Latest from the Gaza Strip - Family Killed in Raid

[Apathy's_Child]

Originally Posted by PhenomenalTranquility

What fact? I never promised anything. .

You said something like, "I'm going to tell you one fact." Then you didn't.

Originally Posted by PhenomenalTranquility

Everything in this page comes to the same agreement between us all.. Israel's goverment active leaders and the army general's are crooked.

If we agree, great, but actually your post was more along the lines of, "you guys are all jackasses who don't know a thing about Israel." You then assured us you had some of the most humane politicians in the world, then finished by agreeing that your government is bent. I'm not entirely sure what your essential argument is.

[Mother Of All Things Odd]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Thats the most skewed, racist, bigoted thing I have read all day. It shows you, or whoever wrote it, have never read any real material on the topic and have adopted the right-wing hate speech that is spewed by people like the current bush administration.

To say that a whole part of the world is radical, and that they are out to kill you, and in the same breath say you have never read any books on the matter just seems a bit daft.

Then, to pin your assumptions on a few lines from the Bible, that makes it even worse. I mean, there is nothing I take issue with more than the right-wing in America who do what they want, then try and use the Bible to justify whatever action it is they wanted to do. Like bush, telling people 'god' told him to invade Iraq.

If you want to sit here and bad-mouth a group of people because your ignorant, its an open forum, feel free. However, don't drag God into it when you can't justify your beliefs with facts. Also, don't expect everyone to sit here while you spew such tripe.

To hear anyone say this sort of stuff reminds me of seeing old 50's-60's memorabilia which are very racist towards African-Americans. To see some of the billboards, magazine ads, movies, old telly shows, and the other stuff that came out of that period really makes you think those people were very ill informed about many things.

When I see someone flaming the Middle East these days and using the Bible to back up their reasons for their HATE, it reminds me of the same Americans who did the same for so many years to other minorities in America.

I dare you to disprove my argument.Just because I used an argument from the Bible don't call me ignorant or a racist. You know nothing about me or how I came to my opinions. Name calling is just another way of saying I have nothing intelligent to say to gain say your argument so I am just going to make my voice by being silly
My best friend is from Lebanon , her husband from Syria and my boss from Palestine. Neither have been in this country more than 4 years. All have been affected by this on going war in Israel.
My friends uncle was murdered by " extremist" when he refused to join and support to there propaganda against Israel. Her brother was tortured when he came back to Lebanon from Israel where he had a good job and was just visiting his family.Most of all , because they wouldn't convert they lost homes and businesses.
"Adam" lost family members in Palestine due to bombings he blame on his own government head because they refuse to do what's in the best interest of the people .They have broken nearly every peace agreement that they have had with Israel. They were never happy and keep wanting more at their citizens expense. They pay people to make trouble.
Where are your cries of outrage when the Israeli girl was killed on her way to school when her bus was blown up by "extremist". Or what about when whole families are wiped out by stray Palestine missiles? What about when the three men were nearly beaten to death by Palestinian soldiers?
Neither side is totally innocent. Both want what they see is theirs.
So do I read real material? Yes , I do. I even talk to people who have lived through it on both sides and have seen the true horrors .
Do I believe people when they say they want to wipe countries and people off the face of the earth? You bet especially when my country, my people , my religion , and my way of life is on the line.
I can also think of other countries besides America that has had racism in it. Germany hates Jews, Australians hated Aborigines,English hate the Irish, and so on. Not all hate is based on the misinterpretation of the Bible nor can all ignorance be blamed on the Bible either. That can be blamed on people with closed minds who think they know everything when they know nothing.
It might do you some good to read the Bible.
did you know the Bible talked about the world being round before science did? It also taught about cleanliness deferring disease and is very accurately on line with what archaeologist are finding as far as history goes? And the Bible also tells people go out and learn wisdom being the principle thing.

[Mother Of All Things Odd]

Originally Posted by ThreeEyesOni

You have no idea how much I wish that was even possible. -_- Ironically, Israel is one of the few countries that will (quite easily in fact) accept foreign nationals on grounds similar to what you just said.

Unfortunately it's only rather recently that public opinion on the matter of "kick out the natives so we can have the land" has been unacceptable in the majority of the world. Look at the British Empire, the Roman Empire, the colonial Americas, etc etc. Go back as many thousands of years and that's what you see. There comes a point where we have to all accept that every portion of the planet was previously inhabited by some other section of the species and that every cultural group has done this in the past. Then we all just have to figure out some way to bloody live together and acknowledge that there's a finite amount of land for us to share.

PS: Anyone that starts with "My dearest darling children" and the continues with vaugely prophetic ramblings devoid of proper use of punctuation (psssttt... you're supposed to put a space after punctuation) pretty much falls into my personal catagory of "bloody lunatic better not listened to".

I noticed quite a few errors in your own grammar. After etc should be a period and a comma
Oh and your spelling left something to be desired too. What's a vaguely and a catagory?

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by Apathy's_Child

Actually, the Palestinians DID show evidence of willingness to do things differently. After the Holocaust, some of the survivors went from Europe to Palestine in ships bearing signs that said, "we survived the Holocaust - God's wrath upon you if you fire at us." And so they didn't. Are we, in the First World, that civilized about illegal immigration into OUR country?

Besdies which, that's a weak argument. ALL humanity is capable of behaving like the Israelis, and many nations do so every day. You can't just say, "but they'd do the same to us if the shoe was on the other foot", and expect that to suffice.



No, it doesn't. It makes them victims of injustice, though, if they're getting the living shit kicked out of them for a bullshit reason. Like, say, "the Bible says this land is destined to belong to us. Get moving. We'll be right behind you with weapons, though, in case you look at us wrong. We'll also occasionally storm your civilian territories, just to make sure."



Fun for you. If only this was reflected in government policy.

Also, where's the fact you promised? I just heard opinion there.

The fact that you ignored my main reason for stating what I have stated shows me that you're simply trying to make me look bad. Each part of that post was not several different independent reasons for different things. But a collective reasoning to my opinion that the world should cut off total support to both sides. Not only that, but they shouldn't have given so much support in the first place. Do I think it's a fair or good thing that Israel is doing what they're doing? No, it's not. It's an unfair fight from the get go. Does that mean you expect Israel's allies to change sides and support the other for a while? Because if so, "ethnic cleansing" WILL happen the other way.

It's a racist war in that regards. Hell, I'm against war in general. And yes, I'm well aware that the USA does the same damned thing. The US crushed Afghanistan in a couple of weeks. Some countries are stronger than others. Simple as that. BUT, I will say that the US starting shit in the mid east over a handful of criminals is a BAD thing.

[insolitus_noir]

Originally Posted by Mother Of All Things Odd

It might do you some good to read the Bible.
did you know the Bible talked about the world being round before science did? It also taught about cleanliness deferring disease and is very accurately on line with what archaeologist are finding as far as history goes? And the Bible also tells people go out and learn wisdom being the principle thing.

I think you're mistaken about archaeological support for the Bible. There is no archaeological record, for example, of the events in Exodus. (I couldn't find the reference I was looking for, but this one will suffice: www [dot]skeptic [dot]com/eskeptic/04-04-05.html. (I can't post links, hence the [dot]s instead of periods.

And unfortunately, the Bible also says things like, "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" ...8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. 9 You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God..."(Deuteronomy 13) And that's the mild stuff.

The point isn't to put your religious beliefs on trial, but since you brought the Bible up in the the first place, I would argue how the Bible is a very human document prone to very human abuses. It is perhaps not the best authority to fall back on in this particular instance. Christian Zionism and the likes of "predicted that the Jews would have their own country again and as for war with the Arabs that has been going on since Sarah since Abraham into the handmaidens tent to father a child because they didn't have the patience to or the faith to believe" neither hold water nor help move us forward.

In any case, all this points to yet another trend in trying to discuss the Israel-Palestinian conflict: it's impossible to discuss Palestinian suffering without being accused of ignoring Israeli suffering. It strikes me as yet another way to keep the focus on Israel and marginalizing Palestinian issues in the process. This is the Israel bias we've been discussing in this thread. Frankly, I don't think anybody here is minimizing the suffering of Israelis at the hands of Palestinian suicide bombers, or is any less outraged at the deaths of Israeli civilian than at the deaths of Palestinians. But we need a bit of perspective here. Palestinians are a destitute people with a barely functional government, while Israel has power, wealth, organization, and the best military hardware US money can buy. Israel has broken its fair share of agreements - i.e. settlements - and aggravated the situation in ways only a vastly superior force can. If it didn't seem like the Establishment were so dead set against acknowledging the plight of Palestinian, discussing Israel 's shortcomings wouldn't be such a revolutionary thing to do.

[Mother Of All Things Odd]

Insolitus_noir Thank you for the link I will check it out. I really appreciate someone who can make a point without the name calling. It was a well thought out response and one I am open to pursuing.
I have found only a few people who will take on a point of view that is Biblically based without name calling. Actually, your the first one on this sight. I have often wondered if it's from fear or just outright denial that there is a God and one day they will have to face Him, please don't answer that I was just musing out loud.
I don't know about the exodus either but I choose to believe it happened. As far as the kings and different societies, that has been proven. Right now I have been up for 24 hours so I have to look up the name of the archaeologist and the name of the show that I watched on the history channel about it.
I will agree that Israel has it's fair share of short comings. I do not belie they are trying to wipe out the Palestine people but to hold on to their very existence. That is sometimes hard to see because of the bias opinions of some groups and I get overly angry when people only see one side .
The Palestine people should be allowed to stay on the Gaza strip but I think it should be as Israeli citizens. There government is so corrupt and backward it could be a blessing for them . I know there are Arabs that are Israeli citizens and those that don't want to be citizens should be given a ticket to the country of their choice.
The only problem with that is none of the Arab nations want the Palestine people. They are a weapon for them to use to cause trouble for the one free society in the middle east. If they did want them they would be offering them admittance as refugees to there countries to get them out of the poverty and war zone they are in.
Pretty much the Palestine people are screwed not only by Israel but by they're supposed allies. That is the truth that no one wants hear that.
Israel was the only take in these refugees when their countries were at war and now no one wants them for anything other than pawns in a game of let's see who can inflict the most damage and get away with it.That puts a whole population in a dire situation that could be solved without any land or anyones religious beliefs being devalued. They are a people without a home because of corruption and hate on both sides and getting used in the worse way.

[Mother Of All Things Odd]

Originally Posted by Apathy's_Child

Dear GothicChristian's mom,

first of all, someone who refers to the Bible as an oracle, rather than a ready-made justification for what was done to Palestine, really shouldn't be patronizing ANYONE.

Secondly, you're an idiot.

I think Sternn got the rest covered.

One must wonder at some peoples emotional responses. To try to argue ones point by name calling is really over rated. I had to ask my 10 year old how to argue with you she said to call you a dummy head. And she is mentally handicapped so I figured she would know
As far as using other people ravings try forming your own opinions. That could be more fun and try to read things in the context in which they are written before you do that.
Usually when one opens my dearest darling children one is being sardonic. Of course , that may be a little over your head. It was obviously over his as he didn't even read the whole thing before became overly emotional and started calling people names too. Nobody called a whole race radicals just some people are radicals.

[Mir]

To use the bible to justify or prove anything is utterly fucking insane.

If you want to debate politics, that's fine with me but don't use a piece of fiction to justify your claims.

That post was directed at no one in particular. I just have a (bad?) tendency for skipping posts that refer to the bible/koran as a basis for any argument.

[ionic_angel]

Originally Posted by Mir

To use the bible to justify or prove anything is utterly fucking insane.

If you want to debate politics, that's fine with me but don't use a piece of fiction to justify your claims.

Not to be critical, but why do you think that using the Bible to justify or prove anything is insane?

And why do you classify it as fiction?

[insolitus_noir]

Originally Posted by Mother Of All Things Odd

The Palestine people should be allowed to stay on the Gaza strip but I think it should be as Israeli citizens. There government is so corrupt and backward it could be a blessing for them . I know there are Arabs that are Israeli citizens and those that don't want to be citizens should be given a ticket to the country of their choice.

It seems rather presumptuous, not to mention arrogant in a paternalistic sort of way, to suggest that Palestinians should become Israeli citizens. Wouldn't that be like telling Native Americans that they should give up their reservations - hey, they lost everything else to the White Man already, why not give up the rest? - and become Americans? This goes right to the heart of the issue, which I brought up earlier: a country was created where there was none before. To take land away from Palestinians, give it to Israelis, and expect everyone to go along with that is exactly the fuel on the fire today and what nobody is addressing directly. We focus on the symptoms - suicide bombings, rocket retaliations, etc - but not on the disease.

You're correct, Mother, that other Arab states don't want the Palestinians. And I'll grant you that some seem quite content with exploiting them to sabotage Israeli interests. But I don't think Palestinians want to live in those Arab countries any more than they want to live in Israel. They want to live where they've lived for generations, in Palestine. This is why a two-state solution is the only thing that will work...if, and that's the big if, the perceived value of compromise trumps the perceived value of violent intransigence.

[PhenomenalTranquility]

Originally Posted by Apathy's_Child

You said something like, "I'm going to tell you one fact." Then you didn't.



If we agree, great, but actually your post was more along the lines of, "you guys are all jackasses who don't know a thing about Israel." You then assured us you had some of the most humane politicians in the world, then finished by agreeing that your government is bent. I'm not entirely sure what your essential argument is.

Fuck yeah I did, read it again dumbass!

Of course you're not etirely sure, you're fucking Apathy's child now aren't you? Our current goverment sure is bent, but the politicans who are now running for several different roles there are heavenly.

[Apathy's_Child]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

The fact that you ignored my main reason for stating what I have stated shows me that you're simply trying to make me look bad.

Not at all. Why would I want to do that? The reason I replied to your post is that I disagreed with several points in your line of reasoning. And the reason I picked odd points is is because these were the points I found problematic. Trying to make you look bad has nothing to do with it - I actually kinda dig you in general.

Originally Posted by Mother Of All Things Odd

Germany hates Jews, .

No, ONE leader tapped into the anti-semitism that was rife throughout Europe to do some extremely fucked up things. Nowadays, Germany does NOT hate Jews. In fact, the country has been hanging its head in shame since WW2. I recently read about a French novel which caused a huge stir when people attempted to translate it into German, because it's told from the viewpoint of a Nazi guard at a concentration camp. The German people were outraged and attempted to prevent its publication, claiming that they don't want a book that attempts to make such a person remotely sympathetic. That's how much they "hate Jews".

Originally Posted by Mother Of All Things Odd

I don't know about the exodus either but I choose to believe it happened.

Quoted for making coffee shoot out my nose.

[Apathy's_Child]

Originally Posted by PhenomenalTranquility

Fuck yeah I did, read it again dumbass!

Of course you're not etirely sure, you're fucking Apathy's child now aren't you? Our current goverment sure is bent, but the politicans who are now running for several different roles there are heavenly.

Oh, I'm sorry, you're right. I take it all back - your statement that they are "heavenly" is indeed hard fact, and it was foolish of me to question your balanced and dispassionate judgment.

P.S. Look up apathy. I think you've misunderstood the meaning, a fair signifier of your capacity for understanding ANYTHING.

[GothicChristian]

Again , only part of the statement and not the whole. It was an example of hate on a global and historical basis based on one that someone else said about people in America hating lessor races. What the hell You didn't give the other to or three examples written . I believe I also said The Australians were racist against the Aborigines and the English were prejudice against the Irish as examples of racism around the world and the past.
I never called all mid eastern people radicals but there are a few who are and have made their intentions quite plain and as a whole we can not afford to dismiss there threats. My friends from the middle east are examples of that. There radicals through out the middle east and they can not be ignored . To do so just invites trouble. There is still evil out there in the world and closing ones eyes to it doesn't make it go away.
Again because I choose to believe in things that I can not prove is called faith. You know what that word means right? We can't prove for sure what the dinosaurs looked like but we have faith that science has that right. So why is it so far fetched that someone can believe in the exodus or anything else for that matter?

[Apathy's_Child]

The WRONG part. I have no idea if the English hate the Irish. But I do know it's bullshit to claim that Germany hates Jews. So I shouldn't call out erroneous statements because you said other stuff too?

Comparing belief in dinosaurs to belief in the Bible is a TERRIBLE analogy. You don't have to take the fact that they existed on faith, because there's EVIDENCE.

Believe whatever you want, but using a belief to justify violence against a people (such as, for example, the Palestinians) is EXACTLY what radicals do. Plenty of religious people are capable of having faith in personal matters, yet still making informed decisions based on the evidence at hand when it comes to politics. Those who can't do this are usually those we refer to as fundamentalists.

[GothicChristian]

Originally Posted by insolitus_noir

It seems rather presumptuous, not to mention arrogant in a paternalistic sort of way, to suggest that Palestinians should become Israeli citizens. Wouldn't that be like telling Native Americans that they should give up their reservations - hey, they lost everything else to the White Man already, why not give up the rest? - and become Americans? This goes right to the heart of the issue, which I brought up earlier: a country was created where there was none before. To take land away from Palestinians, give it to Israelis, and expect everyone to go along with that is exactly the fuel on the fire today and what nobody is addressing directly. We focus on the symptoms - suicide bombings, rocket retaliations, etc - but not on the disease.

You're correct, Mother, that other Arab states don't want the Palestinians. And I'll grant you that some seem quite content with exploiting them to sabotage Israeli interests. But I don't think Palestinians want to live in those Arab countries any more than they want to live in Israel. They want to live where they've lived for generations, in Palestine. This is why a two-state solution is the only thing that will work...if, and that's the big if, the perceived value of compromise trumps the perceived value of violent intransigence.

As I said it was just one possible solution. I really don't see any real solution to the problem . With it's own set of problems but suggestions open up dialogs, and possibly more suggestions to solutions. .
By offering the possibility of having a choice to the people , you take it out of the governments hand. I have found that the people are usually more reasonable than there government .

[GothicChristian]

Originally Posted by Apathy's_Child

The WRONG part. I have no idea if the English hate the Irish. But I do know it's bullshit to claim that Germany hates Jews. So I shouldn't call out erroneous statements because you said other stuff too?

Comparing belief in dinosaurs to belief in the Bible is a TERRIBLE analogy. You don't have to take the fact that they existed on faith, because there's EVIDENCE.

Believe whatever you want, but using a belief to justify violence against a people (such as, for example, the Palestinians) is EXACTLY what radicals do. Plenty of religious people are capable of having faith in personal matters, yet still making informed decisions based on the evidence at hand when it comes to politics. Those who can't do this are usually those we refer to as fundamentalists.

When and if you ever read the the statement in a whole in a let me know. As I said it is a historical reference to racism and hate around the world .I mean surely you understand that. Why are you so hung up on Germany and the Jews anyway?
Why are you so hung up on one part of a statement and forgetting the rest. ? I never said I had to take dinosaurs on faith just what they looked like . They have no evidence to what they really looked like just bones.I have to take it on faith that when I go to sleep I'll wake up.
Being as that I am German ,and guess what I have no problem with that part of my Father's country's history. Just like I have no problem with the history of America. Racism is part of all countries histories and hopefully we all learn from it. So get over it.
Again your name calling . Sounds to me like your more than a little prejudiced yourself . Especially against someone who is religious Maybe if you would ask people why they believe you might something you might learn something.

[Mother Of All Things Odd]

Originally Posted by insolitus_noir

American and British citizens dying elsewhere in the world doesn't lessen the tragedy of their deaths in Israel. In a similar logical vein, it is possible to address one injustice without denying or trivializing other injustices in the world.

Actually in todays society most people on focus on one point to oblivion. Not all people do though. They get blind sided and forget the other horrors. So they focus all their attention on that one thing and forget all else.
It just seems to me that when one side of a story is told so should the other side. That is all I am trying to point out. Not trying to lessen any tragedy but to broaden the full scope of how tragic the world has become.

[Apathy's_Child]

Originally Posted by GothicChristian

When and if you ever read the the statement in a whole in a let me know. As I said it is a historical reference to racism and hate around the world .I mean surely you understand that. Why are you so hung up on Germany and the Jews anyway?

I'm not "hung up" on Germany. You made an erroneous statement. I corrected it.

Originally Posted by GothicChristian

Why are you so hung up on one part of a statement and forgetting the rest. ? I never said I had to take dinosaurs on faith just what they looked like . They have no evidence to what they really looked like just bones.I have to take it on faith that when I go to sleep I'll wake up.

You drew a parallel between believing what science tells us about dinosaurs and believing in the Bible. I pointed out that there is evidence which suggests certain things are real, and gives a good indication of what they looked like, if that's what you meant. "Only" bones? A skeleton is a damn good starting point when it comes to reconstructing the appearance of a creature. The only evidence of Biblical history is the Bible itself. There is no hard proof. Therefore, the analogy is a bad one.

Originally Posted by GothicChristian

Again your name calling . Sounds to me like your more than a little prejudiced yourself . Especially against someone who is religious Maybe if you would ask people why they believe you might something you might learn something.

I'm not name-calling, and I have no issue with people being religious (except that I think they're mistaken, as they believe I am). What I have an issue with, as I already said, is people using something for which there is no evidence aside from their own convictions, to draw political conclusions. There is a lot more to politics than one's own faith and beliefs, and to ignore the facts is ignorant.

Please stop accusing me of taking your statements out of context. If my arguments are wrong in your opinion, try refuting them - something you haven't done once.

[Mir]

Originally Posted by ionic_angel

Not to be critical, but why do you think that using the Bible to justify or prove anything is insane?

And why do you classify it as fiction?

I've read your response and honestly, I cannot be bothered enough to respond. You win. It is not a work of fiction and the Bible can be used to back up any/all arguments.

[Mother Of All Things Odd]

Originally Posted by ionic_angel

Not to be critical, but why do you think that using the Bible to justify or prove anything is insane?

And why do you classify it as fiction?

You probably won't get a straight answer. At least not a rational one .

[Mir]

If you dig through these forums, you will have your answers. I don't feel like repeating something said to death already.

[insolitus_noir]

Originally Posted by Mother Of All Things Odd

You probably won't get a straight answer. At least not a rational one .

I'd give you a straight and rational answer, but it would be rather off-topic for this thread, especially since the thread has already achieved some sort of consensus. The situation in Israel/Palestine sucks, progress seems distant...

I'm not sure how much more of a beating the dead horse can take.

[Mother Of All Things Odd]

Originally Posted by Mir

I've read your response and honestly, I cannot be bothered enough to respond. You win. It is not a work of fiction and the Bible can be used to back up any/all arguments.

I smell fear. I can give you three archaeological finds that back up the Bible and it's accuracy in history telling.
Sumerian Kings List which dates back to 2100BC it list all the kings reigns before and after the great flood. It also confirms the decline in life spans that occurs in that time. You know Noah and the Ark and they have one similar call the Epic of Gilgamesh. Hero's name was Noah, he built an ark, had animals on it and used birds to search for dry land.
The Law Codes of Hammurabi dating back to 1750BC and the Nuzi tablets dating between the 1500 and 1400BC .King Hammurabi had over 300 civil codes and the nuzi tablets describe life just as the Bible does for that era.
In 1994 the the Tel Dan Inscriptions and the piece of pottery that dated around 800BC that had an actual receipt for a donation of silver shekels donated to Solomons temple.
Then again there is also the Rosetta Stone and the Dead Sea Scrolls.
Now I ask of you in return to give me three facts on what makes you think the Bible is fiction. Not feelings not Darwinism but facts.( darwinism only because it is a theory that is still missing too many pieces)
I want to hear your side not rantings and ravings or I am going to have to assume that you truly can not justify your statement and feel sorry for you because you have a closed mind.

[Mir]

I have already retracted my statement. What are you on about?