France and the EU

illuminatti · 05-31-2005, 06:47 AM

I turned on the TV and heard in the news about France's most population being against something in the European Union ( a result of a national vote). I didn't really hear much more because then they started showing the damn sport-news.
I havn't had any time to look up more about it so i was just wondering if anyone here knew anything...

CptSternn · 05-31-2005, 06:23 PM

Ill - The EU (European Union) is the new United States. All these member countries here are now merging together economically and politically.

They wrote a constitution, like the US Constitution, and all member states have to ratify it, like the US States did to their constitution. And like the original US Constitution, there are always hold outs, and in this case, a state that wants to make a few changes.

We are already merged economically. I mean, the Euro is now the official form of currency across Europe, which rocks as no more converting money while moving around. We also can travel from country to country without a passport or any ID. We a rapidly becoming the next United States. Oh, and since we all have state managed healthcare, most places its free, and if you go to another country with your ID to prove your a citizen in a member country you get free healthcare there as well.

Oh yeah, we also can work in any member country without having to get a visa or fill out paperwork, as long as we have our ID.

They say France rejecting the first constitutio is a setback, but if all the others retify it, they will have to as well. The only country fighting it really is Britian, who has still yet to adopt the Euro. They want to remain their own country, as they still think they are better than the rest of Europe and use 9/11 as an excuse to require work visas and all kinds of background checks.

Slán

Asurai · 06-01-2005, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CptSternn

They wrote a constitution, like the US Constitution

Except that it's over five hundred pages long and basically enforces an oligarchy in the form of rule-by-bureaucrats.

It's really funny that France voted no. They were one of the biggest proponents of the merger... at least, France's leaders were, though it seems that the people had other plans.

And Merry ol' England is going to decline. Without Britain and France, the EU will be like the original United States, minus New York and Virginia.

illuminatti · 06-01-2005, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Ill - The EU (European Union) is the new United States. All these member countries here are now merging together economically and politically.

Slán

lol. I KNOW what the EU is. I live in Europe myself.
As to the comparasson with the USA...I don't know if it's quite right.

What I think is interesting, is that France has decided to maybe back out. As for Britain, i wonder how long they will be refusing.

I would like to know more details about the France thing and what the people here think.

And also, there is the subject of Turkey...should it be in the EU or not. The government wants it...but most of the population doesn't. And as to the other European countries, they are quite undecided about it too. Muslimphobia is reason of course (bullshit though) and another reason are the work places, which "may all be confiscated by the turks".

CptSternn · 06-01-2005, 09:51 AM

Illy - France was pushing the anti-agreement platform as they didn't like the language about the miltary stuff. MANY European Nations are getting worried about that language, and I myself think it needs to be re-written - the part about ALL member states must have a standing army of a certain size and must put soldiers in to conflicts if one nation starts a conflict. We don't need THAT in the constitution, just the civil rights, and basic stuff, military stuff should be outside the constitution. Either way, the EU is still moving forward, just without a consitution standing. There are enough laws governining everyone in place now, so it's not like anarchy is going to break out, unlike some of the media sources (CNN) seem to be spewing on the news.

Slán

WolfMoon · 06-01-2005, 10:28 AM

So you're saying that they should be able to have 'rights' they aren't willing to fight for? I don't see any problem with it stating that they need an army, it's just common sense. I thought every country already had an army or military of some kind though?

CptSternn · 06-01-2005, 10:55 AM

It's not having an army, its having a mandatory sized army. It would force some smaller countries to have a law like israel where all youths must do a few years in the army due to the small populations. It also specifies certain types of equipment, most of which are manufactured in the United States. You can thank the brits for adding that in.

Slán

Asurai · 06-01-2005, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Either way, the EU is still moving forward, just without a consitution standing. There are enough laws governining everyone in place now,

Meaning, even if the people of Europe oppose it, they must still submit to their rightful, we-know-better-than-you masters.

In other news, the Dutch just voted 'no' on the constitution. So now, France, Britain, and the Netherlands are out.

CptSternn · 06-01-2005, 04:45 PM

You KNEW the Dutch weren't going to ratafy it! I mean, they could lose their weed and hookers! And lets be serious here for one second, Amsterdam isn't shite without weed and hookers. Have you ever been there sober during the day? It's not the cultural mecca without those nice wee additions.

Slán

Morbideus · 06-01-2005, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CptSternn

You KNEW the Dutch weren't going to ratafy it! I mean, they could lose their weed and hookers! And lets be serious here for one second, Amsterdam isn't shite without weed and hookers.
Slán

Imagine what that would do to their tourist industry? It would fuck them! Hell, without that stuff, I wouldn't go. :wink:

Of course Brittain will hold out, if they join in fully, that would chap the ass of Mr."you're either with US or against US- two terms -mandate" Bush. As mis-management makes US no longer the most powerful or rich country in the World, it will be in the best interest of Britain to drop US and join in. It's only a matter of time.

Is there anywhere online to read a copy of the proposed EU constitution? IMO the entire EU concept sounds GREAT, I hope it really works out. I am one of those UN Americans who thinks a One World Gov. would be a GOOD thing...

Granny-like_the_apple · 06-01-2005, 11:01 PM

Here ya go, knock yourself out. It's over 300 pages long. Sheesh. http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/bsp...00086.en04.pdf

AlKilyu · 06-01-2005, 11:37 PM

Color me fucking shocked France has an issue with arming themselves. Why do that when others will bail you out when you get invaded, or lose the foothold your had on a country after invading it ala Vietnam.

I say fuck it too. Those who join to fight just causes will have their homelands safe, and access to rebuilding contracts. Those who don't are on their own.

Pretty simple.

CptSternn · 06-02-2005, 08:09 AM

Ally - thats funny considering your own consitution says nothing about mandatory armament. I mean, if the EU consitution said the nations have the right to bear arms, that would be lovely.

It basically says though, they must purchase fighters from Lockheed, m16's from Colt, and various other provisions along those lines.

Don't remember the framers of your constitution trying to say the Minutemen had to carry Winchest rifles mandatory, and they could only be bought through Winchester Arms.

Slán

Morbideus · 06-02-2005, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CptSternn

It basically says though, they must purchase fighters from Lockheed, m16's from Colt, and various other provisions along those lines.
Slán

It sounds like you were right on in likening it to another U.S. :lol:

Morbideus · 06-02-2005, 09:46 PM

Ah yes, and thanks granny for the link, this may take a while.... when do the Cliff's Notes come out?

illuminatti · 06-03-2005, 05:36 AM

What I think is that a country can't agree and then just back out becuase they decided that they don't like something. Only because of the army problem... The EU isn't only about the army and I think that compromises could be found. The USA has to have an opposing power, because otherwise they can do whatever they fucking want and no one will be strong enought to say STOP. In the cold war there was at least Russia to do this, and now the country has completely fallen and it will take a while before it strengthens.
The EUs constitution may have some bullshit in it, but it doesn't mean that now, when they have gone so far, everone can just say, "Well, you know what guys, I don't think i like this idea after all. Bye-bye". France used a clever method: asking the people. Well, damn it, of course many people won't be happy with being in the EU. How many of those voters have actually READ the constitution? All they know about it is the selected and exagerated stuff from the news. And many patriots would definately be against uniting themselves with other countries, especially in France, the French being very serious about preserving their culture and "Frenchness".
You can't just lock yourself up in your own little world and only care about ITS prosperity. The outside world needs help. As I already said, there must be another power to withstand the US.

CptSternn · 06-03-2005, 06:48 AM

The new EU consitution in IMHO is merely window dressing. We are united economically, we are united politically, we are united culturally. I mean, just because we don't have a piece of paper that signifies the rights we have doesn't mean we don't have those rights. If a member nation did something stupid (ie. something that that UN disapproved of or some human rights violation), either the UN or the WTO could spank them enough to put them back i line. Good thing is, everyone right now is on the same page. The consitution is merely for future new members, like Turkey, that they want to let in but make sure they have the supreme authority to control. I myself don't think it's needed. They should restirct membership to those they think might be a problem, not make a set standard forcing everyone to conform to social norms that are beyond the basic human rights and other commonly accepted tenants of society.

Either way out economy is larger than the states with more population that the states. Since the intorduction of the Euro, the currency has gone from being worth $0.65 to now being worth around $1.40 at any given time (it dropped to $1.38 when France rejected the constitution mainly because of us investors, but has bounced back since them showing that the consitution had little to know effect on the economic aspects).

I mean, in the past 5 years the us economy has lost 3 trillion dollars due to deflation against the euro. This means we have much more buying power, plus unlike the states we run a surplus of exports, not a defict against other nations. Since the euro states are fresh (merely a few years old now), its just a matter of time before it takes hold worldwide.

One of the rumours I have found on a few sites is one reason the us invaded Iraq is that Iraq proposed turning oil prices into Euros (right now all oil barrels are priced in US dollars, even though the members of OPEC don't use US dollars). If this were to happen, Oil prices would drop and rigth along side would be the drop of the US dollar - to a low it couldn't come back from.

Slán

Slán

Asurai · 06-05-2005, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sternn

Either way out economy is larger than the states with more population that the states.

Not entirely accurage. The GDP of the US is higher than the combined GDP of every country participating in the EU. Our economic growth rate is also twice as high (4.4% compared to 2.4%), and the US unemployment rate is about half that of the EU (something like 5% to 9%).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illuminatti

What I think is that a country can't agree and then just back out becuase they decided that they don't like something.

So, a tentative agreement necessitates agreement to all following clauses and regulations, no matter what?

Quote:

The USA has to have an opposing power, because otherwise they can do whatever they fucking want and no one will be strong enought to say STOP. In the cold war there was at least Russia to do this, and now the country has completely fallen and it will take a while before it strengthens.

Wait. Russia was a good thing? I have 100,000,000 people, purged and murdered by the Soviets, who disagree. And we don't listen when dictatorships like the Soviets say "Stop!"

AlKilyu · 06-05-2005, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asurai

Quote:

The USA has to have an opposing power, because otherwise they can do whatever they fucking want and no one will be strong enought to say STOP. In the cold war there was at least Russia to do this, and now the country has completely fallen and it will take a while before it strengthens.

Wait. Russia was a good thing? I have 100,000,000 people, purged and murdered by the Soviets, who disagree. And we don't listen when dictatorships like the Soviets say "Stop!"

Yeah that caught me by surprise too. Surprised at the lack of thought put into that, it's blatent ignorance. Many people say Stalin was worse than Hitler, and judging by your comment methinks you probably don't even know who he was. At any rate, since he was able to get on the net and post that, surely he has access to other information, like what Soviet Russia actually did during the Cold War.

CptSternn · 06-07-2005, 08:42 AM

Don't worry about looking up history on soviet russia - just look at modern america and you can see the big brother society in action.

AlKilyu · 06-07-2005, 11:16 AM

That made no sense. What a canned response.

I am almost embarrassed for you.

Almost.

Binkie · 06-07-2005, 11:44 AM

Heh. That was most certainly a hallow and uneducated attempt to draw a parallel in what? A single sentence?

Guess you can't expect some people to stay on topic.

AlKilyu · 06-07-2005, 12:03 PM

Yeah...only extreme liberals will compare someone they don't like to someone who murdered millions.

"Hitler!"

"Communist!"

"Facist!"

'scrazy. Those insults are 60 years old.

CptSternn · 06-07-2005, 02:21 PM

I could list example after example ranging from the Total Information Awareness database system, to the CCTV systems being setup in every major city, to the citizen corps (i.e. Stasi), to the loss of most every right listed in the bill of rights, but that would be off topic.

Start a new thread if you want, but we are discussing the EU Constitution here.

Slán

Granny-like_the_apple · 06-07-2005, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Don't worry about looking up history on soviet russia - just look at modern america and you can see the big brother society in action.

Don't study an important part of world history because there's no difference between Russia then and America now? Uh, no.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlKilyu

Yeah...only extreme liberals will compare someone they don't like to someone who murdered millions.

Hah, so not true.