Marx's response to the Gotha Program

[Joker_in_the_Pack]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

...Brent. That's pretty damned screwed up.

Beyond you stating the obvious about you having more adult experience than JCC, you didn't have to really go there.

It's true. JCC IS indeed a teenager. But you're assuming his character is something far less than what he displays here. There's someone on the other side of that screen. Someone with some ideas and some dreams. Yeah, he's 14/15 years old. But Jesus, man... you should at least commend him on his ideals and his articulation of them. He's a fucking smart kid. If anything, even if you disagree with him, Jillian, and other proclaimed leftists, you should at least show some respect or tact.

I've talked to the little Dick off gnet. He's about the same. Of course on here he composes himself a little more, and takes a little more time to word things. It's INSTANT messenger, not INSTANT forums. But fuck, I wish I was as smart as he was at his age. I was a tool.



So yeah, Despanan, don't be such a prick.

You can knock his ideals down, challenge his basis, his standards, his logic, whatever you like, but saying he's a teenager and thinking that's a decent point in an argument?

That's childish

[JCC]

Originally Posted by Despanan

Kid, I don't know what kind of fucked-up world you live in (oh wait, I do know, you live in the world where your parents pay for your food and lodging and you attend middle school and draw anarchy symbols on the inside of your desk with a #2 pencil. Wait, are you in highschool yet? Have you had the chance to move up to the big lockers?)

If it's senseless of me to defend anarchism as a teenager, it's also senseless for you to be so stalwartly defending capitalism when you're clearly not reaping any significant benefits and probably aren't putting in any of the labour that you think is the basis of the split between the rich and poor. What's your job? If you can make assumptions about my life then I can make assumptions about yours, and I am willing to bet that your job does not include production, but a middleman position. A shop clerk, or a secretary, or another middle-class job.

Originally Posted by Despanan

but what sort of crazy conglomeration do you come from where you get the idea that someone should not be rewarded for their labor?

I didn't. People would be rewarded far better for their labour in an anarchocommunist gift economy than they are in our current capitalist system. The working class isn't called the working class for no reason; everything that we take for granted is created by the working class. The computer that you're typing on right now was most likely built by a working class person, unless you built it yourself. If we were all awarded for our labour fairly, the working class would be at the top of society.

Originally Posted by Despanan

Let me break it down for you; when you take time out of your daily life to help another person on a regular basis, you need to be compensated for that time. Moving stuff takes time, selling stuff takes time. People are not just going to come up and hand you money for your stuff because you are selling it. This requires effort, this requires compensation.

How many rich men can you think of that do all of their travelling and moving stock and selling stock themselves? Rich men pay working class men to drive the lorries and flog the items, then they take in the profits from underpaying the producer and overcharging the customer. It's ridiculous to assume that labour is fairly rewarded; that's an assumption discredited the minute that you look around at the "real world" that you seem to have such an affection for.

Originally Posted by Despanan

It is fucking silly to expect a banker to take a week off to travel to Honduras to buy his bananas, just like it is fucking silly to expect someone to move bananas from Honduras to the United States and sell them for the same price they bought them from the farmer (Which of course is a net loss consideing the cost of travel).

You don't have to move your example abroad, it's happening in the United States just as much as between the United States and other countries. If a person in charge of moving goods from one place and distributing them in another place was given fair wage that matched the input of labour, then I would have absolutely no problem at all with the system. That's not how things work. A business works by taking the goods of the producers and selling them to the customers and raking in profits, then increasing the amount of producers and customers. Profits will skyrocket, but the amount that the producer is awarded and the amount that the customer is expected to pay do not change. This is not a fair reflection of the labour input.

Originally Posted by Despanan

You expect people to take care of you for free because your parents take care of you for free. That's not the way the world works, and no matter how many revolutions you advocate that is never the way the world will work. Living takes effort. It takes struggle, and no matter how you rework the barter system, nor how many rights you declare to be yours will you ever countermand this verity.

Of course life takes struggle. That's precisely why socialism is needed, not why it's irrelevant. You can choose between a community working towards a common goal together, or a group of individuals battling each other to get there first so that they can get the benefits at the expense of everyone that wasn't fast enough. There's no need to add internal struggles to the struggle for survival.

Originally Posted by Despanan

A system of trading cannot change the human heart, nor can it remove struggle from life, and when you reach the real world you will understand this.

That's not an argument, you're just blowing hot air because you've realized that you're on the back foot and would rather start being patronising to dupe people into thinking that you're in control than just admit that your arguments are flawed and that you need to rethink your position. That's sad, and I can't see how you're ever going to function with such a mindset.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by Despanan

I'm sorry, what? i was actually out doing something that mattered. I just noticed this.

...like writing more bad plays?

Originally Posted by Despanan

Now, I am going to have sex with a woman, and you are going to kindly take your carefully crafted internet persona and scamper off.

Chromosomes make a woman, not a seamed blown up pussy.

[Underwater Ophelia]

PS--good show, JCC.

[gothicusmaximus]

I won't stand for this nonsense. There's only one way to express my discontent. Oph, take away some of Despanan's reputation.

[Underwater Ophelia]

You got it, babe.

[Mir]

And give yerself a +1. Sersly.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Ok, will do.

[JCC]

Can I have a +1? I'm feeling a little underappreciated.

[Underwater Ophelia]

No.
Can't request it for yourself.

[Mir]

Can I humbly request Jcc gets a slot, and a +1. Please?

[JCC]

Cheers Mir. You're not such a bad guy after all. Let's hug.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by Mir

Can I humbly request Jcc gets a slot, and a +1. Please?

Sure, whatever.

[JCC]

Well shit, while we're being generous we might as well spread some appreciation to Mir. +1 the man.

[Mir]

Please don't. It ruins my impartiality in said system. Ophelia, I'm being fucking serious for once.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by Mir

Please don't. It ruins my impartiality in said system. Ophelia, I'm being fucking serious for once.

And you pick a fake reputation system to be serious about?

[gothicusmaximus]

You should know by now that Mir's thoughts and actions are governed by no system even remotely similar to what we call logic.

[Mir]

Exactly. Why can't everyone get with the program. It's been three years of the same regurgitated/retarded shit, and you people still wonder why. GM gets me. One love.

Besides, I have to use the Onscreen Keyboard, and have little interest in typing long drawn out messages.

[HumanePain]

Originally Posted by JCC

Of course life takes struggle. That's precisely why socialism is needed, not why it's irrelevant. You can choose between a community working towards a common goal together, or a group of individuals battling each other to get there first so that they can get the benefits at the expense of everyone that wasn't fast enough. There's no need to add internal struggles to the struggle for survival.

This is one of the most profound posts on Gnet in recent history. If only this could be made required reading around the world.

[Despanan]

I suppose everybody's waiting for a response here, as I just got back from a three day trip and then was delayed by work. I'm going to keep it brief and to the point seeing as Jillian and JCC can't deal with simple internet falmewars themselves and have to try to recruit other people via pm to join their idiotic crusades.

On the topic: My argument was not simply that he was young, but that he had a massively flawed perspective on real life. This is obvious. I probably would have debated some of the finer points of the socialist philosophies he name-dropped (which was pretty much all that post was about anyway) but as I said, I had an engagement.

When I said I was doing something important, it was something NOT related to arguing radical politics on an internet website dedicated to Goth with minors. If you don't consider such idiotic diversions unimportant, then frankly I feel sorry for you.

Upon a reread my post did get a little personal, and for that I do apologize. Sorry if I came off a little dickish.

Kontan: It was completely inappropriate for you to bring the personal issues we have up here. It has nothing to do with the discussion at hand and could've just as easily been conveyed in a PM. I am going to give you the respect you did not give me, and not air our dirty laundry over the world wide web. You don't want to misrepresent me? then do me the courtesy of not using recent issues in our ten year friendship in an internet flamewar.

And that's pretty much all I have to say on the subject. I'd be up to continue a discussion on this with JCC when I have more time, but due to the drama bomb Kontan decided to lay down I really don't feel like it.

Originally Posted by underwear

...like writing more bad plays?

I'm sorry the tiny snippet I posted did not meet with your approval. Next time I'll write something about masturbating with pizza slices or vampire chicks with acid-tits.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Seeing as you didn't actually say anything except trying to passive-aggressively assert yourself as somehow superior to all of us, I'll actually keep it brief:

I genuinely feel sorry for you.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by Despanan

I'm sorry the tiny snippet I posted did not meet with your approval. Next time I'll write something about masturbating with pizza slices or vampire chicks with acid-tits.

Not only do you and I both know that that was retarded, you and I both also know that your writing is sub par.
Relax.

[gothicusmaximus]

Originally Posted by Despanan

I suppose everybody's waiting for a response here, as I just got back from a three day trip and then was delayed by work. I'm going to keep it brief and to the point seeing as Jillian and JCC can't deal with simple internet falmewars themselves and have to try to recruit other people via pm to join their idiotic crusades.

What the fuck are you talking about? Is this delusional paranoia brought on by the stress of debating politics with minors on a goth forum?

On the topic: My argument was not simply that he was young, but that he had a massively flawed perspective on real life. This is obvious. I probably would have debated some of the finer points of the socialist philosophies he name-dropped (which was pretty much all that post was about anyway) but as I said, I had an engagement.

Why even post, then, Despanan? How the hell did you imagine that making a statement to the effect of "I'm too cool for this shit. You're fourteen. I'm off to go have sex with a woman now-- did you hear that? I'm not a virgin! I'm livin' the life!" would accomplish anything but the compromise of your position, as well as our ability to respect you? JCC afforded you a modicum of courtesy and made genuine efforts to argue his points against yours, but you, in a post that amounts to virtually nothing except puerile name-calling, assert that he's immature?

When I said I was doing something important, it was something NOT related to arguing radical politics on an internet website dedicated to Goth with minors. If you don't consider such idiotic diversions unimportant, then frankly I feel sorry for you.

Surely, then, at any given second, there is something more important you could do than make a post on a Goth site about how posting on a Goth site is an idiotic diversion. The starker the irony, the quicker that irony ceases to be funny, so you might as well just leave.

[JCC]

Originally Posted by Despanan

I suppose everybody's waiting for a response here, as I just got back from a three day trip and then was delayed by work. I'm going to keep it brief and to the point seeing as Jillian and JCC can't deal with simple internet falmewars themselves and have to try to recruit other people via pm to join their idiotic crusades.

Yeah, your unoriginal barbs broke my thin skin and I saw no other choice than to call my crew for some cyber xbeatdownzx. You're an idiot.

Originally Posted by Despanan

On the topic: My argument was not simply that he was young, but that he had a massively flawed perspective on real life. This is obvious. I probably would have debated some of the finer points of the socialist philosophies he name-dropped (which was pretty much all that post was about anyway) but as I said, I had an engagement.

I'm making no claims to originality, I recycle a lot of socialist philosophy. A lot of socialist philosophy is created in the minds of very old and wise men. While they may also have massively flawed perspectives on real life, obviously their issue is not youth. As for my post being name-dropping, I already explained mutualism and you went "BARTER SYSTEM? LOLWUT" in a hilarious misunderstanding of anarchist individualism and then acted smug about it because you thought you'd offered up an unbeatable argument. Besides, what's to criticise about my posts lacking substance when your last post was just being a dick to avoid having to say anything of worth?

Originally Posted by Despanan

When I said I was doing something important, it was something NOT related to arguing radical politics on an internet website dedicated to Goth with minors. If you don't consider such idiotic diversions unimportant, then frankly I feel sorry for you.

Nobody cares that you didn't keep arguing. If you'd just said "Can't reply again tonight, got plans." do you really think that anyone would give a shit? It's your pompous "LOOK AT ME, I'M GOING TO GO HAVE SEX WITH A WOMAN" bullshit like an infant that's about to get an ice cream and feels they have to brag about it to the poor kids. Don't rub your sexual conquests in my face, motherfucker.

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus

What the fuck are you talking about? Is this delusional paranoia brought on by the stress of debating politics with minors on a goth forum?

No, this is a fact. Kontan told me. Jillian has been appealing to him in PMs for a while now. That's why Kontan posted in this thread. Whenever Jillian gets backed into a corner he sends out PM distress calls to kontan and who knows how many others (including, recently, in an argument with Opteron Man of all people.)

JCC afforded you a modicum of courtesy and made genuine efforts to argue his points against yours.

No, he really did not. He gave me the pretense of it, and then he name dropped. That's not an argument, no matter how you slice it.

Surely, then, at any given second, there is something more important you could do than make a post on a Goth site about how posting on a Goth site is an idiotic diversion. The starker the irony, the quicker that irony ceases to be funny, so you might as well just leave.

It's a diversion. it's something I do in my off time. ie: off time as in something I do when I am bored. I was scanning the forums to kill time, and saw the idiot's victory claim. I verbally bitchslapped him so hard Jillian had to go plead with my friend to intervene, and he just happened to be lucky enough that Kontan and my friendship had experienced some tension lately.

Honestly though, I should thank him. We were able to patch things up after this latest blowout. I'm actually pretty damn glad this stuff ended up being sparked by something so silly so we could nip it in the bud.

So no Gnet, you won't get the pecking party you're hoping for. So sorry.