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Politics "Under democracy, one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule -and both commonly succeed, and are right." -H.L. Menken

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Old 12-08-2011, 09:27 PM   #1
AshleyO
 
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Taking the Randian to task.

Angel Mae Glutz
I saw this video for the first time today, less than 24 hours after I was told that former US President George W. Bush Jr. is being charged with War Crimes. Despite my desire to not be a political person, it is nearly impossible to ignore the fact that there are some things that are seriously wrong with our country. The truth is that I have lived in fear since the passing of The Patriot Act and this only serves to strengthen that fear...

Angel Mae Glutz
The most terrifying thing to me is the notion that under The Patriot Act, simply posting this status or any of you liking it could be considered an act of terrorism or traitorous. If deemed so we could all be arrested without warrants and held without the rights of a US Citizen.

Eric, it is my intention to acquire my pistol permit in 2012 and purchase my first hand gun.

I refuse to be a victim. I refuse to sit back and watch my freedoms be devoured one at a time by slick wording and crooked politics.

Joshua Warm Vertigo Conner I agree, Angel. It's a shame that one would think they can avoid being political though. Inaction in politics IS being political. I agree with this though. Something must indeed be done about our government being manipulated to serve the interests of a select few.

Violette Lilly Rose Patrick Its a shame because the "United States" was supposed to mean "United" & here those who are rich & greedy have become intoxicated with a huge "PowerTrip"!!Lets not forget... The world is contaminated with nuclear waste & were the Guinea Pig's!

Joshua Warm Vertigo Conner The workers should be united as well. The John Galts seem to be united and unionized against the proletariat. It is only right that the workers and the poor respond in kind to unionize against preference for enterprise.

Angel Mae Glutz I don't have anything against the John Galts of the world. The John Galts aren't crooked. The John Galts pay their employees fairly and work equally as hard. My problem is with the crooked political machine that takes Rearden Metal and gives it to their friends, destroying the backbone of our economy and industry. If John Galts and Dagny Taggerts were running the show we wouldn't be in this mess...

Joshua Warm Vertigo Conner Was it fair wages back in the Industrial Revolution? I'm sure that you know.. they deserved to be in those kinds of working conditions for the pay they got. It's good to know that the John Galts can be trusted.

Angel Mae Glutz The minimum wage was higher then than it is now. Unemployment was lower and homelessness was lower during The Great Depression. John Galts might not have had OSHA but they weren't asking an impoverish government for bailouts.

Joshua Warm Vertigo Conner ‎"Believing that if the John Galts were the only ones in charge, everything would be fine is a totalitarian solution. It is saying that if ONLY our master/dictator was this moral paragon, everything would be fine. Idolizing the Galts of the world is asking simply for a better master."

Joshua Warm Vertigo Conner Also, can you cite a source about minimum wage? If it was higher in the 1800s based on the altruistic nature of our Galts, then why is it that the minimum wage would be lower now simply because it is a bare minimum that must be paid to a worker? If the master felt it more fair to pay a living wage, then why is it that they would resist a compulsion when they should EXCEED the compulsion?

Joshua Warm Vertigo Conner I'm quoting a friend. However, I propose that it is FAIR for workers to take propriety of their labors and tell the owners of an industry that manipulation, exploitation, and putting the bottom line before the common good of the worker WILL NOT HAPPEN. Is it fair to do that?

Joshua Warm Vertigo Conner
Also, if the Industrial Revolution was actually a decent quality of life, there wouldn't have been an advent of worker unions. If the master doesn't want a rebellion, you treat your constituents with the utmost level of care and respect. But, as history has shown, there are no benevolent masters. I propose not that we look for the John Galts. Their enterprise is not more important than the lives of billions of people. Socialism states that WE AS THE WORKERS DETERMINE WHAT IS FAIR. Capitalism states the WHAT I DETERMINE IS FAIR.
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Old 12-08-2011, 09:30 PM   #2
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Who are you quoting? I disagree completely. The hero of Atlas Shrugged symbolized a white collar survival of the fittest.

As for a source, one need to nearly google cost of living and inflation. The value of an American dollar now vs. any other point in our nation's history.

"If it was higher in the 1800s based on the altruistic nature of our Galts, then why is it that the minimum wage would be lower now simply because it is a bare minimum that must be paid to a worker?" This question, grammatically, makes no sense.

Calling an employer a "master" is trite. If you base your employment on the morality of the employer then you are missing the entire point of Ayn Rand's works and the value of her philosophy.

I do not think it is likely that the individual will be put before the all mighty dollar either but that flaw is inherent in all economic systems and is the fault of the individuals, not the system.

John Galt was a character in a novel whose objective was to force people to think and work for themselves. It was a statement against the then new welfare system that was taxing workers to provide for those who didn't work. In the novel, John Galt was a business man who decided he was tired of breaking his back for everyone else. He took what he earned and left before the government's redistribution of wealth could ruin him.

Joshua Warm Vertigo Conner
You mean like those that are doing that very thing to our economy now? Angel, this is exactly the point. For a worker, it matters not that we call them master or boss or psychologically distance ourselves from the master/slave dichotomy. The fact remains that the boss contains the kill switch to the worker's access to basic needs. I understand the inherent hatred for laziness, but Rand proposed a system so vicious to a small minority that it was outright draconian. As a red anarchist, I'll leave you with this proposal. Keep your industry. Think you own the labors of the workers all you want. But let's do away with a police force. If property of industry is a right that everyone would naturally respect, we have no need for a security force to keep the masses at bay.

Joshua Warm Vertigo Conner
‎"John Galt was a character in a novel whose objective was to force people to think and work for themselves."

Wait. Why is this his decision to make?

It was a statement against the then new welfare system that was taxing workers to provide for those who didn't work.

So do we stay vigilant against these poisonous people? Does the most successful get to decide who is a producer and who is a parasite? How can the bosses make those distinctions? Are they omnipotent?

In the novel, John Galt was a business man who decided he was tired of breaking his back for everyone else. He took what he earned and left before the government's redistribution of wealth could ruin him."

Right there. He felt his own enterprise was more important than the lives of ANYONE. So because we are BORN against our will, for those who do not wish to fall in line with the enterprise of an individual and who do not care to be entrepreneurs themselves, it is right to enslave their lives until death and discard them when "it's good for business." Angel, human beings are more valuable than that.

Angel Mae Glutz
Ah! There is the problem with this conversation, Conner. We have completely different ideas and you are simply, in a political sense, trying to convince an atheist to believe in your god. All the way back to your earliest comment about how not believing in god is a decision, or not being involved in politics is being involved.

I think that if we have become slaves of Enron, Viagra, and Microsoft, that the problem isn't those companies, it's us, for being sheep. I support the occupy movement because it means people are breaking out of the pens and refusing to be herded further along. In my opinion though, there isn't a single person on the streets who would still be there if they were in the 1%.

We're all sheep or wolves, and all the talk about fairness you can muster isn't going to dull a wolf's teeth one bit.
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Old 12-08-2011, 09:35 PM   #3
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Joshua Warm Vertigo Conner
So then you agree that it is right for the 99% to take propriety over their labors and to unionize as consumers and decide how their labors are distributed and handled. As it is, they are doing it one way or another. Through the state, when the workers dominate industry by that particular force, that is in a way, a kind of communism. But when workers unionize as individuals and collectively protect each other without the permission of the state or the companies from the tyranny of the haves that is called Anarchy. Also, is it retarded people's fault that they're not the 1%?

Joshua Warm Vertigo Conner And I don't really want to bring religious behavior into this, but someone IS deifying John Galt. As it is, I do not believe that John Galt as a proprietor has my best interests at heart. I do not believe in John Galt and I do not believe in his altruism. So I propose a direct democracy in our industries and our economy so that ALL the wolves have a chance to be a pack that looks out for the welfare of the pack.

Angel Mae Glutz
Oh dear... you are handing me a loaded gun with those questions. I don't know why you keep pushing this crap rhetoric at me. I am NOT deifying John Galt, I'm saying that YOU do not fully understand the concept the character was meant to represent. The Objectivist ideal is that it's not the employer's responsibility to cater to you. It is your responsibility to make yourself such a valuable asset that terminating you would be stupidity on your employer's behalf.

The average person is a sheep not a wolf. Don't confuse the pack with a herd.

Joshua Warm Vertigo Conner

So the goal of Objectivism is to be a really impressive slave. Okay then. I understand. Impress the boss first, EARN YOUR POSITION according to his standards and not your own or be even better and exceed HIS standards.

Joshua Warm Vertigo Conner But above ALL ELSE, his authority is law.

Angel Mae Glutz Yepp and if you don't like it build your own company from the ground up and employ your own workers... there isn't a single economic model in which everyone is self employed.

Joshua Warm Vertigo Conner Wow... *shakes head* Starting your own company to buck the authority of a boss is the only solution? Angel. Why is it wrong for the proletariat to take propriety for their labors and say "We will not be a commodity that will be so easily bought and sold."?

Joshua Warm Vertigo Conner Also, it is understandable that your average person does not have the capital to start their own business and it is undemocratic to propose that starting your own business is the final solution. Again, not everyone is an entrepreneur and not everyone desires to be one. So why is it that hard working people can not take propriety over their own labors collectively and demand their own standards?

Joshua Warm Vertigo Conner Also, I must say that we should keep this conversation open. I think we've really shared a lot of good ideas and people deserve to see this intellectual sparring match.

Angel Mae Glutz
Umm, I'm exhausted and I cannot think of a better way to say this, so I'm just going to say it then go to sleep.

I DO NOT FUCKING CARE. I could not care less about the retards' fair shot at financial success. It is a sign of my good nature that I let them slide a cart at me when I walk into Walmart. I don't care about the economic success of the average person. It's great that people are standing up for themselves but my interest ends there. Trying to get me to care about things of this nature is a true exercise in futility. Especially when doing so by proposing ideals I find idiotic and using one of my favourite works of fiction out of context.

I'm going to sleep now. Further comments won't make me care. They won't change my opinions or the opinions of me to anyone who really knows me. All they will accomplish is irritating me, and I hate being irritated.

Angel Mae Glutz I'll keep the convo open but my participation in it is at an end.

Joshua Warm Vertigo Conner I wasn't interested in changing your mind, Angel. I KNOW I wont change your mind. The goal was never to change you. But I'm glad you're opting to let this stay up. That's classy.
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Old 12-08-2011, 09:44 PM   #4
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I hate people like that.
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real classy
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Old 12-08-2011, 11:09 PM   #5
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I'm totally lost... who are these people?
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Old 12-09-2011, 01:06 AM   #6
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I'm totally lost... who are these people?
You and me both... I'll have to read it again in the morning when I'm more lucid.
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Old 12-09-2011, 01:34 AM   #7
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Can I get the stupid lazy person's version? That is a lot of text to read. Maybe a short description of what exactly it is?
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Old 12-09-2011, 02:19 AM   #8
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No, I can't condense it. It would compromise the integrity of the conversation.

If it's too much information to read, so be it.
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Old 12-09-2011, 07:42 AM   #9
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I read it, I would just like to know some sort of background on who these people are and the context of the conversation. Was it some sort of interview? I tried googling them and just got Facebook pages and MySpace pages - but I don't know if those pages are actually for these people.
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Old 12-09-2011, 10:09 AM   #10
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So I propose a direct democracy in our industries and our economy so that ALL the wolves have a chance to be a pack that looks out for the welfare of the pack.

I was going to say something about the sheep/wolf analogy that people often spout, but that sums it up nicely. Wolves are pack animals that do things for the good of the PACK, not the good of the WOLF(for the most part).

In discussions like this it shows the disturbing mentality of people who not only see wolves as vicious killers, but identify themselves as such. While seeing the rest of the world as 'sheep' upon which to prey.

Crows, grab some coffee and cop a squat. It's worth the read.

Queen once wrote a song about people like that.
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Old 12-09-2011, 11:06 AM   #11
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Nah, I wasn't asking for a condensed version, just a premise of what it was, to see if I would be interested. But you know what, I just needed some coffee and just read it.

Graus I completely agree with you, I usually hate the negative wolf analogies. It was nice to hear the analogy reversed.

I am so glad I don't personally know people like Angel, I would have to punch them in the face.
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Old 12-09-2011, 11:19 AM   #12
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It's not just about the negative wolf analogies, but that people willingly(whether subconsciously or not) identify themselves as something so negative, like a relentless killer. Granted, most people DO get the wolf thing wrong. They ARE dangerous and do often kill outsiders, but they ultimately work for the good of the pack. They are communal creatures and anyone who enjoys Ayn Rand should better identify themselves with sharks.
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Old 12-09-2011, 11:22 AM   #13
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Queen once wrote a song about people like that.
I totally wanted that link to take me to a clip of Fat Bottomed Girls.
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Old 12-09-2011, 11:26 AM   #14
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I read it, I would just like to know some sort of background on who these people are and the context of the conversation. Was it some sort of interview? I tried googling them and just got Facebook pages and MySpace pages - but I don't know if those pages are actually for these people.
Joshua is me. Angel is a friend of mine. She's into Ayn Rand and is terrified about the Patriot Act and the new bill being proposed stating that the US is a battleground.

Being that she said she always tried to avoid being political, I responded in kind as to how strange it is that those who think they can be a-political is in essence a truly a-political stance.

She's been a tattoo artist for years and has been virtually shielded and isolated from society at large in exchange for a population sample that pays her bills so that she can continue to be an artist.
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Old 12-09-2011, 11:33 AM   #15
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It's not just about the negative wolf analogies, but that people willingly(whether subconsciously or not) identify themselves as something so negative, like a relentless killer. Granted, most people DO get the wolf thing wrong. They ARE dangerous and do often kill outsiders, but they ultimately work for the good of the pack. They are communal creatures and anyone who enjoys Ayn Rand should better identify themselves with sharks.
I think most people would fit under the analogy of a wolf though. Yes being thought a killer is negative, but let's tone it down a bit. People usually attack other people outside their circles, or people trying to come into a new circle. That can be seen everywhere. But they still support the people they are already in a kind of pack with.

I haven't met any Ayn Rand followers, so I couldn't say about a shark mentality. But if the above is any indication, then it would probably fit. As where they are completely self serving and only join others for a self serving purpose. Essentially, if they don't believe in self sacrifice in the smallest degree, then yeah, it would fit.

I don't exactly know where i was going with this. Kinda distracted at the moment, but hopefully you can find what i was trying to say nonetheless.
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Old 12-09-2011, 11:43 AM   #16
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Crows, it's cool. Looks like we're on the same page.
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Old 12-09-2011, 11:45 AM   #17
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Erich Fromm "The Art of Loving"

It is improper love to give and see it as a sacrifice. Proper love is giving just for the sake of giving BECAUSE giving is rewarding and NOT a state of self denial.

If to give something so much is causing one a state of self denial, then it's improper love and misguided.

How can one properly love if they lack the capacity to actually give and share themselves with their fellow man?

Being self serving isn't even close to being honest, ethical, or fair.
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Old 12-09-2011, 11:54 AM   #18
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Erich Fromm looks like someone I need to know more about.
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Old 12-09-2011, 12:18 PM   #19
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I can't understand people who say they're not interested in politics. To take this position is to basically relinquish all interest in your rights as a worker, as a homeowner/tenant, your treatment should you ever be accused of a crime, the uses your taxes are put to, and oh yeah - pretty much everything about your life.

Edit: Also, that Angel bitch is fucking abhorrent. "I don't care about the retards' fair shot at financial success"? Fuck you.
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Old 12-09-2011, 12:32 PM   #20
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Angel Mae Glutz
Umm, I'm exhausted and I cannot think of a better way to say this, so I'm just going to say it then go to sleep.

I DO NOT FUCKING CARE. I could not care less about the retards' fair shot at financial success. It is a sign of my good nature that I let them slide a cart at me when I walk into Walmart. I don't care about the economic success of the average person. It's great that people are standing up for themselves but my interest ends there. Trying to get me to care about things of this nature is a true exercise in futility. Especially when doing so by proposing ideals I find idiotic and using one of my favourite works of fiction out of context.

I'm going to sleep now. Further comments won't make me care. They won't change my opinions or the opinions of me to anyone who really knows me. All they will accomplish is irritating me, and I hate being irritated.
"I'm going to deliver MY argument now, but I'm not going to listen to your response. So even if it consists of my arse handed to me on a silver platter, it doesn't mean I "lose" the debate, 'cause I already quit! FEEL MY POWAH!! But, before I do that, here's MY view on politics (which by the way, I'm totes not that into)."

... Ugh. What a dickhole.
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Old 12-09-2011, 12:58 PM   #21
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Erich Fromm looks like someone I need to know more about.
You have to be careful when reading Erich Fromm. When you read him, you initially assume that he may be just religious and there is a part of his book that explicitly states that a homosexual can not love because they are broken.

But if we are to assume that Fromm's definition of love is more or less the best way to use the faculty, then he may not be condemning homosexuality for its own sake, but that anthropologically and socially, a homosexual's access to experiencing and giving love is truly broken because society/western culture actively seeks to deny the homosexual access to the experience.

You must must MUST consider that he's not evangelizing, but speaking from a purely psychological and anthropological point. So when he draws wisdom from Christianity for example, he's not using it as a means of proposing Christian superiority except for that he is using it as a tool that is readily available in western culture. So I would propose that is it NOT reasonable to speak of the faculty of love to a Westerner based on what they're initially familiar with?

Make no mistake, "The Art of Love" does not seek to limit its audience, but to blanket as much of the west as possible with his philosophy. That is explicitly why I originally was bothered by his texts. I was looking at it from an atheist perspective (a perspective in which my access to love is culturally broken) and NOT as a Westerner.

His book is actually quite brilliant.
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Old 12-09-2011, 01:48 PM   #22
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I DO NOT FUCKING CARE. I could not care less about the retards' fair shot at financial success. It is a sign of my good nature that I let them slide a cart at me when I walk into Walmart. I don't care about the economic success of the average person. It's great that people are standing up for themselves but my interest ends there. Trying to get me to care about things of this nature is a true exercise in futility. Especially when doing so by proposing ideals I find idiotic and using one of my favourite works of fiction out of context.
This makes me so fucking angry.
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Old 12-09-2011, 02:22 PM   #23
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The thing is, this is an example of the American exceptionalism mind-set.

Now, the IRONY of Rand's philosophy is that it is centered around rational self interest.

However, and here it comes, when it is in the rational self interests of a group of people (proletariat) to take propriety over their labors, it is entirely permissible and okay so long as one can essentially get away with it.

When we reduce this axiom of Randian thought to its final conclusion and realize that it's a moot point since everyone DOES actually contain the power to employ their own brand of enterprise and under that thought, should be accounted as relevant, that in the end of the thought, a collective interest of several individuals naturally trumps the isolated self interest of one.

Objectivism permits it.

But when we look at Rand without that philosophy, we essentially have someone who is voicing her desire to have a security force in place in order to keep the masses at bay so that she CAN exploit where she knows she can get away with it. But bring that up to any rational human being and they would vouchsafe disagree with the assertion that private singular enterprise is somehow more important than the well being of that particular person or their friends, family, church members, or neighbors.

Like it or not, the human being IS NOT a mythical lone wolf or even a shark. The human being IS a human being and that nature is NOT synonymous with less elegantly minded creatures.

We rise up beyond the Id because it is collectively pleasing to be one with your fellow human being.
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