Haiti: Where Did Our Money Go?

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Despanan

You got suckered. They're playing with the language they're using to imply that this is something which is not harmful, without straight-up lying, it doesn't matter what classification it is, it was "reclassified" as a dithiocarbamate (possibly due to pressure from companies like Monsanto).

Both sides play with language. You described them as Umbrella.

Originally Posted by Despanan

It's actually considered a class 3 poison.

Class III is the lowest danger rating above "practically nontoxic". It should not come as a surprise that a chemical designed to kill things is not completely safe to humans.

Originally Posted by Despanan

It's Very toxic to aquatic organisms - may cause long-term environmental damage. Safety glasses, gloves, adequate ventilation/face mask.

Again, agricultural products are often bad for the environment. Fertiliser run off is a problem too. Aquatic life is particularly sensitive. These problems are not particular to Monsanto, thiram, or pesticides. That university page recommends covering exposed body parts, the same as the EPA. The adequate ventilation is likely mentioned because it's a safety page for laboratories. Being outside would be adequate ventilation.

Originally Posted by Despanan

It's not exactly the worst poison in the world, but it is clearly a chemical that requires proper handling, and I don't think Haiti has the tools, nor the capital nor the basic sanitation (they're still fighting Cholera) to deal with this bullshit right now.

All pesticides require proper handling, and farmers in Haiti already use pesticides, even if it is in smaller quantities than other countries. Also, read the doses from your quote, they're huge. In fact, read the last sentence, it says as much:

These data suggest that high doses are required to cause teratatogenic effects.

Originally Posted by Despanan

Monsanto is running a seed bank scam.

That says not to buy hybrid seeds for a sustainable survival garden. Makes sense.

Originally Posted by Despanan

They have done this before and possibly driven 4500 indian farmers to suicide

From the above link, directly under the part that you quoted:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

A report released by the International Food Policy Research Institute in October 2008 provided evidence that the cause of farmer suicide in India was due to several causes and that the introduction of Bt cotton was not a major factor. It argues that the suicides predate the introduction of the cotton in 2002 and has been fairly consistent since 1997. Other studies also suggest the increase in farmer suicides is due to a combination of various socio-economic factors. These include debt, the difficulty of farming semi-arid regions, poor agricultural income, absence of alternative income opportunities, the downturn in the urban economy forcing non-farmers into farming, and the absence of suitable counseling services.

The references for the part you quoted are all internet articles with few facts and references, and they're all older than IFPRI.

Originally Posted by Despanan

Monsanto was very clearly trying to exploit a tragedy in order to ensure future profits.
...
Normally, I'm very hesitant to believe stuff like this, as it's usually doesn't make sense. This does. Monsanto isn't specifically trying to LITERALLY poison Hatians (no profit in killing you customers/wage slaves) instead they're trying to impose themselves on the devistated Haitian economy in an attempt to push out the farmers cultivating natural creole seeds. They're hoping that the Hatians will be so desperate they won't care and take Monsanto's poisoned pill...Luckily, they guessed wrong.

It is quite likely that this is an attempt to create a new market for their seeds, yes. That doesn't mean that the vitriol on the internet against Monsanto isn't exaggerated and full of errors. I don't buy that their use of pesticides is any more cause for alarm than farming practices from all over the world. I also haven't seen any data that would lead me to believe that the IFPRI report is incorrect, which means that the Indian suicides have not increased since Monsanto introduced Bt cotton.

Originally Posted by Despanan

Honestly Ren, I'm surprised at you, if you read the way the folks on the monsanto blog are responding, it's very clear (from a marketing perspective) that they're trying to hide something.

I'm not Renatus. I also never claimed that Monsanto aren't hiding anything. What I am saying is that it seems there is a tendency to take statements from blogs and articles as truth when they have no more substance (and less in many cases) than Monsanto's website.

Originally Posted by Despanan

A company that's got nothing to hide isn't going to talk about the classification and the like. It's a very basic sales tactic: don't lie but present true facts that imply the wrong conclusion.

Many websites against Monsanto are guilty of the same. I'm not simply reading and repeating what Monsanto say as you seem to be implying. I read the links that you and Saya posted, I read other websites denouncing hybrid seeds, I also read Monsanto's website and the links that they provided, as well others such as this.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Sorry I may not have been clear, I wasn't disputing water or fertiliser, just pesticide. The hybrids are supposed to require less of that. And yeah, they seem to be a trade off of reproductive ability and high price against yield.

Supposed to, and yet they come previously treated with it, so they don't even have a choice if they want thiram or not, despite the fact they might not have the safetly equipment for it, and Monsanto sells pesticides, its in their best interest that the seeds aren't that robust.

You'd need to know how much pesticide the Monsanto seeds require, and compare that to how much pesticide is currently used in Haiti to arrive at that conclusion. Depending on the seed and local pests, the hybrid seeds might need less treating than the standard ones.

It doesn't actually say that there, it provides a value for the mass/area of pesticides in Haiti, but not any value to compare it to:



I wouldn't be surprised if you were correct though, if they don't have much money it would make sense that they use less fertiliser.

Sorry, read the chart wrong, but in comparison to Canada:

http://earthtrends.wri.org/pdf_libra...gr_cou_124.pdf

Canada on average uses 633 kg of pesticides per ha of cropland, compared to Haiti's 23, and 60% of our food is GMO.

I don't know at what point water becomes unsuitable for agriculture, but it can be dirtier than drinking water and still be safe right? But still, seems like a more legitimate concern than the pesticides to me.

When there's a sewage problem, its a problem for crops as well. Gray water can be used for crops, but the problem is that with the sewage leakage into the water, it increases contamination of e.coli, salmonella, and other unpleasantness that we get from fecal contamination and its how cholera is spreading. Usually when our tomatoes get salmonella or e.coli its because fecal matter contaminated the water that it absorbed while growing.

I anticipate a "But we use manure for fertilizer" question, but commercial feces fertilizers are usually treated to kill the bacteria.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Saya

Supposed to, and yet they come previously treated with it, so they don't even have a choice if they want thiram or not, despite the fact they might not have the safetly equipment for it, and Monsanto sells pesticides, its in their best interest that the seeds aren't that robust.

I would hope they have gloves and overalls if they already use pesticides, it's likely that all of them are at least slightly toxic.

Originally Posted by Saya

Sorry, read the chart wrong, but in comparison to Canada:

http://earthtrends.wri.org/pdf_libra...gr_cou_124.pdf

Canada on average uses 633 kg of pesticides per ha of cropland, compared to Haiti's 23, and 60% of our food is GMO.

Ah ok. So 28 times more pesticide per unit area, and 6 times more yield per unit area in Canada. Obviously the yield is affected by far more than just pesticide but that's still not sounding good. Neither is the water situation.


Have you seen any recent news on the donation? That Monsanto blog said the first shipment arrived mid... May? I think. It also said that would mean it was in time for the next growing season so the plants should have grown by now. Did they burn all the seed? If they didn't, was there enough water etc? I searched briefly earlier but couldn't find anything which seems a little odd.

[Saya]

You're right, there isn't much being said now. Some websites are saying they were all burned, none was planted, but sadly it doesn't look like mainstream media picked up on it at all.

http://www.peopleofcolororganize.com...nto-aid-seeds/

[sgtslaughter]

If governments should fear its people, corporations and big business should fear its consumers and workers.

[sgtslaughter]

Franklin Grahm needs to die. Fuck trying to reason with him. Light his bigoted ass on fire.