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Old 09-06-2012, 11:25 PM   #126
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And now this.

Quote:
I am not helping women get victimized. If she had been assaulted in any way I'd be in the forefront calling for the victimizer's head on a stick, I've done it in the past and will continue to do so.
And now you're limiting being a victim of **** culture to being assaulted. It is so much fucking more then that. Like racism, it is tacit and fucking subtle. It's so invisible that people who don't have to deal with it won't even see it. When a woman who is being cat-called is asked what she was wearing at the time, when a woman is told she gave consent because she said yes, they are all manifestations of **** culture. You are helping women get victimized because you are perpetuating the toxic and dangerous idea that the man in the elevator did not do anything wrong.

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But trying and failing to have a conversation isn't ****. There is no equivalency you can draw that is not false. Suggesting otherwise is pretty silly. If I told a **** victim I could relate to them because this one time someone asked me over to their place for coffee they'd be justified in slapping the shit out of me.
And what the fuck. I will never try to define what **** is, and you're a fucking pig for doing it. I was not making comparisons, I said **** culture. They are not the same. For the last time, educate yourself. It's not fucking hard. Open a new tab and fucking google it. There's even a half-assed wikipedia page you can drool on.

This will not go anywhere until you try to understand what the fuck you're talking about.
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Old 09-06-2012, 11:36 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Saya View Post
So it came in three posts later, my bad. The point is though, you were still saying for two pages that it was perfectly okay for him to follow her and make her feel uncomfortable. That's a fact you can't deny.
No harm no foul on it then. Things were coming in fast. It's frustrating though to get called out on something that isn't the case.

I do not think it is ok to make women uncomfortable. I do think it is ridiculous to get up in arms over a clumsy advance that was rebuffed.

Anyway, I'll give you more to hate later. Good night
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Old 09-07-2012, 12:24 AM   #128
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snGuJ...layer_embedded

You see... this is what people in the atheist community are being hostile about.

Is there ANYTHING remotely wrong with this? Because I really can not see it.

There's been this popular saying "Good without a god" for a while and NOW, when the community is asked to pony the fuck up; we get this bullshit.
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Old 09-07-2012, 01:35 AM   #129
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See, I just have a problem demonizing the guy in the story. He didn't understand why a difference of setting, time, and approach would matter. Rather than attacking people for their ignorance though, we should at least put the information out there. Of course, that happened during this argument. Many of you were linking quite a bit of things I have never read before. All of which are not even on the top of a majorities minds to even google. Granted, it's a fucked up system, i'm not at all happy with. But, teaching people about privilege's they have is a delicate process. Too much at once, or anger in response, they get scared and bury their heads up their asses. Too little and those affected suffer even longer.

Added: Wow. Honestly forgive my posts a bit. My mind is all over the place recently, reading what I typed. Well... It was all over the place...
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Old 09-07-2012, 01:56 AM   #130
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If there's something that I've learned from being outspoken as an atheist, it's that generally no one wants to be an agent of evil.

Every time privilege has come up on this forum, it's been eye opening. No one wants to see their privileges and they want to rationalize their privilege or deny it because they feel that THEY are evil for having privilege. What they failed to realize is that it WASN'T necessarily their own fault for not seeing their privilege.

As far as I can tell; it looks like when one decides that their privilege doesn't exist when they are already convinced it does and their pride causes them to deny it anyway does it actually seem very much like abject evil.

Personally; I don't want my privilege. Initially I didn't anyway.

But then I got to thinking. For example; I have the privilege of not having to be aware of my gender or my race. I NEVER have to think of myself as a white man. I can think of myself as a human. I doubt that PoC and other genders enjoy such a privilege. Instead of stripping that aspect of my privilege away; I'm left wondering if it'd be much better if there's a way to extend that particular privilege to everyone so that it's no longer a privilege. Shouldn't we all be able to see ourselves as human?
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Old 09-07-2012, 06:47 AM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Versus
Because his wall of male privilege tells him that men are entitled to approach women. Point blank, that's all it is. He was told that Watson isn't overreacting and that her reaction should be respected... that in fact, it IS a big deal. He was even told why her reaction wasn't over the top by an actual woman who was able to share a perspective that I fucking know that nobody else here thought of, and he's still too cracker von patriarch to think about what **** culture means.

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I don't think V is angry because he has made a logical decision that being angry is the best way to get through to Jonathan. I think he is angry for the same reason why I walked away from this thread for nearly an hour. The viewpoint Jonathan holds is problematic. It is insidious. It is omnipresent. Above all it is really and truly dangerous.

It is something that we should be angry about.
These. These. Are pretty much it.

I used to be a lot more tolerant of men hitting on me. Now, if someone comes right up and asks me out when we haven't exchanged more than perfunctory conversation, it makes me annoyed. Even if he does it in the daylight. Even if we're in a crowded place, and I don't feel remotely threatened. On principle.

Harsh? Maybe it is. Or maybe I've spent years dealing with the male entitlement Versus is talking about, and it's given me a short fucking fuse - letting people down gently no matter how awkward they make it, dealing with the men who get nasty - oh, and Solumina's not wrong about that possibility. I was out with a group of friends once, that was mostly female and included 2 guys. A large group of blokes came over for a coordinated hitting-on effort, that they obviously envisioned ended with us all pairing off. When they were first brushed off and then politely asked to leave us alone (half the women were gay, the other half just wanted to hang out with friends and not deal with the slobber of inebriated strangers), they turned. They ended up getting so threatening (pushing, touching us, surrounding one of the girls who was sitting down to box her in, threatening the guys we were with etc.) that we were forced to do something I'd never had to do before, and ask a bouncer to escort us to our taxi outside. We were mostly worried they'd be gunning for the 2 guys (one of them, who was also gay, got quite the mouthful of homophobic vitriol), but frankly, nothing they did would have surprised me based on the way they reacted. The way they kicked off was fucking scary.

And bear in mind that this was not a one-off. It was simply the worst case of it that I've ever experienced, and probably escalated the way it did because there were so many of them. I can give you about 15 milder incidents in a similar vein on a one-on-one basis, if you need to hear them to understand why a woman might bristle about being approached by a stranger, whose conversation consists of making it abundantly clear that he wants to fuck her.

Or, you know what? Maybe I just think, "You don't fucking know me, so you're asking me out because you find me sexually attractive. And it's not 'flattering', or 'a compliment'; it makes me think you're the kind of guy who picks His Women by appearance, as though out of a line-up - ergo, not someone I'm interested in getting to know."

Like I said, when I was younger, I always let guys who did this down gently and as nicely as possible - even if they got shitty, I'd think "Oh well, you did just reject him..." Fucking bullshit. I'd been brainwashed into accepting male entitlement as natural and inevitable. That's all.
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Old 09-07-2012, 09:17 AM   #132
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Like I said, when I was younger, I always let guys who did this down gently and as nicely as possible - even if they got shitty, I'd think "Oh well, you did just reject him..." Fucking bullshit. I'd been brainwashed into accepting male entitlement as natural and inevitable. That's all.
You know what really makes my blood fucking boil? That people think they can draw the line for you. The backlash that Watson or atheism+ got is just... disgusting. It's not just **** and sexual assault. It's fucking everything. The collective sense of entitlement, the excuses, the trivializing, the skepticism and side eyes... it all the same thing to me, sometimes. Those group of guys you were talking about couldn't have pissed me off more if they had become violent.

It's so much bullshit that some pig can say what is or isn't a big deal.
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Old 09-07-2012, 10:09 AM   #133
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Fuck that ignorant asshole in the elevator. He's an asshole for approaching her alone in an elevator at 4am. I mean, check out the sense of entitlement on THAT guy. And shit, you never know who's going to throw a violent tantrum like a spoiled little man-child who didn't get what he wanted, and whether he did or not there are plenty of situations where that happens... so when we're intruded on like that we get to wait with baited breath to see if this new jerkwad is going to get shitty and violent with us for no better reason than we declined their unwanted presence.

She is NOT an asshole for writing about it. All she did was write about her experience and handed out a little free advice.

People who accused her of being hysterical and blowing things out of proportion are assholes. All that sort of shit is, is a silencing tactic. No one wants to hear that women aren't ok with being approached at any time of the day or night, they don't want to hear what assholes they are for not seeing anything wrong with invading a woman's space and stealing her time because they don't want to be told that they're NOT fucking entitled to every fucking woman just because she's a woman.

Oh and yo, Johnathan, you ignorant fuck. I'm sure you'd throw a world class shit fit if it were YOU in that elevator with a 250 lb gay dude who was soliciting YOU for sex.

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Old 09-07-2012, 10:52 AM   #134
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See, I just have a problem demonizing the guy in the story. He didn't understand why a difference of setting, time, and approach would matter. Rather than attacking people for their ignorance though, we should at least put the information out there. Of course, that happened during this argument. Many of you were linking quite a bit of things I have never read before. All of which are not even on the top of a majorities minds to even google. Granted, it's a fucked up system, i'm not at all happy with. But, teaching people about privilege's they have is a delicate process. Too much at once, or anger in response, they get scared and bury their heads up their asses. Too little and those affected suffer even longer.
No, I totally get what you're saying - makes perfect sense, and I agree. The tricky thing here is that not understanding prejudice, privilege etc., doesn't make someone a bad person; plenty of women wouldn't see the problem with being hit on in a lift, so I can't blame men for not immediately understanding what the problem is. People can't be expected to understand complex forms of prejudice they've never experienced or really had to think about much. Although a guy walking up and hitting on me would irk me, I would remain polite as long as he did.

For me, with privilege in general, the cut-off point for politeness is that I would expect someone to listen when I explained it; if they don't even try to understand before loudly mansplaining that they're actually the victims because if they weren't expected to do All The Chasing, they'd love to sit back and let the ladies come to them (I’ve heard that one before from male friends), that's where patience gives ways to long rants that start with: *incredulity, giving way to crazy eyes* "... Okay, you know WHAT?"

Politeness as a first port of call is a good thing IMO. No one’s a bottomless pit, but plenty of people will try to understand if it's explained reasonably to them – and let's face it, none of us popped out the womb and landed in a Social Justice Warrior fighting-stance, bullshit-detectors at the ready. Just because anger is justified, doesn’t mean it’s always the most effective way, or that politeness is somehow an inadequate response. This shit is endemic, and unlearning it is an active process, not a marker of innate righteousness.


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You know what really makes my blood fucking boil? That people think they can draw the line for you. The backlash that Watson or atheism+ got is just... disgusting. It's not just **** and sexual assault. It's fucking everything. The collective sense of entitlement, the excuses, the trivializing, the skepticism and side eyes... it all the same thing to me, sometimes. Those group of guys you were talking about couldn't have pissed me off more if they had become violent.
Nothing like that click to make you start seeing violence in the everyday... I was with a friend once after a night out and on the way home this guy started following her and talking to her, and wouldn't leave her alone. I was getting so angry at his presumption - she told him nicely that she wasn't looking to get picked up, and he was pleasant about it, but wouldn't leave and followed us for about 20 minutes, trying to be cute.

She didn't really have a problem with it - she said afterwards that he'd been a nice enough guy and everything, and couldn't understand why I was so pissed off. It just turned my stomach watching him ignore her amiable but clear signs like that. Like life was an 80s romcom and she was merely so much background cast in the movie of his life, in which he gets the girl through persistence, and if he hung in there, he'd wear her down eventually. Like you with those guys, I was almost as annoyed as though he'd actually done something awful; she even joked afterwards, "All right, calm down, he didn't try to **** me or anything".
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Old 09-07-2012, 12:01 PM   #135
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Watson isn't an asshole for what happened. I don't know why everyone seizes on that as the take away.

I wouldn't throw a "shit fit" of any size or scope if I was hit on by someone I wasn't interested in, or hit on in an inconvenient time or setting. I'd say "thanks but no thanks" and go on with my life. It's happened multiple times, it kind of goes along with being adult.

PZ Myers literally wrote that this wasn't a big deal, Watson addressed the situation to the degree necessary. Is Pharyngula a Mens Rights Advocacy Blog? I'm looking at http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2...nce-more-unto/ He's apparently male and white though, so I guess his words don't count.

"The elevator incident demands…a personal rejection and a woman nicely suggesting to the atheist community that they avoid doing that."

It doesn't demand outrage. That is a disproportionate reaction to a minor event.

"The guy in the elevator was not accused of being a rapist; I got the impression from Rebecca that she wasn’t even really worried about serious threat to her safety, but was annoyed that she was being pestered by an insensitive cad."

No one has a right to go through life without being annoyed. I am discussing a situation where the person involved was not threatened or worried. She was annoyed. That is the context. You want to argue that people should expect to go through life without getting annoyed, good luck with that.

No one should be threatened, or made to feel as such. This guy wasn't threatening her, nor was he perceived to be a threat. This outrage is really misplaced.
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Old 09-07-2012, 12:23 PM   #136
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Your understanding of what is at issue here seems more than a little off.

Nobody is saying that elevator guy is a terrible person, nobody is saying that what he did is life threatening. What we are saying, what she said is that it is a very uncomfortable situation and hey can you please not do that because it makes us uncomfortable and does not promote an inclusive, welcoming environment, which is a problem within the community, and honestly society as a whole.

That is the message that was put out and that is what people responded to with hate, anger, vitriol, and dismissal. This response is what we are angry about.
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Old 09-07-2012, 12:28 PM   #137
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See, I just have a problem demonizing the guy in the story. He didn't understand why a difference of setting, time, and approach would matter. Rather than attacking people for their ignorance though, we should at least put the information out there. Of course, that happened during this argument. Many of you were linking quite a bit of things I have never read before. All of which are not even on the top of a majorities minds to even google. Granted, it's a fucked up system, i'm not at all happy with. But, teaching people about privilege's they have is a delicate process. Too much at once, or anger in response, they get scared and bury their heads up their asses. Too little and those affected suffer even longer.

Added: Wow. Honestly forgive my posts a bit. My mind is all over the place recently, reading what I typed. Well... It was all over the place...
There's an Golden Girls episode (and yes I sit at home and watch rerurns and knit while doing so because I'm secretly eighty) where Blanche does something really insensitive to Dorothy and Dorothy gets really mad. Blanche doesn't see the big deal and tells Dorothy she's making a mountain out of a mole hill. Dorothy replies that she's getting upset because she always does things like this, "I've had five years of mole hills!"

That's what its like putting up with a million insensitive guys like the guy in the elevator, mixed in with guys who get angry or violent when you're polite and give them the benefit of the doubt, and after you hear so many stories of women being rraped or murdered because of it. Cuckoo's post illustrated this nicely. Last night I was on talking to Versus on google talk and he was reading off this article where a lot of drive by cat callers shot women who refused advances. I had nightmares last night, most cat callers who bother me do so in a car when I can do absolutely nothing about what they're doing. On top of that, I get very afraid whenever I hear of queer people getting attacked and murdered. And I'm tired of having to worry about this shit. I have to get angry and motivated to change because people are dying and its an emergency. The only other alternative is to accept that I might get murdered someday because of who I am.

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But then I got to thinking. For example; I have the privilege of not having to be aware of my gender or my race. I NEVER have to think of myself as a white man. I can think of myself as a human. I doubt that PoC and other genders enjoy such a privilege. Instead of stripping that aspect of my privilege away; I'm left wondering if it'd be much better if there's a way to extend that particular privilege to everyone so that it's no longer a privilege. Shouldn't we all be able to see ourselves as human?
When I made my second post yesterday and went to work and came back to read, yeah I was glad that you guys sensed what was wrong about the elevator thing but I couldn't believe that no one pointed out until Solumina came in that elevators are scary. To me and to her, we were raised with that and it seemed obvious. Your privilege in this case was your blind spot. Privilege doesn't make you a bad person. It can make you oblivious to things for other people to point out.

Privilege also means more basically to be above the law. To my understanding this is the original meaning. Odds are a white cop can get away with murdering a black person, that's the standard in this society. When Anonymous hit the Neo-Nazi site I remember in one of the pms one of the Nazis said that its easy to kill black people and claim self defense, that he has wronged every but one of the ten commandments and gotten away with it, and he hasn't committed adultery. Its also the standard that a rapist has a really good chance of walking away scott free. For the oppressed, there is no justice. This aspect of privilege obviously can't be stretched without making law or justice meaningless.

What I'm trying to say is privilege doesn't make you evil. Privilege gives you a greater capacity to commit evil. Privilege in this society may even encourage a person to commit that evil. But part of being a good ally is refusing to do so.
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Old 09-07-2012, 12:44 PM   #138
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You're having an unusually difficult time grasping that Watson's experience wasn't an isolated and singular event... That it is one occurrence amongst so many that it has to be defined as a cultural attitude, as a systemic norm.

You're also having difficulty understanding that Watson's individual reactions and feelings are just that. They are her own, but her experience is NOT ONLY HERS. It is shared most women who are equally allowed to react however they feel fit. How she felt cannot be applied arbitrarily to women in general and it's asinine to draw any conclusion about the severity of the cultural situation at all based upon the feelings of individuals taken from a sample size of one fucking elevator.

As an example, I once stuck my fingers into a man's face to pull out debri from what I can only describe as a melted eyeball in it's socket. My reaction afterward was to wash my hands and eat dinner. My reaction and how I felt say nothing about whether what happened was acceptable or not.
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Old 09-07-2012, 01:52 PM   #139
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So guys...

What about that island?

Any takers?
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Old 09-07-2012, 02:04 PM   #140
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Fuck you. It was my idea.
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Old 09-07-2012, 02:14 PM   #141
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It was a nifty idea. Even if it only as measure as fantasy.
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Old 09-07-2012, 07:56 PM   #142
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Can we build an angry dome?
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Old 09-07-2012, 08:05 PM   #143
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Old 09-07-2012, 08:15 PM   #144
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Old 09-08-2012, 06:43 AM   #145
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Jonathan, you really don't get this. It isn't about what SHE said, it isn't about being outraged about some fuckwit in an elevator.

Its about the fucking assholes who got all pissy when she TALKED about it. Its about all the people who told her that it wasn't a big deal at all and that she should just shut up. Its about the harassment and death threats she got when she spoke up about it. Its about Dawkin's outright dismissal and attempts at silencing through a third-person type oppression Olympics.

It's about little fuckwits like you, thinking that you have some sort of valid opinion about how big a deal it is for a woman to have to deal with some asshole in an elevator who doesn't have enough respect for her to ask her before or after they're trapped in a small space together.

Its about how if he'd felt just a bit more entitled, this wouldn't be about a rejection in the elevator and some advice for guys to not be creepy. This would have been about an attack, groping or possibly r.pe, then it wouldn't be about her "overreacting" it would be about how its all her fault being in that elevator looking sexy.

I'm so fucking irritated that this is even an issue, or controversial, because a bunch of ignorant dudes who rarely have to deal with the entitled assholes of the world acting as if they are owed women's attention and access to women's bodies can't handle it when they're told that they're NOT. This isn't some thing that ends with us all agreeing to disagree, this isn't up for discussion. Dudes need to quit getting their undies in a wad every time a fucking woman stands up for herself.
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Old 09-08-2012, 12:51 PM   #146
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https://sindeloke.wordpress.com/2010/01/13/37/


I think I'm just going to start using this.
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Old 09-08-2012, 05:25 PM   #147
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I like that, but I suspect it's because I understand. I have something to compare it to. A lot of people don't.

I'm not sure it would be good at convincing someone of social injustice.
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Old 09-09-2012, 03:11 PM   #148
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I forgot how much Gnetters love the sound of their own voice and THE LIBERAL APPLICATION OF CAPS LOCK to get across a fucking point to these fucking limp-dicked fuckwits with their fucking stupid opifuckinions, godfuckingdamnit

Take a valium, this thread gave me an aneurysm
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Old 09-09-2012, 06:13 PM   #149
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I forgot how much Gnetters love the sound of their own voice and THE LIBERAL APPLICATION OF CAPS LOCK to get across a fucking point to these fucking limp-dicked fuckwits with their fucking stupid opifuckinions, godfuckingdamnit

Take a valium, this thread gave me an aneurysm
If this was about Twilight or what is goth or something, sure. But privileged white dudes telling women and PoC that they have no right to get annoyed when privileged white dudes feel entitled to get in their face tend to peeve people off, dude, and its not your place to tone police.
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Old 09-10-2012, 07:43 AM   #150
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Understatement.
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