon...

[Fruitbat]

Serious fruitbat for a second: I think God is within us all. I've read St Teresa of Avila's book and all her saintly powers come from within. Buddha found enlightenment inside.

We look outside for a 'God' because we need to believe someone 'out there' loves us with all our flaws - instead of looking inside. Maybe that's all Jesus et al were, enlightened people??

I think that JCC is the only person on this forum who could make a Santa suit look good.


Monty Python had it right:

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour,
That's orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so it's reckoned,
A sun that is the source of all our power.

The sun and you and me and all the stars that we can see
Are moving at a million miles a day
In an outer spiral arm, at forty thousand miles an hour,
Of the galaxy we call the 'Milky Way'.

Our galaxy itself contains a hundred billion stars.
It's a hundred thousand light years side to side.
It bulges in the middle, sixteen thousand light years thick,
But out by us, it's just three thousand light years wide.

We're thirty thousand light years from galactic central point.
We go 'round every two hundred million years,
And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions
In this amazing and expanding universe.

The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding
In all of the directions it can whizz
As fast as it can go, at the speed of light, you know,
Twelve million miles a minute, and that's the fastest speed there is.

So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,
How amazingly unlikely is your birth,
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space,
'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth.

[Despanan]

I think the reason why I equate things the way that I do, is because of my past of Christianity. I've had it effect my life for so long that it's a crazy transition getting away from it. I think this is what pisses others off so bad. They don't realize that I'm just starting to break away from it.

Actually, It's just that the ideas you're coming up with are completely looney.

I realized immediately that you were just starting to break away from that thought process (I even said so). I applaud you for this, but that doesn't mean I'm going to coddle you, or pretend that because something is "Your opinion" or "Your current idea" that it's not insanely stupid and wrong.

Realizing that there is no God, and being comfortable with that truth is a process. Hopefully you'll come to grips with it over the next few years, and not get sucked into another bullshit mudpit like wicca, scientology, or nihilism. I will continue to take you to task for every stupid idea that I see enters your head.

[PortraitOfSanity]

Originally Posted by Fruitbat

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour,
That's orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so it's reckoned,
A sun that is the source of all our power.

The sun and you and me and all the stars that we can see
Are moving at a million miles a day
In an outer spiral arm, at forty thousand miles an hour,
Of the galaxy we call the 'Milky Way'.

Our galaxy itself contains a hundred billion stars.
It's a hundred thousand light years side to side.
It bulges in the middle, sixteen thousand light years thick,
But out by us, it's just three thousand light years wide.

We're thirty thousand light years from galactic central point.
We go 'round every two hundred million years,
And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions
In this amazing and expanding universe.

The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding
In all of the directions it can whizz
As fast as it can go, at the speed of light, you know,
Twelve million miles a minute, and that's the fastest speed there is.

So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,
How amazingly unlikely is your birth,
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space,
'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth.

I don't really know you, but you just got serious awesome points.

[ape descendant]

Originally Posted by PortraitOfSanity

Yea, because you're the only one who's ever been raised in a Christian household and decided you weren't a believer.

/sarcasm

Hon...

Er, this isn't just about me. There is more to this than you're really bringing to the table...

Indoctrination happens in varying degrees, some of which can just be shaken off and others that require a little extra time and care to get around.

Being raised in some religions is like being raised in a box, where one isn't allowed to look outside it, where information is limited to the approval of the religious leaders, one cannot help being born into such a situation. So, when one is finally let out of their box, what one is left with is a distorted view of reality based in whatever dogma was chosen for that person. It takes time and education to come to a more realistic view of the world.

Your "grow a backbone" comment is like yelling at a kid with a broken leg to walk it off. It displays a glaring ignorance of this type of situation and a lack of empathy for another human's condition.

[PortraitOfSanity]

No, it's not at all like that.

You have the ability to reject your parents' "brainwashing." A kid with a broken leg does not, obviously, have the practical ability to walk on his leg.

All that stands in your way is you being afraid of your parents' reaction to you rejecting their religion.

I grew up Irish Catholic. My ex grew up as a Jehovah's Witness. My best friend grew up as a Mormom.

Now please, attack my ignorance of how certain religions TRY to limit information. Notice, I said TRY. You're making a choice to accept the bullshit, and not get information for yourself. This is the 21st century for fuck's sake. Even the fucking Chinese hack their government's firewalls to get information from the West. And if you seriously have the audacity to try to tell me you're more limited in your religious household than people are in China, you're full of horseshit.

[Despanan]

Fully accepting that there is no god usually takes time.

However, that does not mean that we should coddle vind, nor should we excuse her stupid ideas.

[Saya]

I can see that with people who had seriously damaging things done to them in the name of faith (remember that chick who was brainwashed into believing it was her fault she was rraped), but for the average Christian its not a terribly bad transition. I stopped believing in god when I was like, 12 or 13 and it was a pretty big shift in the way I thought, I was a seriously religious kid, but I really wouldn't equate that with a kid with a broken leg. I did go through a month of misanthropy like Vin seems to be going through, but she'll walk it off. Hopefully.

[PortraitOfSanity]

You're giving Vin too much credit.

[Saya]

She's not as bad as she used to be, she backed down pretty quick. When she first got here she'd argue til she was blue in the face about the stupidest things ever.

[HumanePain]

Well, I think this thread has gone through enough dissection and inclusion of the usual arguments for and against, for me to finally jump in and get my feet wet, egg on my face and warm and fuzzy. Humane shall now pontificate from The Summit of Long Experience:

First some context: attempting to understand the infinite physical universe with our finite little minds will naturally leave some gaps in our perception of life. We are mere ants on a tiny mud ball in space. I don't think there will be much argument against this comment.

And yes, I say infinite physical universe, even with the Big Bang theory, because (for the Johnny Come Lately's of the Physical Sciences) there was an infinite universe before the Big Bang. Before the Big Bang was the Big Brane. And that is not a typo (Google it).

As the edges of the Branes bump and collide, Big Bangs flash here and there and expand. So yes, there can be Big Bangs AND an Infinite Universe. But I digress.

Now, humans have evolved the ability to recognize patterns in the physical world, because it helps the species to survive. We see patterns in five petals on a flower, and five arms on a starfish, to five fingers on our hands.

This pattern recognition misleads us sometimes. We see the face of Mother Theresa in our cheddar cheese omelet. But praying to this cheesy egg concoction will not prevent cancer cells from multiplying in our pancreas.

Now to the meat of my observations about God and Freedom:

Jesus said that he did not come to heal the well, but the sick. When the physical world reminds us painfully that we are ants on a mudball, it hurts. We suffer anguish and we suffer physically. We also cause ourselves to suffer, through addictions, criminal activity whatever ("sin" some call it).

When we hurt, when we need to summon strength to endure, that is what Jesus (and other deities) wanted to address, to comfort us, to provide solace to the ostracized, the downtrodden, to those suffering under the boot of the Super Man (Nietzsche's Noble) or from disease.

This was not to overcome and prevent reality, but to provide "the opiate of the masses". This is a positive purpose of Jesus and spiritual philosophy.

But there is also the need to provide a means to overcome ourselves as I mentioned earlier about "sin". To address this, it is necessary that we replace our individual authority with a "higher" external authority. We are NOT given freedom from God. We replace the slavery to alcohol, to drugs or whatever, with the submission to God, so that we can now overcome addictions or other self destructive behavior.

Now in order for this to be successful in changing the behavior, the individual must have a complete template (replacement personality) to superimpose and eventually replace his current, flawed personality.

But remember: this is all inside the individual's mind. And to be believed
(and thus be obeyed) it must be comprehensive, and include allocating control of the physical universe to God. (Unfortunately there are self serving individuals that corrupt this and other faiths but that is another topic).

So yes, to believe in God usually means to NOT be free, the believer is subject to a supreme being that created and controls everything, and thus the individual is able to synchronize to this "spiritual universe" and effect change in their life, or extract comfort from it.

But it is for the purpose of comforting the individual's mind. Belief in God cannot replace a physical view of the universe. Gravity waves will still cause earthquakes which trigger Tsunamis which drown babies on a beach in Sri Lanka.

But now we will find comfort to treat our sadness that babies died. We will find a source of strength instead of reaching for a bottle.

Belief in God = NO freedom (but freedom from self destructive behavior)
AND
Belief in God = comfort/strength/self discipline (remember: for the sick The strong: heal thyself)

Jesus himself said that God was NOT about the dead in a heaven somewhere, but that He was here for the living (Matthew 22:33, I think).

So please don't mix God and the Physical Universe (science). they are two different things, the internal, emotional, pattern recognizing mind and the external, eternal, fascinating multi-verse.

[PortraitOfSanity]

Now she just argues til she's blue in the face about semi-stupid things?

[Despanan]

She's gotten better.

Originally Posted by HumanePain

Well, I think this thread has gone through enough dissection and inclusion of the usual arguments for and against, for me to finally jump in and get my feet wet, egg on my face and warm and fuzzy. Humane shall now pontificate from The Summit of Long Experience:

First some context: attempting to understand the infinite physical universe with our finite little minds will naturally leave some gaps in our perception of life. We are mere ants on a tiny mud ball in space. I don't think there will be much argument against this comment.

And yes, I say infinite physical universe, even with the Big Bang theory, because (for the Johnny Come Lately's of the Physical Sciences) there was an infinite universe before the Big Bang. Before the Big Bang was the Big Brane. And that is not a typo (Google it).

As the edges of the Branes bump and collide, Big Bangs flash here and there and expand. So yes, there can be Big Bangs AND an Infinite Universe. But I digress.

Now, humans have evolved the ability to recognize patterns in the physical world, because it helps the species to survive. We see patterns in five petals on a flower, and five arms on a starfish, to five fingers on our hands.

This pattern recognition misleads us sometimes. We see the face of Mother Theresa in our cheddar cheese omelet. But praying to this cheesy egg concoction will not prevent cancer cells from multiplying in our pancreas.

Now to the meat of my observations about God and Freedom:

Jesus said that he did not come to heal the well, but the sick. When the physical world reminds us painfully that we are ants on a mudball, it hurts. We suffer anguish and we suffer physically. We also cause ourselves to suffer, through addictions, criminal activity whatever ("sin" some call it).

When we hurt, when we need to summon strength to endure, that is what Jesus (and other deities) wanted to address, to comfort us, to provide solace to the ostracized, the downtrodden, to those suffering under the boot of the Super Man (Nietzsche's Noble) or from disease.

This was not to overcome and prevent reality, but to provide "the opiate of the masses". This is a positive purpose of Jesus and spiritual philosophy.

But there is also the need to provide a means to overcome ourselves as I mentioned earlier about "sin". To address this, it is necessary that we replace our individual authority with a "higher" external authority. We are NOT given freedom from God. We replace the slavery to alcohol, to drugs or whatever, with the submission to God, so that we can now overcome addictions or other self destructive behavior.

Now in order for this to be successful in changing the behavior, the individual must have a complete template (replacement personality) to superimpose and eventually replace his current, flawed personality.

But remember: this is all inside the individual's mind. And to be believed
(and thus be obeyed) it must be comprehensive, and include allocating control of the physical universe to God. (Unfortunately there are self serving individuals that corrupt this and other faiths but that is another topic).

So yes, to believe in God usually means to NOT be free, the believer is subject to a supreme being that created and controls everything, and thus the individual is able to synchronize to this "spiritual universe" and effect change in their life, or extract comfort from it.

But it is for the purpose of comforting the individual's mind. Belief in God cannot replace a physical view of the universe. Gravity waves will still cause earthquakes which trigger Tsunamis which drown babies on a beach in Sri Lanka.

But now we will find comfort to treat our sadness that babies died. We will find a source of strength instead of reaching for a bottle.

Belief in God = NO freedom (but freedom from self destructive behavior)
AND
Belief in God = comfort/strength/self discipline (remember: for the sick The strong: heal thyself)

Jesus himself said that God was NOT about the dead in a heaven somewhere, but that He was here for the living (Matthew 22:33, I think).

So please don't mix God and the Physical Universe (science). they are two different things, the internal, emotional, pattern recognizing mind and the external, eternal, fascinating multi-verse.

HP ++

[viscus]

Originally Posted by PortraitOfSanity

Yea, it does get overused. 90% of people I hear refer to themselves as atheists are actually agnostics. And usually guilt-ridden agnostics at that.

Actually, agnostic is a misused and overused term, because it's an answer to the wrong question.

Most atheists are agnostic, and many theists are too. Gnosticism is independent of theism because gnosticism refers to knowledge and theism refers to belief. So when someone is asked "Do you believe in God?" and they respond with "I'm an agnostic." they're not answering properly. The question is "Do you believe?" and not "Do you know?"

Most people who call themselves agnostic are grasping for a middle ground that doesn't exist. You either believe or you don't.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by PortraitOfSanity

Now she just argues til she's blue in the face about semi-stupid things?

She didn't really argue til she was blue in the face. She put up a bit of a fight before disowning. And she used to say she was proud of being stubborn, here she was willing to say that she could very well be wrong. She's learning! Give her another year and she'll be fine.

HP, I have to disagree that God comforts people and people sin out of existential angst. Plenty of people have faith in God and cause immense amounts of suffering, from the Inquisition to Pope Benny who hates fags and will excommunicate anyone who dares invite women into the priesthood. I don't like the idea of religion as a soothing method to encourage people to endure and feel like they have purpose. As you said, the universe is so infinite we cannot possibly know everything about it, so why assume anything about a being that may or may not exist and may or may not have created this thing we can't understand?

There's uses for religion, I think, but an emotional crutch shouldn't be one of them.

[vindicatedxjin]

Originally Posted by PortraitOfSanity

Now she just argues til she's blue in the face about semi-stupid things?

I truly don't mean to argue, and I'm sorry if I pissed people off. I understand that most of you think my thoughts on things are off the wall...but I'm just really (and I admit this with the utmost sincerity) defensive when it comes to anyone blatantly calling me an idiot.