To Girls

[Underwater Ophelia]

Also, dressing in such a way that is deliberately and solely to attract men isn't really taking advantage of being liberated. It's going backwards.

[KontanKarite]

I would imagine that what one chooses to do while being completely aware of their actions is in fact being pretty liberated. I don't think feminism is based in the ethos that the female nation shun the male standards for yet another peripheral set of standards that the gender imposes on themselves.

How exactly is doing what Ophelia just said or doing what the video just said an act of feminism at all?

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

I would imagine that what one chooses to do while being completely aware of their actions is in fact being pretty liberated. I don't think feminism is based in the ethos that the female nation shun the male standards for yet another peripheral set of standards that the gender imposes on themselves.

How exactly is doing what Ophelia just said or doing what the video just said an act of feminism at all?

I'll be honest; I'm not sure. Being a woman, though, it gives me a bad feeling. I mean, yes, it is liberated in the sense that chicks are doing what they want, but if it's a means to an end, and the end is sexist/backwards, then it's not a good thing (or a feminist thing.). Please know, I'm not saying men are the bad guy. It's too far ahead in the game for men to be the bad guy in most situations.

[ape descendant]

Originally Posted by OnyxBat

Some women are just imbracing the fact that they get to show skin and not wear bloomer with floor length skirts.

Then again, we can if we want to. Bloomers can be sexy...

[OnyxBat]

true (I <3 my black bloomers), it depends on the type of women.

[CuckooTuli]

Originally Posted by ape descendant

Some of us LIKE going out in full makeup at 10AM...

You know, I'm not judging or anything, but I don't understand people who say they honestly enjoy going around done up to the nines all the time. I find putting on make-up SO fucking boring, and get frustrated if I can't rub or touch my face over the day. The eyes, I deal with, because I do wear mascara (coward, I know). And I do sometimes enjoy getting all sexed up for occasions and all, but I can't say I actually ENJOY any part of the process in my everyday life. Part laziness, part waking up too hungover or tired to bother 3 or 4 days a week (I'm awful for staying up late for no reason), but it's something I'll never get.

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

I'll be honest; I'm not sure. Being a woman, though, it gives me a bad feeling. I mean, yes, it is liberated in the sense that chicks are doing what they want, but if it's a means to an end, and the end is sexist/backwards, then it's not a good thing (or a feminist thing.). Please know, I'm not saying men are the bad guy. It's too far ahead in the game for men to be the bad guy in most situations.

Personally, I think a lot of women lie to themselves about what they find empowering. The truth is women are just as culpable as men, if not more so, in the perpetuation of the idea that they're - well, if not lesser, then radically different in an essentialist sense.

[OnyxBat]

I personally like being done up, I dont really sport the nartural all that well. Once you get the hang of it then it becomes so normal that you wont even notice when you are putting it on (trust me ever 6 o'clock in the morrning this is what i've been doing for the past three years). Now the rubbing part your right it does get annoying but it depends on the brand of make up.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

I'll be honest; I'm not sure. Being a woman, though, it gives me a bad feeling. I mean, yes, it is liberated in the sense that chicks are doing what they want, but if it's a means to an end, and the end is sexist/backwards, then it's not a good thing (or a feminist thing.). Please know, I'm not saying men are the bad guy. It's too far ahead in the game for men to be the bad guy in most situations.

Nah, I don't think it's about the whole men being badguys either. I do think feminism is only relevant by today's standards in the classical since that feminism = women's solidarity for a more egalitarian social structure.

But to cleave to women's standards of a woman in exchange for men's standards of a woman? It still affects individual identity.

Hence the question: As a woman or hell, even a man, who are we really beholden to? Male standards, female standards, or our individual standards?

[Saya]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

Nah, I don't think it's about the whole men being badguys either. I do think feminism is only relevant by today's standards in the classical since that feminism = women's solidarity for a more egalitarian social structure.

But to cleave to women's standards of a woman in exchange for men's standards of a woman? It still affects individual identity.

Hence the question: As a woman or hell, even a man, who are we really beholden to? Male standards, female standards, or our individual standards?

I think what Ophie is saying is if you're dressing a certain way solely to attract men, therefore holding your perception of what other people's standards are as your own, on a gendered basis. You can say its liberating in a "oh, I'm taking advantage of the fact that I can now show my ankles", but you can also argue its "I'm convicing myself I'm liberating myself while just selling myself out to a standard that isn't my own."

Its fine to dress however way you want, but I do think its sad when women feel they should dress "slutty" because otherwise they won't attract men, as you say its not then their own individual standard.

Feminism has nothing to do with replacing a woman's standard with men's standards, at the heart of it, the message is that no matter what your gender, you're a person first. What's between your legs is no one else's business and no one has no business telling you that you should be a certain way because of it.

It is way more relevant that just women uniting to get other people equality because we supposedly already have it, its a very gendered world. I could get into the wage gap, reproductive rights, sexual assault rates, the glass ceiling and sticky floor, as the big examples. But even in our everyday choices we may have ideas we may not even realize that are sexist or that we impose on ourselves according to our gender without even thinking about it.

And again I must stress its not about women vs men, men suffer from sexism too, I would argue that women suffer from sexism in a more obvious way but we by no means have a monopoly of it. We as a culture have created gender expectations, and women can be just as sexist as men can be.

[ape descendant]

Originally Posted by CuckooTuli

You know, I'm not judging or anything, but I don't understand people who say they honestly enjoy going around done up to the nines all the time. I find putting on make-up SO fucking boring, and get frustrated if I can't rub or touch my face over the day. The eyes, I deal with, because I do wear mascara (coward, I know). And I do sometimes enjoy getting all sexed up for occasions and all, but I can't say I actually ENJOY any part of the process in my everyday life. Part laziness, part waking up too hungover or tired to bother 3 or 4 days a week (I'm awful for staying up late for no reason), but it's something I'll never get.



Personally, I think a lot of women lie to themselves about what they find empowering. The truth is women are just as culpable as men, if not more so, in the perpetuation of the idea that they're - well, if not lesser, then radically different in an essentialist sense.

I don't get being dressed up all the time myself.. but damnit.. some times the most exciting place to go, is the grocery store... and its so much fun to be a little whimsical, especially in the morning.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by Saya

I think what Ophie is saying is if you're dressing a certain way solely to attract men, therefore holding your perception of what other people's standards are as your own, on a gendered basis. You can say its liberating in a "oh, I'm taking advantage of the fact that I can now show my ankles", but you can also argue its "I'm convicing myself I'm liberating myself while just selling myself out to a standard that isn't my own."

Its fine to dress however way you want, but I do think its sad when women feel they should dress "slutty" because otherwise they won't attract men, as you say its not then their own individual standard.

Feminism has nothing to do with replacing a woman's standard with men's standards, at the heart of it, the message is that no matter what your gender, you're a person first. What's between your legs is no one else's business and no one has no business telling you that you should be a certain way because of it.

It is way more relevant that just women uniting to get other people equality because we supposedly already have it, its a very gendered world. I could get into the wage gap, reproductive rights, sexual assault rates, the glass ceiling and sticky floor, as the big examples. But even in our everyday choices we may have ideas we may not even realize that are sexist or that we impose on ourselves according to our gender without even thinking about it.

And again I must stress its not about women vs men, men suffer from sexism too, I would argue that women suffer from sexism in a more obvious way but we by no means have a monopoly of it. We as a culture have created gender expectations, and women can be just as sexist as men can be.

All of which I agree with and all of which I've already touched up on; just not as specific.

Then again, we go back to a problem with the video. The woman is railing against those that dress as hussies. My qualm is that she doesn't have to do that. She also doesn't have any reasonable right to demand others to follow her lead and by the virtue of what other women are doing as individuals, why should she care if those women are attracting repellant men that she herself wouldn't indulge in? At it's worst, she's demanding the nation of women to adhere to her standards of class so that the nation of men would shape up and be more gentlemanly, implying that men have no control over their actions or what they actually deem as attractive. That somehow, men's behavior is not their own but a programmed response to their visual stimuli towards women. At its best, it's just another girl who's mad because all the hot sluts are getting all the great dick and she's not getting as much attention because she's too conservative to show a little extra skin.

TL;DR:

Lady is whining that other women dress more provocatively to attract the attention of men that she wouldn't have anything to do with anyway.

I really do not understand how other girls have to be responsible with how this one feels about dressing slutty.

[Saya]

And you're absolutely right, I was just saying it is sad when it is the case that women, or anybody really, dresses such a way because really they have low self esteem and think its the only way they're ever going to be loveeeed. Which is beside the point of the video I guess but Ophie was right.

See? You're secretly a feminist.

[KontanKarite]

Wait... I said I wasn't a feminist? When did I write that?

Nah, it's more likely that I'm a feminist that doesn't use it as a means of identity or really have much reason to talk about feminism as the movement. I just identify that a person is a person and the best I can ever hope for from others is self awareness and of course strive to be as self aware as possible on my end.

[Saya]

I got the impression a few months back when you said feminism is stupid. I never forget!

[Versus]

Feminism is stupid when there is nothing to be feminist about.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by Saya

I got the impression a few months back when you said feminism is stupid. I never forget!

As a means of identity, yeah. It's pretty fucktarded. I'm kind of the guy who accepts it, uses it, and doesn't make a big deal about it.

I have feminist ideals, but I wouldn't say that it's something that defines me as a person.

[Versus]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

As a means of identity, yeah. It's pretty fucktarded. I'm kind of the guy who accepts it, uses it, and doesn't make a big deal about it.

I have feminist ideals, but I wouldn't say that it's something that defines me as a person.

Pro-feminism refers to support of the cause of feminism without implying that the supporter is a member of the feminist movement. The term is most often used in reference to men who are actively supportive of feminism and of efforts to bring about gender equality. A number of pro-feminist men are involved in political activism, most often in the areas of women's rights and violence against women.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro-feminism

[KontanKarite]

Versus, what are you doing? I said I have feminist ideals and adhere to them. You don't see me actively supporting the movement. I don't go to rallies or even go out of my way to push the feminist agenda. I just don't support or agree with ideals that are contrary to what feminism represents. I don't think that's nearly enough to qualify someone as a feminist.

[Versus]

Only read the first sentence, then? The term is not exclusive to people who actively support feminism. It is used to describe people who support feminism (in any capacity, active or passive), but do not identify as any particular kind of feminist. Is that inaccurate to describe your thoughts?

But anyway, I just thought it was interesting and decided to share.

[KontanKarite]

Why you gotta be bustin' my balls, dude? My balls man... my balls.

[Versus]

Ma bizzle.

[Pineapple_Juice]

Why does Snoop Dogg carry an umbrella?



FO DRIZZLE.

[ape descendant]

... my balls... yer breakin 'em...

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by Saya

And you're absolutely right, I was just saying it is sad when it is the case that women, or anybody really, dresses such a way because really they have low self esteem and think its the only way they're ever going to be loveeeed. Which is beside the point of the video I guess but Ophie was right.

See? You're secretly a feminist.

Wait... I'm actually confused. How can Ophelia and I both be right? Our points aren't the same.

The problem: Woman dresses slutty to attract men

Solution A: This is not feminism, this is going backwards.

Solution B: In the spirit of feminism; how is a scantily clad woman responsible for other women?

My solution is more of a question because I think my definition of feminism is a bit different because it's skewed by my ideas of personal self awareness and individual expression.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

Wait... I'm actually confused. How can Ophelia and I both be right? Our points aren't the same.

The problem: Woman dresses slutty to attract men

Solution A: This is not feminism, this is going backwards.

Solution B: In the spirit of feminism; how is a scantily clad woman responsible for other women?

My solution is more of a question because I think my definition of feminism is a bit different because it's skewed by my ideas of personal self awareness and individual expression.

Now there's a delayed reaction.

Her first response was that it was dumb to care. Her second response does agree with your ideas of individual expression, that when a woman dresses such a way for the reason of living up to what she believes is the male gaze, her standards aren't truly her own. This isn't feminism or individual self expression.

Having said that, it does not do to assume that thats the only reason why women ever dress that way and I know Ophelia would never make the claim that women are responsible for each other by dressing in such ways. We're individual people, not a part of a gender union. They have their reasons and its really none of my business what those reasons are unless they tell me, and if the reason was the disempowering reason, I still wouldn't judge or rant on a video on how stupid these women are. In the end if they're grown adults, I'd treat them like grown adults.