The French Government bans Muslim woman from wearing the veil

[KontanKarite]

Just so everyone knows...

I hate you, Isaloween.

[BLEED REBELION!!!]

Kontan I agree with most of what you said. Except: ISlam isnt a race any more than christianity is a race. You can convert to islam. You can quit islam. Its a belief system, its a theology. I cant quit being Black. You cant convert to being Black. I think this is wrong. And that it is "culturism/oppresion/xenophobia" etc. A lot of people like to try to shove islam into a box. Islam is every race, class, etc. I　know Asian, Black, White, and Hispanic muslims. They are not the same race. Yet they would all sufer from this law (if they were to live in frnace).

So if Muslims are one race, present your argument, please.

[BLEED REBELION!!!]

I just heard that Holland is trying to pass a law like the French. wtf

[Isaloween]

It's more like a government banning a yamika (sp) because they're afraid the Jews are taking over the world

Yeah, except than Jew and Muslim are not races... But cultures, religions, philosophies, that's why I thought (and said) "culturalism" instead of Racism. I know French, Arabic, African, Indian people who are Muslims. And there is probably a lot of other people from a lot of other Races who are Muslim.

Versus:

I fucking hate the middle east

Isn't THAT way too harsh?...

[Isaloween]

I hate you, Isaloween.

Lol! yeah I figured... And I admire your ability to actualy "hate" people you don't know... But be it. :o)

[Isaloween]

Kontan I agree with most of what you said. Except: ISlam isnt a race any more than christianity is a race. You can convert to islam. You can quit islam. Its a belief system, its a theology. I cant quit being Black. You cant convert to being Black. I think this is wrong. And that it is "culturism/oppresion/xenophobia" etc. A lot of people like to try to shove islam into a box. Islam is every race, class, etc. I　know Asian, Black, White, and Hispanic muslims. They are not the same race. Yet they would all sufer from this law (if they were to live in frnace).

Sorry bleed, said the same thing as you, but didn't see your post before writing mine...

[Versus]

Originally Posted by Isaloween

Isn't THAT way too harsh?...

Have you ever been there? I'm not trying to be rude, but I could elaborate if you like.

Oh. And post 100. Yay, me!

[KontanKarite]

You know, I'm not going to argue those semantics. Jews are known as a race and a religion. I's likely that Muslims are the same way.

Thing is, this is legislation TARGETED towards a group of people in order to undermine them and to find a way to drive them out of their home. It's NOT the same as school uniforms or some other teen angst bullshit that you guys were trying to attach it to.

This is far worse.

[Versus]

Whoa, stop right there. Targeted? If they were to make wearing a burka illegal, it would effect non-Muslims who wanted to, as well.





I'm so funny.

[LaBelleDameSansMerci]

It is targeted toward a group of people that have a common belief that is much stronger than a type of music and accompanying fashion choice, but I believe it comes from the same basic thing: they see a threat coming from "Islam," and believe that if they make Islam invisible, it will cease to be a threat, despite the fact that it's fanaticism that is the threat, not Islam itself.
School principals believe that if they can prevent people from dressing like goths, they will be safe from school shooters, despite the fact that it's deep-seated psychological issues that give rise to school shooters, not clothes.

The Islam thing is bigger, and affects more people, and I am not saying that not being able to wear fishnets and stompy boots to school comes close to being as important as not being able to wear one's religious symbol anywhere but in the home.

States banning niqabs and burkas is not the way to go about solving oppression of women (I am not blind to the fact that it IS often used to that end). Changing the attitudes of why a woman should choose to wear a niqab or burka (or a hijab), and convincing people that pressuring someone into wearing one for whatever reason is not going to make anyone happy. If a woman chooses to wear a veil or scarf of any sort, it should be her choice alone.

I do have to say that burkas are something of a safety hazard, what with being difficult to see out of.
They have to be used with common sense. Show your face when you need to be identified, make sure you can see properly when you're crossing the street, etc, but banning garments is not the way to go about it.

Edit: it would almost be interesting to take a month and wear a niqab - see how difficult it is, how people look at you, etc. Take notes and write about it.
I'd do it, but my boyfriend would probably not support it.

[Versus]

Originally Posted by LaBelleDameSansMerci

Edit: it would almost be interesting to take a month and wear a niqab - see how difficult it is, how people look at you, etc. Take notes and write about it.
I'd do it, but my boyfriend would probably not support it.

I guarantee that you would not be looked at with desire in anyway. That's the point of it. In the Arab world, women are viewed as family assets, just like men are in China. Like you would accumulate cars as a sign of wealth, so would a man accumulate wives.

But you would not have your car collection displayed on your front yard, would you? We keep them in garages to protect them, and to not invite Nicholas Cage to steal them all in 60 seconds.

[Isaloween]

Have you ever been there?

Versus, I'm not trying to be rude either and, no, I haven't been there you're right. But it's just that the word "hate" is painfull and extreme to me...

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by LaBelleDameSansMerci

It is targeted toward a group of people that have a common belief that is much stronger than a type of music and accompanying fashion choice, but I believe it comes from the same basic thing: they see a threat coming from "Islam," and believe that if they make Islam invisible, it will cease to be a threat, despite the fact that it's fanaticism that is the threat, not Islam itself.
School principals believe that if they can prevent people from dressing like goths, they will be safe from school shooters, despite the fact that it's deep-seated psychological issues that give rise to school shooters, not clothes.

Yes because when the Nazi's forced the Jews to wear the star of David it was exactly like your school banning trenchcoats.

[KontanKarite]

Isaloween, that's stupid. There's plenty of things out there to hate. Being a softy is highly unrealistic. Hate shouldn't be extreme, it's just a condition of being human. Then again, maybe you're not human.

[Isaloween]

maybe you're not human

Who knows...

[KontanKarite]

I do. I don't think you are. Clearly you're a spambot.

[Isaloween]

Lol KontanKarite, well you must be god to know me that well

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Versus

I guarantee that you would not be looked at with desire in anyway. That's the point of it. In the Arab world, women are viewed as family assets, just like men are in China. Like you would accumulate cars as a sign of wealth, so would a man accumulate wives.

They accumulate men in China as a sign of wealth? What?

And you know, its actually rare in most middle east countries for a man to have more than one wife.

[Versus]

Originally Posted by Saya

They accumulate men in China as a sign of wealth? What?

And you know, its actually rare in most middle east countries for a man to have more than one wife.

No. I said they are viewed as family assets. Men have a much higher social status then women do in China. Because of the extreme population and laws of child bearing, it is in a family's better interest to have a son instead of a daughter because they are more likely to achieve success.

If we used the average world sex ratio as a base, and paired every man with every woman*, there would be something like 6,750,000 men left without a wife in Saudi Arabia, as an example, because there are 125 men for every 100 women from a population of a little over 27 million and the average Muslim (Yes, I understand it's not the same as Middle Eastern) country has more men then women. The average Muslim country has 12% of it's marriages as polygamous. If every married man had only two wives of the four that Islam allows, that leaves an additional 12% of men without a wife if my math doesn't suck.

So 37% of men are left without the option to marry. I understand that Polygamy itself is rare, but it's cultural impact is evident, which was my point.

*The average age is 20-25 in the middle east, so I'm going to make things easy on myself and just pretend everyone is old enough to be married, and everyone is.

[Alan]

Jesus, how wrong is everyone here. (Not your last post, Versus; that's outside the common theme in this page)

Kontan, you can't call it racism saying that "it's probably the same than with Jewish people"
Jewish people are a specific ethnicity. There are more muslims in Indonesia than there are in any other country; these are asian muslims.

Bleed, you don't see people hating on asian muslims, do you? The Muslim hatred is merely idiotic racism against the ARAB WORLD masquerading as a genuine concern for a "dangerous religion"

Isaloween, you live in France; you should already know that muslim hatred in your country is a response to immigration. It's not a Big Brother government stepping on your face for shits and giggles. It's conservative fear manifesting itself as best as it can against minorities, in the guise of security and peace. It's stupid to believe that fear is an end in itself.

Dame, Kontan has taken care of all I had to say to you.

[Despanan]

To be fair to Kontan, Judism is a race AND a religion. I could convert to Judism and be a white Jew, you could convert and be a Mexican Jew. Islam is similar in this regard (though not quite as confined to a single ethnicity).

The fact is, this is government sponsored oppression and it's targeted at a specific religio/ethnic group. You can mince words and call it "culturalism" but really that does nothing but make it sound more emotionally palatable, so why bother?

The French government Hates Muslims and is currently moving against them in a way Sarah Palin WISHES she could.

[LaBelleDameSansMerci]

I specifically said it wasn't exactly like it, but it comes from a desire to make perceived threats disappear.

And anyway, wearing the star of David was so that Jews could be seen, and people could say "Look! They're Jewish! We are supposed to hate these people."
Banning face coverings is to make devout Muslims invisible.
Most of this has come up recently, with all the fear in Europe over Muslim imigrants taking over and pushing out the non-Muslims. They are also trying to ban or block mosques from building minarets, using the excuse that "they are eyesores, and we don't want to hear someone calling to prayer," when Christian churches have HUGE towers and big bells that toll all the time. Have they even heard the call to prayer? It's pretty awesome. Anyway, that's not the point. People are afraid of muslims taking over, and they're afraid that they will be oppressed and forced to convert. They're trying to make the muslims invisible so they don't have to think about it.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Versus

No. I said they are viewed as family assets. Men have a much higher social status then women do in China. Because of the extreme population and laws of child bearing, it is in a family's better interest to have a son instead of a daughter because they are more likely to achieve success.

It isn't comparable. The Chinese have a one child limit, and yes men have it better there but thats the same as anywhere else. I know my parents kept having kids until they got a son, it isn't an exotic concept, you'd see the same thing happening here I bet if there was a one child limit. This doesn't compare to polygamy, and multiple wives/servants being a form of conscientious consumerism. Also, in China, children are expected to take care of their parents in old age, and sons are better equipped to do this, as women traditionally care for their inlaws, not their biological parents. It is in their self interest to have sons, and now they only got one chance.

If we used the average world sex ratio as a base, and paired every man with every woman*, there would be something like 6,750,000 men left without a wife in Saudi Arabia, as an example, because there are 125 men for every 100 women from a population of a little over 27 million and the average Muslim (Yes, I understand it's not the same as Middle Eastern) country has more men then women. The average Muslim country has 12% of it's marriages as polygamous. If every married man had only two wives of the four that Islam allows, that leaves an additional 12% of men without a wife if my math doesn't suck.

So 37% of men are left without the option to marry. I understand that Polygamy itself is rare, but it's cultural impact is evident, which was my point.

*The average age is 20-25 in the middle east, so I'm going to make things easy on myself and just pretend everyone is old enough to be married, and everyone is.

What does that have to do with the niqab and how it pertains to how women are treated? And yes, not every Muslim country is middle eastern, that would include much of Africa and Asia where polygamy can be pretty common for more cultural reasons than religious, and you're not taking into account that more and more Arabs and Persians in Iran are putting off marriage as economic conditions improve, and even in Iran you can't take a second wife without the permission of the first, never mind how you have to prove you can support more than one wife, and need to want to get married. There was outrage a year or two ago I remember in Iran that imams were mad that marriage was being delayed and pressured young people to do so. And to say nothing of temporary marriages! What point you're trying to make with that can't be made unless you account for a myriad of variables unique to each Muslim country. Careful there, you're trying to explain the rationality of a billion people who argue with each other over such things fairly often.

And I don't even know where you're going with that. Do some Muslim countries treat women like property? Absolutely, but not all and its not exactly the point of the niqab. The reasons for wearing religious attire can be extremely personal. Yes it prevents you from being sexualized, but its also a pretty big statement about your dedication to your culture and religion should you chose to wear it in a Western country.

[Despanan]

The fact that you would draw even the slightest connection between government sponsored oppression of a minority and your highschool angst bullshit is stupid and quite frankly offensive.

The fact that you are constantly mincing words and employing semantics which make this situation seem more palatable also speaks to your own stupidity, if not a hidden complicity in your governments actions.

Basically,

Dear France, stop being such xenopobic racist douchebags, you're really fucking with the American perception of Europe as a liberal paradise.

[LaBelleDameSansMerci]

Not even all people in any given Muslim country treat women like property, even if "the country does." Even polygamous men can genuinely love all their wives.
North Americans express a similar thing by having an affair. Humans are not wholy monogamous, no matter what the laws say. We have evolved to be a little bit polygamous.

Originally Posted by Versus

I guarantee that you would not be looked at with desire in anyway. That's the point of it.

I know very well I would not be looked at with desire. That's not my desire. I am interested in experiencing wearing a niqab for myself. I have seen a couple women wearing them, and it piqued my curiosity - at least partly because of my own reaction, which was one of surprise and a bit of awkwardness.