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Old 12-15-2005, 10:27 AM   #26
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Old 12-15-2005, 10:40 AM   #27
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lol I thought about it, but I figured you guys would be all over my attempt to wriggle out of it like a bunch of vultures. Plus I figured all the old stuff would be underneath?... Or do I just not have the hang of this internet thingy?...
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Old 12-15-2005, 04:17 PM   #28
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Old 12-15-2005, 11:29 PM   #29
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Thank you Santerea.

Wise - I still mean every word that I said, but I do apologize for the ferocity of my rebuttals. Especially seeing as you are the only one that had previously 'jumped on the bandwagon' to actually make a thread about it.

Okay. Everyone has the right to their opinion. I certainly have mine. But what aggravated me yesterday was

1. Blatant stereotyping (ie, those asses are all cultists!)

2. Secondhand information

If you are going to discuss a topic as controversial and personal (to some) as Religion, then damnit, read what you're talking about. The statements made were ignorant and wrong as hell.

I'm tired of every person, even Christians, inserting stuff into the Bible that's not there...assuming that since someone else said it/wrote it, that it's in there...jumping on the bandwagon because it's 'cool'...

It all comes down to this. Christians that don't know what their own religion consists of and run their mouths, are damn idiots. They're lazy, they're ignorant. Non-Christians that haven't researched an issue and inaccurately cite what they are running their mouths about are lazy, and ignorant.

It doesn't make you cool. It makes you uneducated in the area that you are trying to discuss.

And if anyone doubts my ability to have objective discussions about religion, or decides to use me as an example of the 'intolerant Bible thumper' please be aware that I married a Satanist with inverted pents tattooed on him. I seriously freaking doubt that him and I could have ever gotten along so well as to marry; without having the ability to intelligently discuss differing ideas.
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Old 12-16-2005, 02:22 AM   #30
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Here are some links that may be interesting to anyone who feels that Christianity and the Bible are patriarchal in nature. There is a large gap between Fundamental Christianity (which is the type that most of us have our beef with) and Liberal Christianity.

This link addresses the Sophia principle. Wisdom is personified as a woman in the Old Testament. King Solomon (who by the way, was one of the first people ever to take the pentagram as his personal symbol) has a lot of literature circling around about him purporting that he approved of the veneration of Sophia (Wisdom) and had her worshiped as the Goddess Asherah. She is also written about in the Apocrypha.
http://northernway.org/sophia.html

The Hebrew word for 'Holy Spirit' is feminine. It wasn't until the Greek translation of the Bible rendered it neuter (neither male nor female) that thereafter the Holy Spirit had been assumed to be a 'he'. This link is a bit cheesy but there's more resources out there if you choose to pursue.
http://www.nccg.org/trinity/1-3.html

On a tangent, I recently have become very interested in the actitivities of Solomon. I haven't yet been able to research the historical validity of the 'Key of Solomon', but notable is the amazing resemblence between the practices described within and the practices of Wicca. Here is the 'Key' below...
http://www.sacred-texts.com/grim/kos/

If you have read the Da Vinci code and are interested in the 'extra-biblical' writings, here is a link to them all online. Those interested in women's studies will probably be interested in the Gospel of Mary Magdalene, the 'extra' book of Esther, Susanna, and the 'Pistis Sophia'. This is where most of the theory came from and if you're interested in what all this really says, check it out for yourself.
http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/

Someone posted about Lilith, the purported 'first wife' of Adam. She is not included in the Torah or the Christian Old Testament. She is a Hebrew goddess. This link contains excerpts from Hebrew Mythology books and you can get the basic jist of what the Lilith legend is all about.
http://www.webcom.com/~gnosis/lillith.html

And last but not least, like I said before, there is a stark difference between Fundamental/Conservative and Liberal Christianity. The link below is to Starchild's essay on the difference. She has some pretty radical ideas, and I really like to read her essays but if you don't like her site don't write nasty letters, it's her personal site and I don't even know the lady.
http://paganwiccan.about.com/gi/dyna...2FRawnaMoon%2F
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Old 12-16-2005, 02:35 AM   #31
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Whoops. The last link doesn;t go to Starchild's page, it goes to Rawna Moon's because I used her as the link. the appropriate last link is this for Liberal VS Conservative Christianity:
http://members.aol.com/Starchild0/Theology/conlib.html
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Old 12-16-2005, 03:03 AM   #32
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Wow. So much to respond to. Now THAT'S a discussion!
Santarea - don't worry about looking like a bitch. The reason I posted this thread is because some of us got onto a subject that I found interesting and wanted to continue, so I threw it out there, precisely for the purpose of finding out what others think. If you have something to say that I don't know - and you probably do if religion is part of your major - then by all means hit me; that's why this thread is here, for discussion. It doesn't have to mean a ruck. (Or maybe I'm just the last of the innocents.) I have absolutely no comment to make about the sexual prowess - or lack thereof, I really don't know - of your mother. Bitch away, my friend. We're old enough that I'm not gonna start whining about you being mean.
I realise that The Da Vinci Code is a novel, written for entertainment, but that's not the only place I've heard the Mary Magdalene theory. And that's what I mentioned it as, a THEORY. Not frickin' gospel. I mentioned it once, in passing, since I don't know very much about it. But if I'm not mistaken, they can't completely DISprove it any more than they can prove it, can they?? I'm sure someone will tell me in no uncertain terms if I'm wrong about that. As they should, of course.
Yes, man accepted the fruit. But in my opinion, the fact that woman was the instigator shows undertones of discrimination, as it's after that that God decrees that woman shall "henceforth be ruled by [her] husband", due to her weakness. Given that this is accepted by many Christians nowadays to be a SYMBOLIC story of creation (although many may take the Bible version literally - I really don't know. In England there are very few companies you wouldn't be laughed out of for that, but from what I understand much of America is very Christian, so no idea), to me that insertion just smacks of justification. And I believe I'm as entitled to that opinion as you guys are to yours that it's NOT sexist. I believe I have reasonable grounds for making that claim - if man and woman sinned equally, then why was woman told to defer and punished with painful childbirth? Being chucked out of Eden and having to make their own way and survive was a punishment for both of them, but childbirth was specifically for Eve.
Was Eve not good?, you ask. Sure. She was essentially good but flawed, like mankind itself. However, UNlike man, she is also represented as the origin of all sin. Adam's sin was a direct result of hers. The message to me says, man, watch your woman or she'll lead you into a whole world of trouble. Obviously, everybody has their own interpretation of the story, but I believe mine is just as valid as anyone else's. The very first time we see a man following a woman's lead, it all goes tits up and God reverses the power balance by decreeing that henceforth it shall be otherwise.
Yes, there are good women to be found in the Bible. If you've read the thread opener, you'll see that I've already acknowledged that I made a sweeping generalisation there. In my defence, when this convo started it was in a brief exchange with a couple of like-minded individuals, so the argumant will be a little flawed if read from a different angle as no one was writing to convince or debate. We weren't writing for an audience as tough as you two - it was literally a verbal kick-around. I also said that Salome's asking for the head of John may have been her mother's doing, but the point is that it was a woman who was responsible for the killing of the one who came to prepare the way for Christ, the *looks innocent* male saviour of the world.
And I agree that it's what you make of it. There's a hell of a lot in there that I have no quarrel with - don't kill, don't steal, cast the log outta your own eye first, **** is not okay etc. There's a lot of positive morality in there (to me, positive morality is morality that's based on common sense and philanthropy). I don't dispute that. I merely point out that as it is, as you say, open to interpretation and what you make of it, there's also a lot in there that's open to twisting. As you pretty much admit, you can make it say just about anything you want it to. There are many beliefs expressed in there with undertones of fascism. No, not ALL, but enough to make me uncomfortable. That is my personal response. Apologies if people don't like it, but it's THERE. You're absolutely right, it's not ALL that's there ... but it is there, if you look for it. And people looking to validate their self-righteous sense of superiority over gay people, those who practice occultist beliefs etc., sure as hell will be. THAT is my problem. I'm not saying all Christians are like this. I'm saying the Bible provides a conveniant tool for those who are, allowing them to dodge reasoned debate by referring you to Verse X if you call them on it. Anything that saves people from having to think for themselves (again, not saying that no Christians do, but it makes it easy for those that don't) needs to be treated carefully in my opinion.
Blushing Heliophobe, I don't think you are an intolerant Bible thumper. I think you have strong views about your religion, which conflict with mine. As explained, the "those asses" comment (about the people who wrote the Bible, and therefore the stuff I don't like) took place in a casual convo with others who were of a similar persuasion. Apologies, it has no place in a reasoned debate. Just bear in mind though that that's not what it was when I wrote it.
I don't doubt your ability to discuss religion rationally. I just seriously disagree with you on several points.
Have I read the Bible? - yes, all the way through twice. The last time was when I was fifteen and I don't have one on me down here at university, so I may flounder occasionally when it comes to direct quotes or names. But I remember what I thought, and I know what I still think. There's a reason I never went back to it - I simply did not connect with it, at all. I read it when I was a kid and loved it, for the stories, then I read it again as a teenager and being old enough to take issue with so much of it, that was the last time I opened it. Does the fact that I haven't retained every single name and story word for word discount me from being able to have an opinion on the Bible as a whole?


My co-worker said it best- Faith is for all (any faith, even none), religion is not for all. Some need the guidance, some do not.[/quote]

My thoughts exactly. This is what I meant when I said that I saw organised religion as akin to cultism - religion prescribes beliefs to you like little pills and discourages original thought (I know a lot of people are likely to disagree with that, but screw it - anything that tells you, "this is how it is - these people are good and should be imitated, these people are bad and should be shunned/stoned to death" is attempting to make your mind up for you), whereas faith gives you the freedom to choose your own. For example, I was raised a Christian, but never considered myself one really. I just believed in God, and a few other things (including the right of every human being who isn't hurting others to live their life in any way they choose).
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Old 12-16-2005, 04:15 AM   #33
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I never stated what my religion was, and actually, I don't have one. I believe in God, and I value the bible, but I practice my own unique spirituality. While I do believe in Christ, I hate to be called a Christian. That's a modern term that has come to be synonymous with slaughter, hypocrisy, and closemindedness to most folks around the world.

When people use the bible to erroneously justify their backwood intolerant viewpoints, is only as easy as you make it for them. I call people out on it.

I just don't get how it's so acceptable today to say crap like that. For example, if I walked into this forum and called all Buddhists 'cultists' someone would have called me on that...

As far as the Da Vinci code goes, I haven't yet made up my mind on that so I can't take any sides. I'm still reading up on the original manuscripts. I agree that Mary Magdalene, as well as most women, is not given her fair attention in the bible. But, I'm not quite sure about how far Dan Brown takes it. I feel until one is more informed on the issue, it's silly to make a snap asessment.

On the subject of Eve, I believe the statement, Thy husband shall rule over you, actually refers to the curse of living in misogynistic/patriarchal society.

I think that it secretly goaded Adam and his descendants to think that while it took all of the wiles of the Serpent to get Eve to disobey, all Eve had to do was say, Here try it! And Adam did. So, instead of saying "Hey, I made a mistake and it's my fault just as much as it is Eve's!", men decided to say "Oh Eve, you are a sinful woman, and now all mankind is doomed 'cause of you!".

I think it was more along the lines of a prophecy, not a deliberate sentence...

I feel that believing the lie that women are tainted because they ate *first* is a ridiculous guilt trip manufactured by misogynistic a-holes, and to believe in it is to only perpetuate their unrightful hold on womankind.
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Old 12-16-2005, 05:36 AM   #34
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Okay, the cultists thing. I am not calling everyone who follows a religion a cultist. Again: I AM NOT CALLING EVERYONE WHO FOLLOWS RELIGION A CULTIST. I am simply saying that in my opinion, Orthodox, inflexible religious foundations which state that you will follow every little command of a religion to the letter, which tell you how to live and that if you disagree you are arguing with God, and which demand to come first over all else in your life, are not dissimilar to the idea of cultism. I did not say "all religion is cultism". I said "all organised religion is AKIN to cultism, in my opinion" (exact words if I recall correctly). Meaning, that the very idea of following a specific religion to the letter, when it's bound to contain at least ideas that you may not have chosen were you thinking purely for yourself, is not dissimilar to cultism. Of course, not all religious people do this, but surely the driving idea behind every major religion is that it's a way of life and you're not supposed to dip in and out and think, oh, I'll have that from Christianity, and I like that in Buddhism so I'll take that. I'm not saying that I personally think this is true, I'm just saying that generally speaking, the major religions offer themselves as a way of life and encourage their followers to live by them as closely as they can.
I agree with you about the snap assessments thing, which is why I did not make any declarative statements about the Mary Magdalene theories. I merely raised them as a possible topic for discussion.
Re: your reading of the Genesis story. I still don't think that I ultimately agree with you, but it's an interesting angle. Plus, the bit about Adam's seething bitterness made me laugh. I can't say I ever thought of it like that, so points! And that's why I started this thread, to hear things like that that I wouldn't have thought of myself. The thing that makes me pause about accepting it is, the whole "your husband will rule over you" comes in the same convo where God chucks them out of Paradise. And since them leaving WAS a direct result of God's decree, I don't see any reason to view his words to Eve as anything other than another additional punishment, as there's nothing to differentiate it from the whole "get out" part. But I definitely take your point, and that's just my opinion.
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Old 12-16-2005, 06:04 AM   #35
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Well, I have kind of always seen it that way...(Adam, Eve, etc...)

Okay- my disclaimer on the following theory is that not all men are like this - have you ever noticed that a lot of men really, really don't like being 'one-upped' by a woman? And a lot of the time, when a girl turns a guy down, he calls her, for whatever reason, a whore and spurns her?

In fact, if you check out the Malleus Mallefactum(the original official 'burning times' propoganda of the Catholic Church) you can read that the Church stated that Adam's 'defective' rib was used to make Eve and that's why she was so inferior. Stupid, isn't it?

See, I have a different take on the whole feminism thing...

Remember when I had previously mentioned Deborah? My favorite Bible character is Deborah. One can assume that she definitely wasn't a virgin - she was married. In her time (Judges) the Jewish people didn't have Kings, they had Judges 'selected' by God (according to Jewish belief). Not only was Deborah a prophet, she was Israel's Judge. And if that isn't a strong enough woman for you, when Israel went to battle the chief would not take his troops to war without her. She even wrote battle songs, one of which is included in the old testament.

She sounds like an amazing role model to me, but is she venerated? Nooooo...

My, of course personal, take on the problem isn't that God (in the Jewish/Christian context) made women lesser and therefore should be rejected/dismissed...I think mankind has always been uncomfortable by the inner strength and outer beauty of women, and we for far too long have let them...

The answer for me wasn't rejecting the idea of God, it is informing myself on the truth, and doing research into the matter. So the next time some a-hole tells me that I can't pick up a chair because that's a man's job (yes that happened at church once) then I can tell him that in his version of the bible, proverbs 31 praises women for being strong and working with their arms. Yeah, that's out of your own freaking bible, so how 'bout you get your own ass in the kitchen, mister. But then again, I no longer participate in organized religion for exactly that reason.

There's a different answer for everyone, but I'm glad that it seems are getting (in different ways) to pretty much the same point... women have had the shit end of the stick for a long time and many peoples' 'translations' of the bible have never helped that out much.
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Old 12-16-2005, 06:13 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xnguela
Is this why your post count's so high?
nope :P it is not!!
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Old 12-16-2005, 06:28 AM   #37
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The Bible to me is a fraud. Who wrote it? Man. How many times has it been translated from one language to another? Hell, it's even been rewritten to suit other peoples views. I can put absolutly no faith in the bible. Or religion for that matter. It's all man made. Oh, and if someone doesn't like all the belifs in one religion they can start another religion that does! It's so horrible.
I would much rather believe what I believe. I know whats right and wrong. I don't need someone preaching to me all the time, and telling me I'm a sinner and going to hell.
I do consider myself a spiritual person. I believe in God or a higher being, but not man made stuff designed to control us.
Anyways, I'll shut up now before I make the incoming flames worse.

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Old 12-16-2005, 06:39 AM   #38
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Wow - I think we may be approaching something like understanding. It's a shame that more people don't have your take on the Bible. In fact, it's a monumental pity that they don't teach it like that in RE. While I don't personally believe in God or any religion, I know people who find it extremely helpful and gain a lot of strength from their faith, and those are people who are able to view it positively, not just as sin and damnation and prohibition. And while I don't necessarily share your take on how the Bible was supposed to be interpreted as a whole - I still think it's kinda slanted against women and abounds with justifications for sexism & homophobia (god, I'm staring to feel a little like a parrot) - I think it's a positive one and if more people saw it like that, this thread would probably never have been started.
I notice that a lot of the views you seem to take issue with come from Catholicism, BH. I learned much of what I know about religion from a very intolerant Catholic school. It's all on the rant thread, I believe, so I won't bore you again. It could go some ways towards explaining why our views towards the Bible are so radically different, though, if we're not even coming from the same branch of Christianity. (I know you're uncomfortable with the term Christian, but since you believe in God, Jesus and the Bible I hope you'll allow the point.)
I do vaguely remember Deborah, although not everything you outlined. I don't remember her being an unmarried non-virgin and still presented as venerable, though. Y'know, I'm so intrigued by the ideas on this thread that I may have to reread the Bible soon. Thanks to everyone who's posted!
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Old 12-16-2005, 06:42 AM   #39
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I agree that it's all man-made, Phayte. And even if it did come from God, it was filtered through the people who wrote it and therefore still can't be perfect, if man is inherently flawed due to original sin. Personally I think God is man-made too, but I think it's cool that you're able to reconcile a belief in a higher power with an attitude of tolerance, and assumption of responsibility for your own beliefs, rather than just following a code. That's a bit of a cop-out in my opinion. If you can take a religious code as guidelines, great, but so many people don't seem able to do that.
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Old 12-16-2005, 06:49 AM   #40
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Well, I hadn't expected the thread to go this way! I was expecting blood, gore, and murder....my guts, your guts, making OUR guts, torn out and flung out along the walls..._^^_

Well, I think what the Catholic Church has done in the past has been mostly about using people...

And Phayte, I hear what your saying about various translations. I have read a bit about translations and wholeheartedly agree that so much can get lost over time. Alas, I don't feel 'up to' debating accuracy/validity of the bible...I think that's something people figure out for themselves. I am also not an expert in that area. The main issue that started this post centered more around the misogynistic ideas that have their roots in the bible.

I wish I had read more of other religions' actual religious text myself. I have studied earth based religions, but, they tend to be a lot less formalized. The more I learn, the more I find that everyone has borrowed symbols, ideas, and holidays from everyone else. It's all very interesting to me...

Wise - thank you for having the guts to actually start a thread to justify earlier comments/discuss our differing ideas.
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Old 12-16-2005, 07:08 AM   #41
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Aah! Blood Sister Power forever, right? Let's like never fight again
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Old 12-16-2005, 07:13 AM   #42
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Never again. Sisters. _^^_
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Old 12-16-2005, 07:53 AM   #43
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Onward Christian Soldiers!!!

Don't you think it is ironic that just the mere whisper of the word christian,and immediatly people begin to battle. I have never heard or seen a conversation about Christianity that didn't end up with hurt feeling, and insults to others. I am not bashing anyone on this site, I am a newbie on this site, but not a newbie in this arena. I have lived as a goth, and a spiritual goth, if that makes sense, but I do not follow a Christian path due to all the hate that it provokes. I really like life, and people, and being Goth dose not prevent me from finding happieness in everything around me, but I prefer the Darkness in things, it touches my soul in a most pleasing way, but I am not refering to Hate, and Sexism, and shit like that. I mean castles, Vamps, Witchery, and Goth in any form. I am attracted to this and always have been, and I am sure that there is a reason for this, a Higher reason. But I, like some of you have Christian friends, and I give them respect that there faith in something beyound themselves deserve. Thats is all.
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Old 12-16-2005, 08:01 AM   #44
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You go on with your bad self, Aragon! You can't have light without darkness, and rather than splitting people down the middle into light/dark, there is no good reason why both can't co-exist in anybody who chooses both, leading to peace and harmony and the adoring of little puppies everywhere. Old, 1TOOMANY? - I believe that between us, we gnetter have just solved all the problems in the world. Thank you, Aragon - good points.
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Old 12-16-2005, 09:22 AM   #45
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I don't belive in the "Bible" thats all I can say....
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Old 12-16-2005, 09:31 AM   #46
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I MENTIONED the Da Vinci Code. I don't think any important part of my argument is based on it. I sure as hell don't offer it as proof for any of my points. Read the fucking Bible? Try reading my fucking posts.

The comment about your mother was not intended to cause offence. It was a JOKE, in response to your "I hope you don't think I'm being a bitch" comment, in an attempt to say "hey we're all adults here, we can discuss this without getting petty - say what you want to say." Clearly, thinking so was wrong. My bad.

No, I don't know as much about religion as you do. I have never studied religion in any academic sense. Which is why I open most of my points with the words "in my opinion". And which is also why I started this thread - to bring in the opinions of people who HAVE.

I'm not qualified to comment on any of the other sacred texts, as I haven't read them. And why do I have to back what I say with research? It's an OPINION. You tell me there are endless possible reading, then you tell me that apparently, the only one of these that's not okay is mine. I've read the thing, therefore I'm allowed to have my own response to it, just like evryone else.

Know my socioanthropology? Why? I'm not talking about the attitudes towards homosexuality in relation to every religion in the world, I'm talking about it in the Bible. I don't see why I need to know the attitudes of every society in the world towards homosexuality to do that.

Yes, it is reflective of its times. Which is why I'm asking if it's still relevant, if it's useful to us still to be digesting instructions on morality taken from a time so different from our own. Answer however the hell you like. And so will I.
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Old 12-16-2005, 02:57 PM   #47
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If you want proof of the many hypocrisies and wrongs of Christianity, look no further than the Bible! This site give syou plenty of nice, god-loving quotes directly from the Bible (yes, I have looked them up myself). http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/bbu84/b...idity/home.htm
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Old 12-16-2005, 03:32 PM   #48
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No, but I think it's different. We're living, changing beings, in a constant process of development. The Bible is a set text - the words are written, and while open to interpretation the basic format of the stories doesn't change. Except possibly in translation, as has been mentioned. Which I don't really know anything about, but from what others have said here it sounds like things do get changed / lost. Which surely adds to my point about the validity of the Bible - how many times does the "Word of God" need to be filtered through us, changed, censored, edited, whatever - before it becomes the word of man?
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Old 12-16-2005, 04:44 PM   #49
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Sure. Which is a reason why I personally don't trust it. I like my truths right where I can see 'em. Incidentally, if it's the word of God, as it purports to be, then surely it SHOULD be true in a concrete sense. It should be THE handbook of universal truth. The Bible makes a lot of statements that mean nothing to me, and the ones that do resonate tend to be things I know from life anyway. Like, I don't need the Bible to tell me that stealing is wrong. I know that from common sense, from the fact that if I take something from someone then I'm depriving them of something which belongs to them, and that they have a right to.
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Old 12-16-2005, 04:58 PM   #50
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Hmm. See your point. But I still think there's an element of free will involved. For example, when I was young and foolish my friends and I used to shoplift now and again. And I used to steal my sister's stuff, all the time. Both things I wouldn't do now, and the society I'm living in hasn't changed that dramatically - it's my own idea of what's right that's changed.
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