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Old 09-06-2012, 08:55 PM   #101
AshleyO
 
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Both are racist.

Go read Audre Lorde's open letter to Mary Daly. White people have a tendency to believe that those we Other only meet with oppression at each other's hands and do not find empowerment in their own cultures and traditions. We use them for our own colonialist and imperial gains, we use them to shut each other up, but otherwise we do not give two shits about them and will bomb them beyond recognition if the mood strikes us. We only care about brown bodies if we can use them to our own ends.
If atheism is to ever consider itself a community, then YES, FUCKING YES atheism needs A+.

It is true that the "New Atheists" had a point at the beginning. But it was through them that the idea that atheism is in fact an identity (obviously it would have to be since theist is in fact a very real thing), we STILL have a responsibility of our conduct with or without the idea of being a community.

Yes. I am an atheist. I do not appreciate the divisive nature of dogma and religion. I do not appreciate the message and dialogue that the scriptures say about people like me. YES. Fundamentalists will hate me. I will always take the believer to task about the messages it contains about the "out group".

But I would RATHER stand next to HumainPain and others who give half a shit about their fellow human beings. I'd rather stand with Christians who desire to eliminate bigotry and poverty and embrace the teachings that Christ was trying to convey than atheists who are quick to dismiss social change, issues, and the level of the importance of those things because they're more concerned with the definition of such a useless fucking word as atheism.

Seriously... I am MASSIVELY disappointed with Dawkins. He's a smart man, so there's a part of me that hopes he can see where he was wrong. I hope he understands that feminists are NOT his enemy so long as he is willing to accept this new knowledge.
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Old 09-06-2012, 08:56 PM   #102
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Where the fuck do you get that?

I still agree that the blogpost about the Long Beach public transportation harassment was completely unacceptable. It was clearly an abusive system, and illustrates issues with our society... Being awkwardly hit on in an elevator doesn't. If your take away is that everything is now invalidated because this one incident wasn't a big deal, then you're just looking at something to be mad about because you don't like my screen name. Come the fuck on.

Yes, bad things can happen in an elevator. This however, wasn't that bad. Watson doesn't think it was that bad. PZ Myer apparently didn't think it was that bad, why is it so awful if I don't think it is all that bad either? Are PZ Myer and Rebecca Watson also Cracker Von Patriarchs? This is just silly now.

http://elevatorgate.wordpress.com/
THE CRACKER VON PATRIARCHS WERE DAWKINS AND COMPANY WHO JUMPED ALL OVER HER ON THIS AS IF ITS NOT LEGITIMATE FOR WOMEN TO COMPLAIN ABOUT SUCH THINGS. Men do this to us all the fucking time if we complain about the littlest thing.

You're the one saying that everything we were saying is now "hilarious" because Watson didn't think that particular incident wasn't life threatening. You're the one dismissing us.

Quote:
Reviewing this thread, it was starting to sound like some horrible misjustice and indicative of the evils of society. I read, watch some videos, read some more, and just can't escape the feeling that this thing is being blown out of proportion.
Like really, dipshit, our oppression is now hilarious to you because we're trying to educate to you that sexism indeed exists? You, the asshole who has stated several times in the past that the only oppression that matters is classism?
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Old 09-06-2012, 08:59 PM   #103
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THE CRACKER VON PATRIARCHS WERE DAWKINS AND COMPANY WHO JUMPED ALL OVER HER ON THIS AS IF ITS NOT LEGITIMATE FOR WOMEN TO COMPLAIN ABOUT SUCH THINGS. Men do this to us all the fucking time if we complain about the littlest thing.

You're the one saying that everything we were saying is now "hilarious" because Watson didn't think that particular incident wasn't life threatening. You're the one dismissing us.



Like really, dipshit, our oppression is now hilarious to you because we're trying to educate to you that sexism indeed exists? You, the asshole who has stated several times in the past that the only oppression that matters is classism?
Post that literally launched four pages of rebuttle:
Elevatorgate?

So a guy tried to hook up with a someone, she didn't go for it, and it became A Thing?

: Nice shoes, wanna fuck?
: No
: OK bye

THE END

How scandalous.(?)

So now, on page five, what I thought on page one turns out to be the case.

I will put this as plainly as possible:
The furor over Elevatorgate is fucking hillarious.
Real world assaults, abuses, and harassments are not.
Dipshit.


And now we're arguing over the argument about elevatorgate. What a rabbit hole.

http://elevatorgate.wordpress.com/sisterhood/
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:06 PM   #104
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Yes, bad things can happen in an elevator. This however, wasn't that bad. Watson doesn't think it was that bad. PZ Myer apparently didn't think it was that bad, why is it so awful if I don't think it is all that bad either? Are PZ Myer and Rebecca Watson also Cracker Von Patriarchs? This is just silly now.
So, a couple times, I went to war. It wasn't that bad for me and I'm pretty over it.
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:08 PM   #105
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Because you're not dismissing the reaction to Watson's account, you immediately dismissed bringing it up at all and apparently you never even read Watson's account in the first place since you didn't even know she didn't make a huge thing of it until several pages later. All you knew was that a woman didn't like a man soliciting her in an elevator, and that was enough for you to say she's overreacting and stupid. What we were trying to point out was that its pretty insensitive to do that in the first place and the assholes making a big deal over her asking men not to do shit like that as if she was personally asking every man to castrate themselves and mail her their balls.

And now you're linking men's rights blogs who find feminism worse than oppression. I see you.
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:11 PM   #106
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So, a couple times, I went to war. It wasn't that bad for me and I'm pretty over it.
Taken at face value, this would be a rock solid platform to use to decry the evils of war.
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:17 PM   #107
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Because you're not dismissing the reaction to Watson's account, you immediately dismissed bringing it up at all and apparently you never even read Watson's account in the first place since you didn't even know she didn't make a huge thing of it until several pages later. All you knew was that a woman didn't like a man soliciting her in an elevator, and that was enough for you to say she's overreacting and stupid. What we were trying to point out was that its pretty insensitive to do that in the first place and the assholes making a big deal over her asking men not to do shit like that as if she was personally asking every man to castrate themselves and mail her their balls.

And now you're linking men's rights blogs who find feminism worse than oppression. I see you.
Hey remember when I was asked about Straw Men?

This works for Versus, let me try...

I NEVER SAID WATSON WAS OVER-REACTING

In fact, I said in multiple places that her reactions were entirely her own and she had every right to feel whatever she might have felt. You of course pretend otherwise because it is easier to dismiss me.

I have said at every point and continue to say, that the community response to her account is what is overblown, not her personal experience. If you cannot separate the two, then I don't know how to make it any clearer for you. I know you are smart, so I'm left with willfully obtuse.

I think everyone making a big deal of this elevatorgate incident is a goddamn moron, on both the Watson side and the Dawkins side. Am I typing in tongues? Why is this difficult to convey?
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:22 PM   #108
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Actually, he didn't think her reaction was stupid, he just didn't care.

Essentially it's not about the guy or if he was wrong. He was ignorant and privileged, yes. Bad guy, no (well, in a way, but I'm simplifying the situation here).

She then posted a blog saying, "not cool, here is why".

Then it exploded with essentially people screaming at her to get over herself and stop being a prude. Guy just wanted sex, get over it. THAT IS THE ISSUE. The fact that she wasn't JUST dismissed, but out right ridiculed as well, for her response.
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:24 PM   #109
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So you link to a site that obsessively documents feminist reactions to the whole thing and defends the term "feminazi', which was coined by Rush Limbaugh by the way just so you know where you stand when you use that term.

And yes, you did. You fucking liar, your first post is like "OOOOH HOW SCANDALOUS". That's not claiming its an overraction? Fucker you didn't even know what her reaction WAS.

Then there was the whole thing where you were fucking defending the creep

Quote:
How does a person establish that they are open to reciprocate? Apparently you can't walk up and ask directly, so how does this work without somehow causing an awkward moment?
Quote:
Wouldn't asking if someone wants to come back to your room to have coffee be a manner to socially engage a person to elicit cues and gauge interest? A clumsy attempt perhaps, but... what was he supposed to do? Use a third party intermediary?

"Pardon me, but my friend over there - yes the one looking at his shoes so as to not offend, was wondering if perhaps he might be allowed to speak with you if it is ok I mean"
Quote:
So... he should have not approached unless there was some clear and yet apparently completely arbitrary indication that he was invited to speak?

This is pretty hilarious. How do you meet new people?
This whole argument began because you think it was more than appropriate behavior and you couldn't see why a woman wouldn't want someone doing that to her.
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:27 PM   #110
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The reaction to the incident by people who aren't Watson is what i was mocking
not the incident itself

The reaction to the incident by people who aren't Watson is what i was mocking
not the incident itself

The reaction to the incident by people who aren't Watson is what i was mocking
not the incident itself

The reaction to the incident by people who aren't Watson is what i was mocking
not the incident itself

The reaction to the incident by people who aren't Watson is what i was mocking
not the incident itself

-

Being misunderstood or unclear is not lying. I thought saying multiple times that the community reactions and not the principle actors was hillarious would clarify things. So are you selectively reading my posts, or willfully misinterpreting them wholesale?
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:28 PM   #111
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Then why did you say it was appropriate for a man to follow a woman into an elevator and that she shouldn't complain?

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She got off the elevator, and made it her room safe. I am sorry, but being flirted with, even awkwardly, is not something I can see as a social wrong in need of redress.
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:30 PM   #112
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Shit, this the second fucking time we're calling you out on this on the same night, how stupid do you think we are?

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Originally Posted by Solumina
You have not said "it is okay for women to be threatened" but your attitude and what you are saying supports a culture where it is okay for a woman to be threatened.

You have not said "Watson overreacted" but you are dismissive of why she felt the way she did.

You haven't said "Watson misunderstood her situation" but you argue that we need to give the man the benefit of our doubt and in turn you imply that she was wrong for not doing so.

You have not specifically made these points but these points color everything that you have said. We have brought them up not because you have consciously voiced them but because they are underlying what you say and because you may not even realize that what you are saying is perpetuating those ideas.
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:36 PM   #113
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Being misunderstood or unclear is not lying. I thought saying multiple times that the community reactions and not the principle actors was hillarious would clarify things. So are you selectively reading my posts, or willfully misinterpreting them wholesale?
It is lying, because the whole fucking thing began with you not seeing any fucking problem with following women into elevators and soliciting them and you defending the shit out of that behaviour. It had nothing to do with community reactions until I brought Dawkins up later, saying that that was the main thing about the whole thing that I found upsetting.
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:38 PM   #114
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Fucker you didn't even know what her reaction WAS.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKHwd...layer_embedded

Please answer these three simple questions.

1. Is this Watson
2. Is it reasonable to believe she was speaking earnestly about her experience?
3. If it is Watson, and she is earnestly speaking about her experience, is it reasonable to draw a conclusion about her reaction to the incident?

If the answers to any of these are not "NO", then fuck you for calling me a fucker, fucker.
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:38 PM   #115
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Hey, Saya: Give me some attention. My bike back-pedals, too.
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:40 PM   #116
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Again dude, it had nothing to do with that video until you later looked it up on page four. It had nothing to do with community reaction until I brought it up near the bottom of Page Three. For two and a half pages, you were simply defending following women into elevators, claiming it was a total non-issue and we shouldn't complain about such instances.
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:43 PM   #117
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Again dude, it had nothing to do with that video until you later looked it up on page four. It had nothing to do with community reaction until I brought it up near the bottom of Page Three. For two and a half pages, you were simply defending following women into elevators, claiming it was a total non-issue and we shouldn't complain about such instances.
Please answer these three simple questions.

1. Is this Watson
2. Is it reasonable to believe she was speaking earnestly about her experience?
3. If it is Watson, and she is earnestly speaking about her experience, is it reasonable to draw a conclusion about her reaction to the incident?

If the answers to any of these are not "NO", then fuck you for calling me a fucker, fucker.
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:51 PM   #118
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Dude, again, THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT YOU ARE DISMISSING.

Yes, its Watson! Yes, what she feels about her instance is valid.

And yet, you still want to pretend that you weren't defending the man who followed her in the elevator and totally dismissing any kind of reaction that wasn't totally okay with what he did? And somehow argue that this whole time you were arguing with my point that I didn't come in and make until the bottom of page three?

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Old 09-06-2012, 09:52 PM   #119
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I posted, in #69:
"I'm not the only person who thinks this specific incident is blown out of proportion. That doesn't mean that I don't think Watson's personal experience was inflated - it means the overall hoopla that this sparked off is amazing. I was bracing for some really harrowing personal account, and after filtering through all the build up I found out she was asked for coffee. It's going to take some work to get past that."

Saya popped back into the thread three posts later, and yet claims I didn't start talking about the community reaction until she brought it up. She may have missed it due to weird timing. That's understandable, but calling me a liar and a fucker over it is out of line.

Can she admit that she is mistaken on that point and I was talking about this before she mentioned it?
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:53 PM   #120
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So it came in three posts later, my bad. The point is though, you were still saying for two pages that it was perfectly okay for him to follow her and make her feel uncomfortable. That's a fact you can't deny.
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Old 09-06-2012, 10:35 PM   #121
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Don't take this the wrong way, Rebecca, but you're really fucking boring. Stay the hell away from my coffee. And don't come near my room.

Yours truly,

The Male Gender.

LondonIrishRover
Fine example of sexism.
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Old 09-06-2012, 10:43 PM   #122
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Oh. How interesting. Her video is 1400 likes and almost 9,000 dislikes.

HHHHHHHmmmmmmmmm.....
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Old 09-06-2012, 10:46 PM   #123
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I didn't dismiss racism, racism is a real thing, there are real racists. If you're referring to an old thread, then I still believe class and economic discrimination are much more prevalent factors than ethnicity. Neighborhoods are not nearly as segregated by race as they are property values. That's irrelevent to this discussion anyway.


Really quick while I collect g.net's garbage.
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Old 09-06-2012, 10:49 PM   #124
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OBVIOUSLY what one can learn from this is that if the atheist community wants to admit that they are in fact a "people" no matter how diverse; when you establish a sense of community, it demands a level of responsibility. Truth be told, atheists have found common ground through common experiences with religion. That common ground establishes a sort of bond. It was enough that we DID in fact see a problem with certain aspects of society based on superstitious hysteria. And NOW! NOW they want to deny other social struggles!

Perhaps the four horsemen should have been aware that their speeches and rhetoric touched the hearts of many atheists and NOW they're dismissing their female and PoC atheist comrades. Fuck over-reacting. The non-belief or even secular community could certainly do with more feminism. This was bound to happen.
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Old 09-06-2012, 10:58 PM   #125
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You know what, can we come back to the larger narrative after we clarify whether or not I'm a monster because I don't think Elevatorgate was a big deal?
I'll bite.

Because it's not your fucking place to decide how fucking unimportant it is. Leave that to the actual victims, will you? You notice how when Saya and Solumina came in, I shut my fucking mouth? I can't speak for them, the only thing I can do is listen to what they have to say and try to understand so that I can collect my fucking garbage when they aren't around. It's important to them. It actually effects them. Regardless of how they feel about it, it is their issue. If I say something is racist and Alan or BourbonBoy disagrees,it's okay for them to disagree; it effects them. It's not okay for anybody else to chime in unless they are speaking to another white person. This series of bullshit arguments we're having with you? I wouldn't have said shit if you were a woman. But when you argue for and defend the dude in the elevator, the only thing you're doing is reenforcing a position of power; a position wherein it's completely hunky-fucking-dory for a man to make a woman feel threatened. You can call it whatever the fuck you want; being socially awkward, it doesn't fucking matter. You're nothing short of a fucking asshole for dismissing this sort of blase attitude in society.
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