Magick is legit

[Solumina]

Charity and volunteer work are magick? I'm a witch!

[Elystan]

Originally Posted by Saya

Only if you take the practice of magick to be magick and not the actual power that neopagans claim to tap into or manipulate. If you're going to take that road, do people practice magick? Yes.

Progress!

Originally Posted by Saya

Does it work? No.

Arguably. More on this later.

Originally Posted by Saya

Besides, particularly with today's neopagans it seems magick to them is prayer and ritual that wasn't pretentious enough for them.

If you mean what I think you mean..

In large part yes, many of the associated practices are a kind of replacement for a set of rituals; bringing in the seasons etc. other than the christian ones. What is the value of prayer and ritual? What lends these practices validity? /tangent

[Elystan]

Originally Posted by Solumina

Charity and volunteer work are magick? I'm a witch!

In a sense, yes. The most recognisable version of 'magick', however, are the activities that can only be interpreted as magickal and nothing else.

Much of this works on the principal of focusing and channeling the will, or causing alterations in consciousness using the methods of ceremony and ritual, etc, the efficacy of which eludes scientific inquiry and must be decided upon by other means or left as an unknown.

There is a long history of magic which I won't go into now but some of the more recent incarnations draw on older traditions while having interesting parallels with the schools of metaprogramming and metacognition, and the theories of image-based psychology.

[Spooky Spencer]

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[Elystan]

Damn he's good

[Grausamkeit]

Holy shit, doodz! Chaos Magicians do exist!

[Kasdeja]

Sorry it degenerated the way it did, Ely... I really appreciate the thought, though, and I agree that it did need to be addressed.

Besides, our religious beliefs are our own, not theirs. I don't think I can walk on water, but I can channel energy into sigils and send it out to people.

By the way, Spencer, when I get access to my signature, I'm gonna give you mad props for the avatar.

[Grausamkeit]

Let's have a duel, then!

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Elystan

Progress!



Arguably. More on this later.



If you mean what I think you mean..

In large part yes, many of the associated practices are a kind of replacement for a set of rituals; bringing in the seasons etc. other than the christian ones. What is the value of prayer and ritual? What lends these practices validity? /tangent

This is a forum full of atheists, and they will tell you prayer and ritual has no power. Magick is just a sillier form of something already pretty silly.

Magick I personally find silly because there is that claim that it draws on ancient traditions. This is bullshit.

Fascination with "old traditions" seems to have started with Spiritualism, which became popular in the 19th century. Spiritualists were mostly white middle class women who were, well, bored. Claiming to be mediums gained them access to public life, they could speak in public and often would dress in a risque style for the time, so there was a lot of men who went to go see them speak just to see some bare arms and ankles. Spiritualism died out early in the 20th century but later Wicca and neopaganism became the new hobby of white middle class women who are bored. Druidism is the only kind of neopagan religion that is mostly male.

The new kind claims to harken back to pre Christian practices, with very little evidence. We know fuck all about druids, for example. More hilarious is the idea that organized religion is a horrible thing, when they claim traditions from patriarchal and racist religions.

[Grausamkeit]

Saya, how dare you not believe in such sacred orders as The Buggering Hedgehogs!

[Elystan]

Originally Posted by Saya

This is a forum full of atheists, and they will tell you prayer and ritual has no power.

Atheism does not preclude acknowledgement of the 'power' of ritual and prayer, ask me how I know.

Originally Posted by Saya

Magick I personally find silly because there is that claim that it draws on ancient traditions. This is bullshit.

Depends on the magic being performed. People who used 13th century grimoires for instance, or kemetic reconstructionists aren't just drawing on ancient traditions they're replicating them. Chaos magick and derivations thereof are explicit not tied to specific traditions but rather understand them within the context of the meta-paradigm.

Originally Posted by Saya

The new kind claims to harken back to pre Christian practices, with very little evidence. We know fuck all about druids, for example. More hilarious is the idea that organized religion is a horrible thing, when they claim traditions from patriarchal and racist religions.

Wicca is fluffy I'll give you that. But from what I've seen the kind of people who use Imbolc rituals as an excuse to get together say a few words and celebrate the return of the spring, are about the furthest people from being racist and sexit that I know.

Again this is kind of a tangent.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Elystan

Atheism does not preclude acknowledgement of the 'power' of ritual and prayer, ask me how I know.

It does mean that there is no basis to say it is legit. To say it "eludes science" is just to say that it cannot work and cannot repeatedly work.

Depends on the magic being performed. People who used 13th century grimoires for instance, or kemetic reconstructionists aren't just drawing on ancient traditions they're replicating them. Chaos magick and derivations thereof are explicit not tied to specific traditions but rather understand them within the context of the meta-paradigm.

You know what 13th century spells were like? Putting menstrual blood in food then feeding it to the object of your affection. A lot of things they did was pretty unsanitary and dangerous. Kemeticism is trying to reconstruct what the Egyptians did, which relied heavily on central power to the pharaoh. It was not an empowering religion for the every day person.

Wicca is fluffy I'll give you that. But from what I've seen the kind of people who use Imbolc rituals as an excuse to get together say a few words and celebrate the return of the spring, are about the furthest people from being racist and sexit that I know.

Again this is kind of a tangent.

Funny, neopagan kemeticism has strong roots with black supremist cults. Odinism is also kind of notorious for often having white supremist practitioners. Then again Vikings aren't well known for being hippies that welcomed the spring, eh?

If people want to get together and pretend that they can actually do shit with invisible powers, that's their business. But its like LARPing that just got sadder.

You can totally sit down and pull this shit out of your ass. I actually had a school project last semester where I had to create a ritual to celebrate a woman getting menopause. Some people made it about "entering out of the Mother stage of life into the Crone", my group made it about becoming a "Wise Woman" since we figured "Crone" wasn't flattering, involved a lot of red wine (SYMBOLISM) and wearing purple (IT USED TO BE THE COLOUR OF NOBILITY).

[Grausamkeit]

Saya, you are such a godamned bigot with your logic! Hoe do you try to refute people's claims with science!

*I love you*

[Saya]

Mind you, it isn't necessarily religions that practice magic that I find sad. Like, Voodoo. I don't believe in it, hoodoo is far from a hippie dippie "rule of 3" practice and there's lots of things about it that I might think is wrong (animal sacrifice), but I also have respect for its history and in the end it feels far more authentic.

For authenticity, lets look at modern day Westerners who decide they're going to celebrate Imbolc. In the end I don't really care, but I can't really respect it. What difference does it make to them, unless they are farmers? Spring is usually late here. I might complain about the cold but if farmers here don't grow what they can on time, the grocery store gets it elsewhere anyway so it makes no fucking difference to me in the end. Its not life or death. Its just light jacket weather I'm hoping for. For Chinese people to practice Falun Gong after decades of persecution of religion by the Communist government, I understand their desire to reclaim a part of their history in a new form. But their religion was only lost a few decades ago, they might be old enough to remember it. For a person in NYC to decide they're going to try and recreate a religion they know very little about and make up things to fill in the gaps, to honor an ancestor they might not have (for all they know their ancestors were the ones who converted the pagans), there's no backbone.

[Alan]

I had this exact conversation yesterday. Except it was with some bullshit hipster instead of some bullshit goth, so it was less about magick and more about your standard eastern appropriations.

[AshleyO]

Originally Posted by Saya

Mind you, it isn't necessarily religions that practice magic that I find sad. Like, Voodoo. I don't believe in it, hoodoo is far from a hippie dippie "rule of 3" practice and there's lots of things about it that I might think is wrong (animal sacrifice), but I also have respect for its history and in the end it feels far more authentic.

Authenticity doesn't = relevance. But hell, at least they got conviction and will straight gut slaughter an animal for a sacrifice. They've got BALLS, man.

For authenticity, lets look at modern day Westerners who decide they're going to celebrate Imbolc. In the end I don't really care, but I can't really respect it. What difference does it make to them, unless they are farmers? Spring is usually late here. I might complain about the cold but if farmers here don't grow what they can on time, the grocery store gets it elsewhere anyway so it makes no fucking difference to me in the end. Its not life or death. Its just light jacket weather I'm hoping for. For Chinese people to practice Falun Gong after decades of persecution of religion by the Communist government, I understand their desire to reclaim a part of their history in a new form. But their religion was only lost a few decades ago, they might be old enough to remember it. For a person in NYC to decide they're going to try and recreate a religion they know very little about and make up things to fill in the gaps, to honor an ancestor they might not have (for all they know their ancestors were the ones who converted the pagans), there's no backbone.

That dipshit in NYC's attempt to connect with the old ways of the druids is JUST as relevant as what happened in China. Severity of ass beatings doesn't really give capital in relevance to a silly idea. I'd say that New Yorker, being that they're sincere, should be just as respected as the downtrodden Chinese. Both instances are trying to reclaim their past.

Then again, maybe there's a statute of limitations as to when it's acceptable to reclaim a lost part of your culture.

As far as magick is concerned, if it can't be tested in a lab or save a person's life in the ER, it's not really worth wasting your energy on.

Honestly, ONCE, just ONCE, I'd like to see some honest to shit empirical evidence of miracles. I'd love to see something scientifically impossible actually happen.

[Alan]

Originally Posted by AshleyO

That dipshit in NYC's attempt to connect with the old ways of the druids is JUST as relevant as what happened in China. Severity of ass beatings doesn't really give capital in relevance to a silly idea. I'd say that New Yorker, being that they're sincere, should be just as respected as the downtrodden Chinese. Both instances are trying to reclaim their past.

Really now? How is a dipshit in NYC thinking egyptian magic is cool "reclaiming his past"?

[AshleyO]

Fuck if I even know. Is the Chinese reclaiming a silly idea because it was trampled at the point of a gun somehow more relevant or worthy of respect than some idiot in New York wanting to reclaim or make up a religion or rebuild a lost religion?

That's my main point.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by AshleyO

That dipshit in NYC's attempt to connect with the old ways of the druids is JUST as relevant as what happened in China. Severity of ass beatings doesn't really give capital in relevance to a silly idea. I'd say that New Yorker, being that they're sincere, should be just as respected as the downtrodden Chinese. Both instances are trying to reclaim their past.

Then again, maybe there's a statute of limitations as to when it's acceptable to reclaim a lost part of your culture.

As far as magick is concerned, if it can't be tested in a lab or save a person's life in the ER, it's not really worth wasting your energy on.

Honestly, ONCE, just ONCE, I'd like to see some honest to shit empirical evidence of miracles. I'd love to see something scientifically impossible actually happen.

Thing is, they don't know its their past. Its easy for the Falun Gong practitioner to know. Christianity has dominated Europe for decades, how do you know? At that point, that is our culture and heritage. I'm not Christian but I know I largely come from a Christian, European background. Wouldn't carving fertility statues be just as silly at this point? My perceived heritage is remarkably different from the time where paganism was dominate. My Catholic Irish grandmother is a little more real to me than a theoretical pagan ancestor who for all I know was hanging people on trees and throwing spears in them or crucifying people. Plus, despite the persecution of religious practice, a Chinese person has a wealth of documentation and historical record to help them reclaim it. Like I said, we know very little about a lot of the religions that people want to reclaim, and the ones we do know a lot about have a lot of issues that neopagans seem to want to ignore and just cherry pick what they want and make up the rest. Or whole heartedly embrace like the white supremist Odinist.

[Saya]

As for the persecution part, I think its a privileged thing to say that reclaiming culture is just as stupid as a person playing make believe. I mean, why don't the natives just give up and live like we do and give up their silly ways of life and beliefs?

Besides, at least they can claim persecution, I could bash my head against the wall whenever a Wiccan claims emotional trauma over the Inquisition.

[Alan]

Originally Posted by AshleyO

Fuck if I even know. Is the Chinese reclaiming a silly idea because it was trampled at the point of a gun somehow more relevant or worthy of respect than some idiot in New York wanting to reclaim or make up a religion or rebuild a lost religion?

That's my main point.

Remember your little attempt at dissing cultural relativism? This is precisely what I was talking about.
Falun Gong was a way of keeping their religious culture intact in a state that enforced atheism. You're not really condemning religion in your rant, you're condemning their culture.
So, no, a dipshit in NY thinking magick is cool is not the same as a religious movement trying to recapture thousands of years of culture and ethics from a brief and violent suppression of said culture.

[Alan]

Originally Posted by Saya

As for the persecution part, I think its a privileged thing to say that reclaiming culture is just as stupid as a person playing make believe. I mean, why don't the natives just give up and live like we do and give up their silly ways of life and beliefs?

Oh, you beat me to it.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Alan

Remember your little attempt at dissing cultural relativism? This is precisely what I was talking about.
Falun Gong was a way of keeping their religious culture intact in a state that enforced atheism. You're not really condemning religion in your rant, you're condemning their culture.
So, no, a dipshit in NY thinking magick is cool is not the same as a religious movement trying to recapture thousands of years of culture and ethics from a brief and violent suppression of said culture.

I also should add that while today the PRC allows religious freedoms to an extent, they did initially support Falun Gong, but then felt threatened by its popularity and it is now illegal to practice. There was a student at my school who's parents were part of Falun Gong, his mother was committed to a mental institution, which is apparently a common thing to do to Falun Gong practioners, and she was killed. He has no idea how or why. His father was imprisoned, tortured and is now disabled, but he was released and was able to come to Canada and gain refugee status. They still live here and can't go back.

Voodoo on the other hand was a mish mash of Christianity and African religion (Vodun) and was a means for slaves brought to North America to hang on to their African culture, particularly in Haiti where slaves successfully overthrew their slavers. When it came out that the Samaritan's Purse was wasting donation money trying to "convert" people from Voodoo in Haiti (despite the fact that most of them are Christian too), it was more than just a religious intolerance issue, it was racist and imperialist.

I think Falun Gong is kinda weird and hokey and I already said what I feel about Voodoo, but I can respect the reclamation to a heritage and culture that is very real to them.

[Elystan]

Originally Posted by Saya

It does mean that there is no basis to say it is legit. To say it "eludes science" is just to say that it cannot work and cannot repeatedly work.

When you try and make friends do you strictly use only methods that you find in peer reviewed scientific journals? How about if you're seeking inspiration for a poem or a piece of artwork, or psyching yourself up for a big test or tournament?

You come across so anal I'm almost expecting a 'yes' here.

Originally Posted by Saya

You know what 13th century spells were like? Putting menstrual blood in food then feeding it to the object of your affection. A lot of things they did was pretty unsanitary and dangerous.

Which is both hilarious and awesome, but ceremonial magic, which consists mostly of spinning in circles spouting gibberish in smokey rooms, is more popular.

Originally Posted by Saya

Kemeticism is trying to reconstruct what the Egyptians did, which relied heavily on central power to the pharaoh. It was not an empowering religion for the every day person.

Whatever, that does nothing to devalue the point I made that not everybody who practices magic can be painted with your broad brush "nothing to do with ancient traditions" rant.

Originally Posted by Saya

Funny, neopagan kemeticism has strong roots with black supremist cults. Odinism is also kind of notorious for often having white supremist practitioners. Then again Vikings aren't well known for being hippies that welcomed the spring, eh?

Where I'm from the whole alternative religion scene and the LGBTQ/polyamorous scene are basically the same scene.

Originally Posted by Saya

You can totally sit down and pull this shit out of your ass. I actually had a school project last semester where I had to create a ritual to celebrate a woman getting menopause. Some people made it about "entering out of the Mother stage of life into the Crone", my group made it about becoming a "Wise Woman" since we figured "Crone" wasn't flattering, involved a lot of red wine (SYMBOLISM) and wearing purple (IT USED TO BE THE COLOUR OF NOBILITY).

Yah, when I went to Imbolc the "ritual co ordinator" was a lazy POS and hadn't co-ordinated any rituals so we had a guy literally make up a guided meditation on the spot. It was quite good though. Anyway without those guys I'd have been sitting in my room arguing with fools on the internet but instead I got a day out in the woods, a shared experience with a small community and enough mead that I proclaimed myself the goblin king. I'm not gonna hate.

[Elystan]

Originally Posted by Saya

I think Falun Gong is kinda weird and hokey and I already said what I feel about Voodoo, but I can respect the reclamation to a heritage and culture that is very real to them.

But people born into the void where Christianity once grew should be dour atheists?