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Old 02-08-2012, 02:07 PM   #26
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The farms which used to produce cattle would have to be turned over to grain production, and would not have space or facilities for keeping pet cattle.
Yeah, because after we get rid of the industry where most of our grain production goes to, it's logical that we will need even more grain.
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Old 02-08-2012, 02:31 PM   #27
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Are there any real health benefits to eating vegan? I don't know much about that side of it and I'm curious as it's something I've considered as I don't eat a great deal of animal produce as it is and I have been wondering if it's worth me cutting it out altogether. I don't eat dairy products and I eat very little meat so I don't think it's something I'd find too difficult if the health benefits are worth it.
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Old 02-08-2012, 02:54 PM   #28
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Are there any real health benefits to eating vegan? I don't know much about that side of it and I'm curious as it's something I've considered as I don't eat a great deal of animal produce as it is and I have been wondering if it's worth me cutting it out altogether. I don't eat dairy products and I eat very little meat so I don't think it's something I'd find too difficult if the health benefits are worth it.
I don't like selling veganism on health benefits, particularly because you can be vegan and eat nothing but junk food, right? And lots of people define health in different ways, if their cholesterol went down on a vegan diet but they didn't lose weight, they might decide that veganism didn't make them healthy. But according to the ADA vegans are at lower risk for things like heart attacks and cancer, so it depends on how you do it. I have stomach problems that were greatly helped by going vegan, and I was able to gain weight after being underweight all my life, and I'm probably not going to be afflicted with the heart problems my mom has. I could be eating a lot healthier still though, diabetes runs in the family and I have to be careful about that, I still bake a lot of sugary things.
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Old 02-08-2012, 02:58 PM   #29
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Are there any real health benefits to eating vegan? I don't know much about that side of it and I'm curious as it's something I've considered as I don't eat a great deal of animal produce as it is and I have been wondering if it's worth me cutting it out altogether. I don't eat dairy products and I eat very little meat so I don't think it's something I'd find too difficult if the health benefits are worth it.
Like saya said you can be a complete junk food vegan. It happens.

However going vegan helped joint problems that was having, my skin cleared up, and I also lost 30 lbs that were hanging around.
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Old 02-08-2012, 03:00 PM   #30
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Well, cancer, heart problems and diabetes all run in my family. I think, personally, that I have quite a healthy diet as it is, it's just, I eat so little animal produce that I wonder if I should cut it altogether because I don't think I would miss it. My only weakness really in terms of junk stuff is sugary coffee. Other than that, my diet is mostly based round fruits, vegetables, quorn and oats, that kind of thing. I don't eat dairy, I don't eat much meat at all, I maybe have it once a week so I just don't think I'd miss it. Would I need to take suppliments if I did go for a vegan diet or are there ways to compensate for that within my diet?
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Old 02-08-2012, 03:03 PM   #31
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Well, cancer, heart problems and diabetes all run in my family. I think, personally, that I have quite a healthy diet as it is, it's just, I eat so little animal produce that I wonder if I should cut it altogether because I don't think I would miss it. My only weakness really in terms of junk stuff is sugary coffee. Other than that, my diet is mostly based round fruits, vegetables, quorn and oats, that kind of thing. I don't eat dairy, I don't eat much meat at all, I maybe have it once a week so I just don't think I'd miss it. Would I need to take suppliments if I did go for a vegan diet or are there ways to compensate for that within my diet?
B12 isn't found in significant amounts in plant food, so either you take supplements for that or if you drink soy or almond milk, make sure its already supplemented. I take one every few days just because I don't keep track, and I've had to take supplements all my life.
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Old 02-08-2012, 03:06 PM   #32
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I drink soya with added vitamins, that's a normal part of my diet and my vitamin levels are all ok, I know this because they were tested this week.
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Old 02-08-2012, 04:22 PM   #33
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I get almond milk thats fortified with b12. I'm guessing so far so good... because I feel great! MC, you're lucky that you don't like dairy! I had the hardest time breaking up with mr. cheese.
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Old 02-08-2012, 06:12 PM   #34
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See Solumina, this is why we can't have nice things.
I know and I was so hopeful after our initial positive exchange of information

Also I eat meat and I don't apologize for it but even I think that the arguments put forth by the omnis in this thread are full of condensation and are lacking any real substance.
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Old 02-08-2012, 07:03 PM   #35
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I know and I was so hopeful after our initial positive exchange of information

Also I eat meat and I don't apologize for it but even I think that the arguments put forth by the omnis in this thread are full of condensation and are lacking any real substance.
I only wanted to contribute as best I could. Sorry....... Would Colombian coffee straight from Colombia and roasted by the top professionals in the Seattle star bucks headquarters make you feel better? I feel like a Nazi who stomped on a flower grown by a three year old girl and her mother, as they lay next to it staring at the young daughter's cherished accomplishment. Two times in two days. I swear this time of the year always brings out the worst in me.
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Old 02-08-2012, 07:44 PM   #36
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Would Colombian coffee straight from Colombia and roasted by the top professionals in the Seattle star bucks headquarters make you feel better?
I actually only drink shade grown, fair trade coffee as deforestation and slavery are rampant throughout the coffee industry. Don't feel bad if you didn't know that, most people don't.

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I feel like a Nazi who stomped on a flower grown by a three year old girl and her mother, as they lay next to it staring at the young daughter's cherished accomplishment.
Well you don't have to feel that badly but people get hostile towards vegans and typical won't even consider a thing they say unless their argument is flawless (which pretty much no argument grounded in reality can be) and yet when omnis defend their own eating habits they don't hold themselves to the same standard and that bothers me.

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I swear this time of the year always brings out the worst in me.
Me too man, me too.
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Old 02-10-2012, 03:22 AM   #37
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Big Agriculture needs a major overhaul, but most food in Canada and the US goes to feeding livestock. Not everyone is able to buy locally from sustainable farms, but being vegan cuts down on the environmental harm done.

Fruitbat, did a vegan touch you in a bad place or something?
No, I'm noy having a go at Vegans - although it may seem that way. It's more along the lines of where do the people draw the line.

I just like to ask questions. I know Agriculture needs a major overhaul before we destroy the soils that feed us. I just find it interesting that folks who proclaim themselves to be environmentally aware/conscious still wear cotton, drive cars and do activities that destroy the environment.

... But then if I were a vegan and I saw an awesome pair of leather boots in the second hand store, would I buy them - because I'm not really contributing to the suffering of an animal, becuase I could be the second or third owner of hte boots, plus I'd be giving my money to charity, and not supporting a sweatshop, and also I'd be saving myself considerable money by buying the boots secondhand, AND since i only buy shoes when I'm in need of them, I'm not really supporting the materalism of the world - but then I'm buying leather, and even though leather shoes may last longer than the artificial leather ones, meaning that i don't have to buy so many pairs, thereby reducing my consumption and the amount of shoes I put into landfill, is it a good thing I buy the boots?

Decisions, decisions.
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Old 02-10-2012, 03:24 AM   #38
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I personally try to buy local when it comes to produce, but I can't always do it... and I really dislike when ppl, especially those who aren't doing anything to help out the planet...point fingers at those who try to do what they can.
Oh honey, I really hope you aren't pointing that finger of judgement my way, because you can just wag that finger somewhere else.

At least you'll never have to worry about going to the gym - you're always jumping to conclusions
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Old 02-10-2012, 03:40 AM   #39
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I'd like to point out that many farms can't just chose to suddenly start growing grains instead of animals.


Look to the large cattle stations in outback Australia. The soil is too poor to grow grains, the rainfall too irregular. So while it looks like you just take that cow out of that paddock and stick in some grain, the soil won't let you.

Plus animals can have long and useful lives in the correct farming system. I point my finger towards Permaculture - where you use chickens as tractors to get rid of weeds before planting.
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Old 02-10-2012, 07:27 AM   #40
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I just like to ask questions. I know Agriculture needs a major overhaul before we destroy the soils that feed us. I just find it interesting that folks who proclaim themselves to be environmentally aware/conscious still wear cotton, drive cars and do activities that destroy the environment.
And I think that makes you a bit of a bitch. Most people have to be involved in systems of oppression, animal, human, environmental. Not everyone can afford eco friendly fair trade things. Most people have to get by. Its like saying if you're against r@pe, you shouldn't have a computer because the minerals inside might have come from the DRC. And its probably true, but I'm not going to give up fighting sexual assault because someone's a dick and thinks that invalidates what I do. As my Chinese prof used to say after telling us the horrible things Wal Mart has done to Chinese workers, "I know the competition isn't great either, but that doesn't mean you don't try and keep buying from the worst of the worst."
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Old 02-10-2012, 10:54 AM   #41
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Fruitbat, what you're doing is called the Nirvana fallacy.
Let's invert in in your case. I bet something you own was made by labor at some point in the production process that constituted slavery.
Are you then not against slavery? I find it interesting that you would be of the opinion that there are basic human rights and I'd guess you consider yourself an ethical person, yet you walk around with electronics.
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You fucking people [war veterans] are only a step below entitled rich kids, the only difference being you had to do and witness horrible things, instead of being given everything.
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Old 02-10-2012, 11:30 AM   #42
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Thumbs down

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Oh honey, I really hope you aren't pointing that finger of judgement my way, because you can just wag that finger somewhere else.

At least you'll never have to worry about going to the gym - you're always jumping to conclusions
Why so defensive?
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Old 02-10-2012, 10:46 PM   #43
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So what about the artifical materials used to make vegan boots? Don't they do damage with their lifecycle?

And I'd assume that vegans wouldn't wear substances like cotton - because the farming of cotton does a lot of environmental damage (in Aust anyway). But then too does rice growing in australia (we don't have the water). Hemp is the alternative.

And what about the acres of monocropping in the US? That's not at all healthy for the environment.


So surely vegans would also have to be careful to buy products that came from ecologically sustainable farms? But then you also have to consider food miles?
Here you go Saya, I'll answer the questions for you since google doesn't really provide the answers.

Indeed some materials used to make vegan footware may damage the environment, but then I chose to be particular in what materials I choose for my shoes. Currently, my budget only stretches far enough to buy xxyy shoes. And I do maintain my shoes and wear them for years.

Cotton, in general is not a good crop because of the water use and chemicals used in the growing and manufacturing process. Alternatives to cotton are hemp and bamboo, and the purchase of organically grown products are preferred. But as I've said before my budget won't stretch that far, so I purchase a lot of my clothes in thriftstores.

Yes the agricultural system does need to be overhauled and I support local farmers by buying produce through the local farmers markets (the real farmer's markets, where the money goes back into the farmer's pockets).

Yes food miles are an issue but not only for vegans, for everyone. Local is best.


**there you go, maybe not as efficient as a google search but these are just my primitive views on the answers to the questions I posed. I've been around a lot of folks who declare themselves to be concerned with the environment and what those folks are really interested in is the popularity of the environmental movement. not saying you are one of those, I'm just saying that when push comes to shove and the hard questions are asked, then it's a true test of a person's committment**


Haejin - I'm not defensive.

Alan If you buy something, say from a sweatshop, aren't you in a way supporting those workers by buying that item?

Sure the working conditions are horrendous, but where would those people get their money from if you didn't buy that item? Would their daughters be sold into the sex trade industry? Would they simply starve?
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Old 02-11-2012, 06:58 PM   #44
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not saying you are one of those, I'm just saying that when push comes to shove and the hard questions are asked, then it's a true test of a person's committment**
It absolutely is not, its a true test of how much an ass the person doing the grilling is. Some people live in areas where hemp clothing is not available. Many people can't afford it, many people have to drive cars because public transit isn't available or can't be relied on, and "eco friendly" consumerism is a crock of shit. If you're clothes are cotton, but you don't buy new clothes very often, you're still reducing your impact, moreso than if you were buying lots and lots of hempware. All the "hard questions" do is make it seem like you're an asshole, but you think you're smarter and better because you don't bother to even try to live up to an impossible ideal you hold everyone else to.
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Old 02-20-2012, 03:52 AM   #45
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you're an asshole, but you think you're smarter and better because you don't bother to even try to live up to an impossible ideal you hold everyone else to.
Yes... and no, I'm not smarter, just the run of the mill asshole, who likes to stir the pot. I don't expect anything from anybody - that way I live without having to deal with disappointment.

I choose not to eat meat because I can't stand the smell of it cooking. does that make me a vegetarian? Maybe, who knows, and frankly who cares.
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Old 02-20-2012, 10:58 AM   #46
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Not sure if you guys over there (wherever) have seen this in your own news?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...?newsfeed=true

Interesting. I'd try it. I dont see any reason it shouldn't taste any different , being after all grown from cow cells the way the rest of the cow is. Though to be fair I dislike red meat and burgers so I'd rather they hurry up and start on chicken .

Plus it would reduce the farming of animals without the ridiculous total stoppage of actually eating them. Very few would be needed to make this stem cell meat, and as I have mentioned in past debate, reduction in herd sizes should ensure a far more manageable healthier stock of beasts that are easier to house and slaughter in better cleaner conditions.
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Old 02-20-2012, 11:47 AM   #47
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The idea of lab grown meat will surely put off a few people but it can't be any worse than McDonald's food and most people are just fine eating that.

I would think that texture would be more difficult to duplicate than taste as the muscle tissue isn't being worked so it may end up with a texture more like veal. I'd certainly be willing to try it, I don't see it competing with prime beef but only a very small amount of beef is considered prime.
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Old 02-20-2012, 03:41 PM   #48
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They electro shock it to grow it, a la frankenstein. I figure they'll work a way out to " exercise " it in some way. Frankenmeat !
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Old 02-20-2012, 05:45 PM   #49
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Still wouldn't eat it, both for health reasons and the fact it reminds me of Margaret Atwood's Madd Addam series.
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Old 02-20-2012, 06:27 PM   #50
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eep i don't know how to feel about that, on the one hand; yay no need for farms and horrid cramped conditions, wasted life, and slaughter of millions of animals - big thumbs up for a vegan.
But on the other, how much more processed can you get, doesn't sound healthy. And it wouldn't surprise me if in 20 years after this was the staple diet amongst people it was found to cause cancer... :S
Think i'll stick to the good ole veggies myself
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