Roman Catholics.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Unimatrix 00

As has been said before, if you want to argue about religions, then GO TO ANOTHER THREAD. This thread is for Catholic People and their discussions. Not a thread to bash religion.

There will be absolutely no thread in this site in which only 'certain people' can participate.
That's fascist.
Believe it or not, by us fighting and antagonizing each other, we are way more open-minded than you who only wants harmony between people of a specific niche.

[Unimatrix 00]

Godslayer Gillian is trying to push my buttons again, but I will not fold.

Keep on talking, Godslayer Jillian. But you're not going to wind me up.

[Tam Li Hua]

Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus

I'm assuming that the 'evidence' of which you speak is your vague feeling or sensation of assurance that god exists, an impression proceeding from no extant basis. Ideas based on no evidence don't really count as evidence.

Nope. I'm talking about experiences I've had with the Spiritual Realm that's proven it's existence beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Yes, that's true, but the majority of people are slightly less sadistic than the individual proposed in this hypothetical, and refrain from hating and causing harm to other people not the absence of an "excuse", but in the absence of a reason.

I think you must have a slightly less pessimistic view of humanity than I do.

If the creator of the universe declared a certain group to be evil, I would certainly not be well-disposed to the idea that the group in question was anything but evil--

And yet, there -were- people in the Bible who argued with God constantly whenever He told them to do something in particular.

fortunately, I'm intelligent enough to recognize that the universe was not fabricated by sapient hands, and therefore that there exists no creator to issue such decrees, but this knowledge is not shared by everyone.

That is not knowledge, but a theory, since it can not be scientifically proven that a creator does -not- exist. *wink*

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

I completely agree. Like I said before, if someone wants to do harm, he's going to do it regardless of religion; believing in God does -not- make you an insane lunatic no more than not believing in Him.

Oh no?
Can you name any large scale tragedies caused by non-believers?

[Tam Li Hua]

Ophelia: Communist China. Japanese kamikaze soldiers. Your average serial killer.

And so on and so forth.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

Oh no?
Can you name any large scale tragedies caused by non-believers?

The millions of deaths caused by the totalitarian regimes of Stalin and Mao?

They always bring that up. And why shouldn't they? It's still stupid to hate the control tactics of a religion but not those of a secular system.

Either you understand that by your own free will you are perfectly capable of living a good life, or you don't and need someone else to tell you what to do. It doesn't matter if that someone is immortal or not.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

Japanese kamikaze soldiers.

Kamikaze soldiers prayed to the spirits of their ancestors before killing themselves for the spiritual glory of all their family past, present and future.

Your average serial killer.

Serial killers tend to fall into two categories:
- Those who seem 'nice people' with American Dream values that help around in their church
- And those lunatics who are clearly deranged because they believe God speaks to them through AC/DC

[gothicusmaximus]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

Nope. I'm talking about experiences I've had with the Spiritual Realm that's proven it's existence beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Yeah, 'spiritual experiences'. 'Grace'. Vague feelings and sensations without a practical source.

I think you must have a slightly less pessimistic view of humanity than I do.

I guess so, if you maintain that the majority of people are marauding sociopaths who only pretend to ever be motivated in their less-than benevolent acts by an impetus beyond a desire to see others in pain.

And yet, there -were- people in the Bible who argued with God constantly whenever He told them to do something in particular.

Tam, those people probably don't exist, and certainly never argued with god.
Besides, the circumstances under which biblical characters debated divinity usually involved him commanding that they sacrifice a child or something.

That is not knowledge, but a theory, since it can not be scientifically proven that a creator does -not- exist. *wink*

No, it's knowledge. As I said, when science deals with a binary like "God either exists or doesn't", absence of evidence correlates to evidence of absence. The fact that a creator's existence is not only unproven, but suggested by no evidence, effectively demonstrates that said creator is fictional.

[Delkaetre]

God is... well, dangerous.
God is, to the best of my knowledge, at least partially responsible for my father's death. He had cancer, and he chose faith based healing instead of proper medical treatment. Because he had faith in some superhuman force, he put his trust and life into that instead of taking up the available medical options. God is an excuse to stop thinking and acting for yourself, to make everything the fault of some higher power.
God is an excuse for sectarianism, for 'my version is better than your version' as in Northern Ireland. God is manifest in a thousand different ways, the majority of which argue with and offend each other, often to the point of violence. See Northern Ireland, Gaza, treatment of the 'heathen' native tribes in any area that Christianity moved into- Australian aborigines, for one. God is the ultimate excuse for violence, as a Holy war is somehow less offensive to many sensibilites than the abhorrent but honest admission of war for resources.
Without God to blame our wars and foolishness upon, we have to use other excuses and actually question our reasons. Without God, we cannot grab a country and claim it is for God when all we really wanted was the farmland, the oil, the diamonds. It is belief in God that lets us say 'women are weak', 'homosexuals are unnatural', 'people of other faiths are heretical, misguided infidels'. Without God, we have fewer excuses and need to actually look at why we think these things.
God is dangerous.

I have no god. You may have a god if you like, but please do not presume to tell me that your god is somehow right, compassionate, just, and definitely the Proper god despite all the other, equally illogical and biased, versions of god that exist. Your god is yours. It is not mine, it is not anyone else's, and there's no reason for it to be. It does not define anyone's ethics but yours- I define my own ethics and live well by them. Without God, I am kind to others. Without God, I look after my friends of all sexualities, faiths and ethnicities.

/rant


Without God, I am safer. Your Catholic God is no better than the others, equally open to interpretation, misinterpretation, editing, mistranslation, human error. The God of the Catholics is no better, wiser or more pleasant than the God of any of the Protestant variants. The God of the Catholics just gets more wine and prettier robes.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

The millions of deaths caused by the totalitarian regimes of Stalin and Mao?

They always bring that up. And why shouldn't they? It's still stupid to hate the control tactics of a religion but not those of a secular system.

Either you understand that by your own free will you are perfectly capable of living a good life, or you don't and need someone else to tell you what to do. It doesn't matter if that someone is immortal or not.

Really, they were non-believers?

[Delkaetre]

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

Really, they were non-believers?

They were killing for the state and their political dogma rather than claiming religious dogma.

[Godslayer Jillian]

It's more than that. Strict atheism was specifically in their ideals. The eradication of all forms of metaphysical illusions such as a God was in their plans of action.
Whether this were because they wanted full compliance only to the state, or the slightly less totalitarian forcing of people into reason, Stalin and Mao were openly and proudly atheists.

[jack_the_knife]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47P59ha9k9s

I thought this has some relevance to the thread.

[Godslayer Jillian]

"Them people have no right!
How dare they include Chinese dragons in a catholic song!
Do they mock everything sacred in this way?
These little sacraments are things they like, and believe in. They should never be tainted with other religions I don't believe in, even if you don't agree with that.
Shame on all you."

- Uni

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

It's more than that. Strict atheism was specifically in their ideals. The eradication of all forms of metaphysical illusions such as a God was in their plans of action.
Whether this were because they wanted full compliance only to the state, or the slightly less totalitarian forcing of people into reason, Stalin and Mao were openly and proudly atheists.

Ah, well then.
While I feel slightly foolish then, it's still nuts to claim that being religious doesn't make you more likely to commit atrocities.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Being faithful and compliant to a higher authority is the biggest reason for committing atrocities.
Remember there were rarely any Nazi sympathizers, only good Germans.
However, compliance and faith are only occasionally seen in secular systems, while it's a requirement in religious systems.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

Being faithful and compliant to a higher authority is the biggest reason for committing atrocities.
Remember there were rarely any Nazi sympathizers, only good Germans.
However, compliance and faith are only occasionally seen in secular systems, while it's a requirement in religious systems.

Right.
That's what I was getting at when I was talking about different reasons why having faith/being illogical is a bad thing.

[badteccy]

[quote=Unimatrix 00;518768]But we accept women, and gay peeps, and peeps of different culture and race, we also accept people of different religions.QUOTE]


Since when?

[badteccy]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

Jilly: Have you ever spoken to women in these more conservative religious denominations and ask if they feel they are discriminated against?

Obviously they are going to say they don't feel that way because that is all they are taught, but everyone else can see that their are many blatent sexims in the religion.

[badteccy]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

I disagree. Faith in something beyond the physical has helped a lot of people. .

Oops..one more time.

I really hate that shit "oh, my faith really helped me through a rough time in my life!"
Fuckshit, why can't people believe in themselves? Or pull out of a "rough time" with their own devices, like common sense or intelligence? Why thank something imaginary for getting out of a bad place?
Furthermore, everyone has highs and lows in life...it's not some magic man that "makes things better" if you pray a lot. It's such bullshit, and I'm not just talking about the Catholics.
Also, I'm sick of jerks thinking I lost my faith because of some traumatic incident in my life...that's so stupid. Everyone has shit happen to them, I lost it because it's all bullcrap.

[tekajo]

i was born to a Catholic family, as a baby had a Catholic baptism, made my First Holy Communion, did the Confirmation thing, and this...

Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus

How do you assess the 'purity' of a religious sect? My instinct is to base my evaluation of a denomination's 'purity' on its similarity to the original teachings of the parent doctrine's founder, in which case I wouldn't necessarily go so far as to say that a bureaucratic, property-hoarding institution that metes out indulgences to its followers from its headquarters in an autonomous city-state is the 'purest form' of a radical death cult whose central tenets comprise humility, charity, and letting lions eat you without so much as twitching.
Of course, the "purity" of a religion is a totally moot point... let's see, what metaphor should I use to drive this point home? Oh, I know-- no matter how "pure", say, piss is, it's still piss.

...pretty much sums up my current feelings on Catholicism.

[Corpsey]

http://www.biblebelievers.com/babylon/

That book is worth a read if you want to. It was written by a priest about 150 years ago comparing the Catholic Church to ancient Babylon and claiming that Babylon The Great (The Whore riding the Beast) is the Catholic Church.


As for my feelings on Catholicism:
Without them, Monty Python wouldn't have been able to make as many entertaining skits.

[Renatus]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

There will be absolutely no thread in this site in which only 'certain people' can participate.
That's fascist.
Believe it or not, by us fighting and antagonizing each other, we are way more open-minded than you who only wants harmony between people of a specific niche.

But in certain situations restricting things to certain people is necessery due to the fact that all it does is lead to pointless arguments, and in the real world pointless violence. There is a reason why the police work to prevent democrats from getting into republican presidental conventions, and vice versa. Neither side will ever win the argument of religion versus science, just like with democrats versus republicans. If you want to discuss it create a separate thread built for that purpose.

Quite frankly you could say preventing we Catholics from discussing our religion in peace fascist. You could call the fact that the secret service prevents random people from talking to the president about how they think what he is doing is wrong facist, especialy since he is in an elected position in a home paid for and owned by the American people. If you want to get to an extreme you could call the separation of the land and sea fascist. I am sick and tired of people pulling out the f-bomb just so they have an excuse to start an argument in an innocent thread.

[CrimsonPythonidae]

Yeah, my mum was raised Catholic, went to one of those schools run by nuns. You should see her now, she's a fucking mess.

[Malice In Wonderland]

Originally Posted by Pyre

This thread was completely and utterly derailed from its decent intentions. If you guys want to argue religion, then take it to the religion thread. Although I am nonreligious I am still very offended when people find it necessary to attack others' beliefs. The only "religion" worth attacking is Scientology, because it's the cult from the depths of Hell itself--probably the only "religion" I am not opposed to being attacked.

Why is Scientology more of a cult than any other religion?