So, I was reading the 'Jesus Saves' thread...

[Paigeybobert]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

I also feel grateful of the simple quality of being and believe in Pirsig's metaphysics of quality.
That doesn't make me a pagan; it makes me a human.

Marry me, Jillian.

[honeythorn]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

I also feel grateful of the simple quality of being and believe in Pirsig's metaphysics of quality.
That doesn't make me a pagan; it makes me a human.

The way in which I give my thanks, the deity names I speak ( when I speak them ) , the rites I choose to do. They are what makes me a pagan. That and the aforementioned attribution of deity to the earth and the natural world. Many modern pagans look to how deity was originally " worshipped " ( I am hesitant of that word ), the rites and rituals, the words and names used, and base their practices on that. You could say it was part faith and part historical revival. Either way I feel there is a higher " force " and it feels appropriate to me, to connect with that through paganism and as much of the old ways as I am able.

Christians give their thanks and prayers to God in a church. Different denominations of Christianity do it in different ways. Muslims give their thanks and devotions to Allah in a Mosque, Jews give theirs in a Synagogue and so on and so forth . Some people do it in groups, others alone .

All these faiths give their own thanks accompanied with the various rituals and words, in their own ways to their own deities.

All that differs is the names of deity, the number , the various ways of "connecting" .

You say you feel grateful for simply being? great. You don't feel the need to give your gratitude to anything other than perhaps biology and just the plain fact that you exist. That is your way of doing things. You feel it and move on with life. I do the same, just in a different way.

[AngelikDemonik]

Why does it matter to you what religion a person follows?

[cradle]

It matters because the other religions followers want the other people to follow their religion. I guess they try to save them from hell?
But it's hard to convert anyone with solid belief.

[Delicate_Torture]

Originally Posted by Mir

He converted because that was his only way out. He was by NO means a real believer. There were just too many to throw to the Lions. The lions can only eat so many.

NEEDS MORE LIONS!!

But seriously.. I grew up in a very non-spiritual household and then became a Christian as an early adult. I spent 10+ years as a very committed Christian to the extent that I went to Bible College and obtained a Preliminary degree in Theology. I found that the more I came to know about God and the Divine, the more that I was finding Christianity limiting the work of the Divine in my own life. I didn't so much 'fall away' from Christianity as I grew through it. I have a very personal and close relationship with the Divine, who I recognise has more than one facet to it's being and more than one name.

I am disciplined in my ritual practice and am often poked by Pagans about this fact, being criticised for being 'locked into' such ideas and not having freedom in my worship. They don't tend to understand that I find that freedom through the discipline of hard work. Chopping wood and bringing water, the Zen Buddhists would say. I've been hassled by both Pagans and Christians about my beliefs at various times and the way I figure it is that if I'm not your Goddess or your worshiper then my spirituality has nothing to do with you until I invite you to be a part of it.

[honeythorn]

Originally Posted by Delicate_Torture

the way I figure it is that if I'm not your Goddess or your worshiper then my spirituality has nothing to do with you until I invite you to be a part of it.

This I very much agree with. What I believe is personal in the sense that I am under no obligation to tell anyone about it, or " preach " in any sense of the word. If people ask me nicely I will tell them. But otherwise I keep my trap shut as it isn't anyone else's business. I really cannot stand proselytism.

Good to see you back Delicate

[AngelikDemonik]

Originally Posted by cradle

It matters because the other religions followers want the other people to follow their religion. I guess they try to save them from hell?
But it's hard to convert anyone with solid belief.

Really now? I've never cared what religion my friends, family, and strangers followed, as it's none of my business, and I've never forced what I believed onto anyone.

Don't stereotype ALL followers of religion like that. There are douchebags in EVERY religion, race, subculture, and country.

[Delicate_Torture]

Originally Posted by honeythorn

Good to see you back Delicate

Thank yee. So far I'm glad to be back.. although, I've only been here for an hour so far. :P

[Lapin]

You see all of this? All of these posts?

This is why we don't have a religious section. I'd just like to point that out to the people who actually wanted one.

Discussion of religion always ends bad. No one is unbiased. Not even my Protestant-hating self.

[gothicusmaximus]

Originally Posted by honeythorn

Christians give their thanks and prayers to God in a church. Different denominations of Christianity do it in different ways. Muslims give their thanks and devotions to Allah in a Mosque, Jews give theirs in a Synagogue and so on and so forth . Some people do it in groups, others alone .

All these faiths give their own thanks accompanied with the various rituals and words, in their own ways to their own deities.

All that differs is the names of deity, the number , the various ways of "connecting" .

That's an interesting way of looking at it. However, why do you feel that Pagan rites are the best way to worship this force? Why do they seem more appropriate to you than the Jewish, Christian and Muslim traditions? They just do, for a reason you can't explain?

Originally Posted by d_t

I have a very personal and close relationship with the Divine, who I recognise has more than one facet to it's being and more than one name.

You seem to maintain a theism that you've defined on your own terms, through personal experience and understanding, which process I can totally understand. What I'm asking is why certain people see sets of traditions, organized religions- Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Pagan faiths, etc- and pick one as the 'right' way to worship god.

Discussion of religion always ends bad. No one is unbiased. Not even my Protestant-hating self.

What do you consider 'bad'? People arguing on the internet in a relatively civil manner? You haven't been around the www much, have you?

[Mir]

Originally Posted by Tha Duckman

You don't KNOW, man! You weren't THERE, man!

To me, that post = [/thread] with respect to Romans/Jesus.

[gothicusmaximus]

Originally Posted by Mir

To me, that post = [/thread] with respect to Romans/Jesus.

People keep forgetting that I'm a 3 Million Year old Nosferatu King.

[Mir]

But you must have been hibernating for long periods of time as well, surely!

[Bete Noire]

Originally Posted by honeythorn

I didn't say I " know " I believe. I would never claim to know.

It's incredible how many people don't see a difference. They know God exists, or they know there is no God. And they are completely intolerant and have no idea how anyone can believe something different.

Unfortunately a great number of the these people (In my experience) then take the step of "I know something you don't, therefore I am a cleverer/better/whatever person."

Then I get pissed off.

[Tha Duckman]

I don't believe, but if I see infallible proof, like God appearing right in front of me and taking me on a magical journey to Heaven, so on so forth, then I'll believe.

Probably won't like him any better, but oh well.

[Lapin]

You'd probably chalk it up to an interesting drug trip though Duckie, so such a Dante-esque journey would be lost on you.

[Tha Duckman]

Whatever it was, I'd ask for more of it!

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Bete Noire

It's incredible how many people don't see a difference. They know God exists, or they know there is no God.

Then what are you expecting?
"Oh, I don't know what I believe, I just believe it because I like to believe it even though all evidence points out otherwise but that's why I don't say I know, I just believe. Such things as facts don't apply to me because I just believe."

[Valrys]

I can't remember where the hell I heard this quote, but it seems fitting here, so I'll remember it best I can:
"Religion is a candle inside a multicoloured lamp. Everyone looks through a different colour at the candle, but the candle is always there."

I've met a few very annoying extremest Christians who just annoyed me and made me laugh, and then I know a couple of fundamentalist Christians who are very nice people.

So, I ignore religion and look at people on a person to person basis.

Although

Originally Posted by Tha Duckman

All religions are pretty retarded.

Quoted for Truth.

[Tha Duckman]

I got some kick ass quotes.

[KontanKarite]

Honestly, I think the meat of it probably has something to do with the existence or chance of Hell existing for most everyone.

The thing with religion is that for the most part, all of them are ridiculous on some degree. But from what I understand, Christianity seems to have the worst outcome for those who do not follow and they are the loudest and proudest of such a bold claim.

I don't exactly mind religion so much, but I do mind restricting a person's behavior or actions based on nothing more than a promise of ever lasting torment. Obedience through fear, not love. THAT'S some bullshit.

But this thread has nothing to do with actual Christian reasoning.

[Silvara]

Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus

That's an interesting way of looking at it. However, why do you feel that Pagan rites are the best way to worship this force? Why do they seem more appropriate to you than the Jewish, Christian and Muslim traditions? They just do, for a reason you can't explain?

honeythorn never said that being a Pagan, as opposed to a any other form of religion, was the "best" way to worship. She said she felt more connected spiritualy through Paganism, as that is how I feel also.

It seems to me, after everything you have said, that YOU are trying to push Atheism on people, as is Jillian. What makes you any better then a bible pusher then? You are trying to shoot down honeythorn's beliefs by basically saying you think their stupid, she doesnt know what shes talking about, and you dont 'believe' in any of it.

Do you 'KNOW' there is no higher power, or do you 'BELIEVE' there is no higher power? To "know", is to see something as being true, with actual facts. To believe, is to have faith in something.

[HumanePain]

Originally Posted by Zavulon

too bad the Romans couldn't feed those lions with all the christians and eradicated them before they infested the planet with their insipid views and dogma.

Yeah, bring back lion feeding, the sign of enlightened civilization. Let's all of us follow Zavulon's wisdom.
<smirk>

[Zavulon]

Yea Christians are so fucking enlightened... Crusades and Inquisitions....

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Silvara

It seems to me, after everything you have said, that YOU are trying to push Atheism on people, as is Jillian.

Yeah, I never denied it.

What makes you any better then a bible pusher then?

Factual and philosophical backing. I really don't mind bible pushers, except that they're wrong. I most definitely prefer them to the "respect their beliefs" pussies. At least bible pushers know exactly where they stand. The thing is, when directly questioned or confronted, their answers are always lacking and hollow. But so do politically correct people; generally they don't talk about their religion to others fearing they might be wrong.
Fuck, if you discovered the secret of life, would you keep it to yourself just so that other people can believe they already got it right?
Let's take that a step further, and closer to the bible-pusher mentality. If you knew New Guinea would nuke Cincinnati if people in Oregon don't start wearing ADIDAS, would you do nothing about it because "people just might not like wearing ADIDAS?"

Do you 'KNOW' there is no higher power, or do you 'BELIEVE' there is no higher power?

Don't use the same questions for people starting at zero. You cannot disprove a negative. The burden of proof is on the ones that claim something, not the ones that don't.