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Old 12-21-2008, 02:39 PM   #126
Saya
 
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I thought the Catholic church doesn't believe in limbo anymore?
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Old 12-21-2008, 02:57 PM   #127
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Possibly Roman Catholics do? I'm not sure what the difference is on the religions within the same denomination.
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Old 12-21-2008, 05:40 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Petronius
Drake, are you saying I should be ashamed of my belief?
Yup, pretty much. I don't think I can make it any clearer, so let me simply reiterate. If you worship a personality who's at the head of a system in which innocent people get eternal torture, you have a monstrous belief. You should be ashamed of it.

This is obvious. Why don't people see it? Or is the right question, why do they pretend not to see it? You know what I notice? I notice a lot of people taking umbrage with me for having a crappy attitude, or overgeneralizing, etc., and any or all of those accusations could be fair. What I do not notice is even one person actually defending the doctrine of hell. I'd like to think that's because you guys know already know how pernicious it is. Will you please just tell me that? I'll shut up for this time if you do.

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Christianity is for the strong and for the weak as well.
That's the second time in the past couple days someone has accused me of calling Christians weak (if that's what you mean), but I think you guys are getting me mixed up with someone else. I don't think there's anything uniquely weak about Christians. It's just that Christianity preys on the same basic fear that all of us have. Islam uses the same trick.

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What if I were buddhist? What whould you think about me then?
Then I would have no particular problem. The same would go for Wicca or whatever. I hate the Abrahamic tradition because of how barbaric it is. Religions which are not barbarous don't bother me. Not to say that I might have the occasional difference of opinion. I once got into an argument with a Buddhist guy because he was trying to tell me that an atomic logical proposition could be both true and false at the same time.

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In the past seven years I have suffered from a chronic form of obsessive-compulsive syndrome. I went to a lot of doctors, taken entire kilos of pills, and thought of suicide countless time. And you know what made me feel better?... my faith in God. My faith in God saved me, and now I can live a normal life. So it wasn't the cognitive therapy, it wasn't the pills. It was praying to God every time I felt I could not endure anymore sickness. So maybe having faith in God is not the worst thing in the world.
You're not the only preson with a story like that here. I'm aware that there is some whole process going on with religion that I don't get, and it's not like I'm determined to destroy all religion forever or anything. But as a people we must have some kind of understanding that allows religion to actually change for the better instead of just pretending that something written by ignorant savages thousands of years ago is the ultimate truth which stands for all time. Otherwise it's too easy for religion to become a codification of hate and savagery, as in the case of the Abrahamic tradition. We have to be ready to jettison sick, cultish dogmas like the idea of hell.

The past three times I've become embroiled in religious topics here, I've put out feelers on how to frame up some kind of perspective and approach that would allow me to attack the bad parts of religion without catching all the harmless believers in the crossfire. So far, not even a nibble. I talked with a friend about the same thing for four or five hours the day before yesterday, and we got some ideas onto the table, but nothing really solid. So I'll say it again: You guys tell me how to attack the bad stuff but leave the harmless stuff out of it, and I'll do it. It has to work, though. It can't be something which takes away all my tools and reduces me to begging people to be nicer.

Eeh... to get back to the topic of you personally, let me ask you this. This belief that you signed on for that helped you out of a bad spot. I'm going to guess that it's the idea that there is a plan, or that there's something waiting for you after death, or something like that. Not glee at the notion of how much other people are going to suffer. Right? So is it possible to just get rid of that part? Or has someone sold you on the whole inerrant text idea?
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Old 12-21-2008, 05:47 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Saya
I thought the Catholic church doesn't believe in limbo anymore?
Yeah, they abolished it. The Vatican maketh up, and the Vatican doeth away with.
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Old 12-21-2008, 07:08 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petronius
Drake, are you saying I should be ashamed of my belief? Christianity is for the strong and for the weak as well. You obviously are uneducated about this matter but I guess that doesn't stop you from making a lot of noise... What if I were buddhist? What whould you think about me then? I'm gonna be as sincere as I can be. Probably it is a mistake, but... fuck it.

In the past seven years I have suffered from a chronic form of obsessive-compulsive syndrome. I went to a lot of doctors, taken entire kilos of pills, and thought of suicide countless time. And you know what made me feel better?... my faith in God. My faith in God saved me, and now I can live a normal life. So it wasn't the cognitive therapy, it wasn't the pills. It was praying to God every time I felt I could not endure anymore sickness. So maybe having faith in God is not the worst thing in the world.
This argument is a bit weak. Prayer. It works for you, but this is NOT evidence that Christianity is the answer. You talk of people being intolerant and that it'd be different if it was Buddhist and you're right it would be. Buddhism has not nearly the same amount of cultural impact on the west as Christianity. Christianity IS in some ways an actual threat to many people's liberties. Buddhism isn't. Not only does Christianity say you're going to Hell, but it's also a sociopolitical force that seeks to turn the west into some kind of Christian territory.
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Old 12-21-2008, 07:35 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake Dun
The past three times I've become embroiled in religious topics here, I've put out feelers on how to frame up some kind of perspective and approach that would allow me to attack the bad parts of religion without catching all the harmless believers in the crossfire. So far, not even a nibble. I talked with a friend about the same thing for four or five hours the day before yesterday, and we got some ideas onto the table, but nothing really solid. So I'll say it again: You guys tell me how to attack the bad stuff but leave the harmless stuff out of it, and I'll do it. It has to work, though. It can't be something which takes away all my tools and reduces me to begging people to be nicer.
Hey Drake, sorry I didn't notice the "feelers" you had here earlier, been busy with Christmas related stuff.

I think the best approach to your "surgically-counter-Christian" strategy would be to leave alone any comments or opinions expressed by the person with whom you are discussing IF they are centered around that individual person, but as soon as they cross the line into proselyting, then their statements are as open to critical thinking and criticism as any other proposed social system (anarchy, capitalism etc.), as they are now trying to amass numbers for their "team" instead of explaining personal salvation.

Just a thought.
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Old 12-21-2008, 07:46 PM   #132
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Find a convenient way to sacrifice yourself. Jesus is down with that.
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Old 12-21-2008, 07:53 PM   #133
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Hmm.. okay. So we're talking not so much about what to say, as when to speak up. There may be something to that. Let me chew it over.

Assuming I stripped out all the petty sideswipes at Christians in general and maybe also some of the more vitriolic rhetoric, a strong critical response to a person telling someone that if she kills herself she'll go to the worst part of hell would still be in order, right?
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Old 12-21-2008, 08:01 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake Dun
Hmm.. okay. So we're talking not so much about what to say, as when to speak up. There may be something to that. Let me chew it over.
Yeah, I know that isn't exactly what you were looking for but it was the only idea in the neighborhood that I could express, but I am still meditating on an answer more specific to your target of cruel faith/cruel gods driving people to be cruel (e.g. anti-gay etc).

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Originally Posted by Drake Dun
Assuming I stripped out all the petty sideswipes at Christians in general and maybe also some of the more vitriolic rhetoric, a strong critical response to a person telling someone that if she kills herself she'll go to the worst part of hell would still be in order, right?
It depends: if you are trying to save her life at that moment, and she is a God-fearing Christian, then whatever works is fair in my book. Apologize later, after she has seen a therapist.

But if no life is in danger and you are in a dissection of concepts seeking the truth then I am at a loss to understand your point; why would you agree with her if the point you are trying to make is to illustrate the incongruency of faith and the illusion of hell? O.o
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Old 12-22-2008, 12:07 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by KontanKarite
This argument is a bit weak. Prayer. It works for you, but this is NOT evidence that Christianity is the answer. You talk of people being intolerant and that it'd be different if it was Buddhist and you're right it would be. Buddhism has not nearly the same amount of cultural impact on the west as Christianity. Christianity IS in some ways an actual threat to many people's liberties. Buddhism isn't. Not only does Christianity say you're going to Hell, but it's also a sociopolitical force that seeks to turn the west into some kind of Christian territory.
Ok Drake. You are obviously a smart person and I was thinking we should end this ideological fight. The Bible says "hate the sin, not the sinner", so going from that I tell you : hate the belief, not the believer. :-)

I'll stick to my way and you do the same with yours. So what do you say? , are we cool?
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Old 12-22-2008, 03:01 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by HumanePain
It depends: if you are trying to save her life at that moment, and she is a God-fearing Christian, then whatever works is fair in my book. Apologize later, after she has seen a therapist.
Well, yeah. There is that extra factor in the picture in this case. It's for that reason that I was originally going to just keep my mouth shut, but I noticed two or three people had already said there was no hell anyway, so I launched in. It's conceivable that you could have a real scenario in which a person's life is actually dangling by the single thread of their fear of punishment after death, but I doubt that's what we had here. And in the long or even medium term, sweeping ugliness like threats of damnation out of the picture has got to be good for people's mental wellbeing, rather than bad.

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But if no life is in danger and you are in a dissection of concepts seeking the truth then I am at a loss to understand your point; why would you agree with her if the point you are trying to make is to illustrate the incongruency of faith and the illusion of hell? O.o
I don't understand your question. Did you mean to type "argue" instead of "agree"?
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Old 12-22-2008, 03:03 AM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petronius
Ok Drake. You are obviously a smart person and I was thinking we should end this ideological fight. The Bible says "hate the sin, not the sinner", so going from that I tell you : hate the belief, not the believer. :-)

I'll stick to my way and you do the same with yours. So what do you say? , are we cool?
I don't have anything against you personally. As long as you're comfortable with the idea that anytime you preach hellfire and brimstone while I'm around it's going to provoke a strong response, we're cool. I do wish you would answer my question though.
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Old 12-22-2008, 04:38 AM   #138
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I do wish you would answer my question though.

Could you repeat the question please ?, I'm not sure which one it is.
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Old 12-22-2008, 05:12 AM   #139
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This is the question I was referring to:

Quote:
Eeh... to get back to the topic of you personally, let me ask you this. This belief that you signed on for that helped you out of a bad spot. I'm going to guess that it's the idea that there is a plan, or that there's something waiting for you after death, or something like that. Not glee at the notion of how much other people are going to suffer. Right? So is it possible to just get rid of that part? Or has someone sold you on the whole inerrant text idea?
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Old 12-22-2008, 05:48 AM   #140
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It is possible to get rid of the hell part, but then I don't think it would still be called real Christianity. I consider my religion (christian orthodoxy) a very "heavy metal" religion. There is no middle ground. And I'm fine with that. It represents me.

And keep in mind that there is a big difference between catholics and orthodoxs. Ortodox people never burned witches on a stake, never sold "forgiveness documents", they never interfered in politics because it is considered a too worldly matter, they practice forgives of enemies and helping the less fortunate. And most important: we hate the fucking vatican!
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Old 12-22-2008, 11:07 AM   #141
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[I'm serious] I would've committed suicide long go if it wasn't for the fear of burning in hell, so I need to know away around it. Thank you.^^

Wow, you're nuts.
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Old 12-22-2008, 11:17 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Drake Dun
I don't understand your question. Did you mean to type "argue" instead of "agree"?
No, I meant agree, here is what you typed that confused me:

"Assuming I stripped out all the petty sideswipes at Christians in general and maybe also some of the more vitriolic rhetoric, a strong critical response to a person telling someone that if she kills herself she'll go to the worst part of hell would still be in order, right?"

I missed that you were not saying the latter part directly, but another person was saying it, and you would then criticize that person. Sorry, it was late and I didn't read it accurately.
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Old 12-22-2008, 04:03 PM   #143
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Korinna, at least I'm not throwing rocks at him/her.
I'd love to see you throw rocks at someone over the internet.
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Old 12-22-2008, 07:04 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by HumanePain
I missed that you were not saying the latter part directly, but another person was saying it, and you would then criticize that person. Sorry, it was late and I didn't read it accurately.
Ah, that explains. Sometimes I type rather tortuous sentences. :P
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Old 12-23-2008, 03:38 AM   #145
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Join the fuckin' army.
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Old 12-23-2008, 01:15 PM   #146
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I am sorry, but if you really wanted to kill yourself you would have done it already.

Hell will be much more pleasant than wussy-footing around with those cocks up in Heaven.
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Old 12-23-2008, 05:07 PM   #147
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does one of your parents drink and abuse you and your siblings? if that is the case and you commit suicide the person will probably drink more and abuse your sibling even worse. so that would be selfish. and you and your siblings are probably close since you go through that together think about how they would feel.

personally i believe in suicide only if life is really shit and dying really is an only solution.but there are other solutions, since eventually you will grow up and move out or you could call child services.

oh and you believe in god then you probably believe in the fact that he knows what you are thinking so there is no way to cheat him. if for example you go into some dark alley at night and get murdered he will know what your intentions were and you might as well have taken your life with your own hand.
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Old 12-24-2008, 02:39 AM   #148
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An interesting way to kill yourself is not to do it in "one shot", like opening a major artery, poison, hanging. Do it by going about your normal day to day activities. Going to school, work. shopping. But the difference would be you are doing it all without a reguard for your personal safety. In other words, go about your normal day, being as reckless as possable. I call it "living life with the safeties off". The "safeties" are your natural urge to protect yourself from harm. If you turn that off, you will stand a good chance of getting killed. I have done it, it is thrilling. I kid you not.
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Old 12-24-2008, 11:56 PM   #149
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I'm just gonna assume the original poster is dead and chillin' with Jesus on this Christmas Day.


Because she stopped posting quite some time ago.
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Old 12-25-2008, 02:07 AM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petronius
Always remember that God repays people who suffer but don't commit suicide or curse His name. Your suffering on this earth is nothing compared to hell. The lowest pit of hell is reserved to priests who don't fulfill their duties and the ones who kill themselves. And think about Blaise Pascal's Bet : 1. If we believe in God and do His will, and God does exist, we gain a place in haven.
2. If we do not believe in God, and God does not exist, we have
neither gained nor lost anything.
3. If God exists and we do not believe, we lose EVERYTHING.
Actually, Dante didn't put people who committed suicide in the lowest level of Hell. And obviously, that's true since it's a book and everything, the guy MUST HAVE been there.
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