From each according to his ability, to each according to his need....

[Saya]

Originally Posted by AshleyO

Okay, FINE. That's him apparently. But you've been saying for the longest time, Saya, that OWS is JUST white hipsters.

Do you think that there AREN'T any elements of PoC dialogue and feminist dialogue and queer dialogue in OWS? Exactly what do you think OWS is because I get the impression that you're really only half right.

Yo, we established in a previous thread that OWS is mostly white and mostly male, in a city where that's not representative of the population.

[AshleyO]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtHuoF5qoC8

[AshleyO]

Originally Posted by Saya

Yo, we established in a previous thread that OWS is mostly white and mostly male, in a city where that's not representative of the population.

Sssooo... that doesn't change?

[Saya]

What has changed so fundamentally?

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Saya

I don't get how since he doesn't witness war crimes that he doesn't want to talk about it, but as a white middle class cisgender male, he feels perfectly comfortable acting like he knows it all about police brutality, when he was fine and dandy ignoring it before.

Saya,

1) This has nothing to do with war crimes. The only reason we're even talking about that is because YOU accused me of being inconsistent since I "wouldn't refer to US troops that way"

Not only is that a fallacious claim, because as we've seen the police force, while increasingly militarized in both equipment and culture is not the same as the military. But my reasons for being reluctant to alter my language when talking about things of which I have no direct knowledge of HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IGNORING WAR CRIMES.

As for the "ignoring that this has been happening to people of Colour" (gotta get the British spelling in there) is similarly idiotic.

It's true that before OWS I didn't know to what an extent this had been going on because I was not active with people from those communities (and now I am) BUT THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO with my use of language about the NYPD. If anything their history of violence against these groups gives me MORE reason to refer to cops derisively NOT LESS.

Let's cut to the chase here Saya, because I think I know what this is about: because I'm white and male an straight youthink I shouldn't be talking about this stuff. I'm gonna guess, true to middle school fashion you think I, and others who have become involved with social justice recently are "posers".

Am I right?

[Versus]

Originally Posted by Despanan

That shit's fucked up, yo.

It's always been like this.

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Versus

It's always been like this.

That makes it worse, not better.

[Saya]

When you compare the police to a military, and talk about how bad militarization is, and then backdown from applying that logic to your actual military, that's just being silly. And good cops who aren't doing their duty? Bad cops are doing their duty. This is what cops do. This is what they've always been doing. And yeah, when cops couldn't or wouldn't do it they'd call in the army to do it for them, so you better start thinking about how these institutions work before it ever comes to that again. I'm sorry you're late to the party, but this is what will happen each and every time. The police cannot be reformed. If you were a cop, you'd probably be doing the same things. Either understand how these things work institutionally and realize this has nothing to do with bad apples.

I feel sometimes like I should say I'm not your mother and not obligated to educate you about your own privilege, but privilege makes you pretty blind. You feel comfortable dictating to people that we should accept you as an ally and yet remain willingly blind to how previous allies like you have used and abused us before. You remain willfully ignorant of the sad history of white men who sang the same song before you. You don't get to dictate to us. Those without the same privileges or without any privilege have to decide who they'll ally with.

[Versus]

Additionally,

Originally Posted by Despanan

So, a bunch of cops go to their union and say: "I'm uncomfortable being asked by my command to illegally victimize law-abiding citizens, and I'm uncomfortable with the union supporting those same commanders over me. We need to change our direction because what we're doing is unethical." equals "career death?"

Their actions are not illegal, and their department does not have a purpose other then their jobs. Ethics have nothing to do with it and there is no room for deviation. The NYPD isn't corrupt like that, the system is.

Sometimes I wish you could walk in my shoes for a little bit.

If that's the case then the police have bigger problems thane comparing them to starwars extras.

Except that those problems are internal and don't excuse your "critiques." as anything benign.

[AshleyO]

Originally Posted by Saya

What has changed so fundamentally?

You'd have to ask Despanan. I don't go to these things and have well... nothing to do with OWS. However. What I DO remember from going to the first couple of protests in Zuccotti, the crowd looked pretty damned diverse from all age ranges and ethnicities.

When I was there, there was a lot of black people there, there was a lot of chinese people there, there was a lot of koreans, latinos, and whites.

The only thing that was remotely accurate was that there WERE a lot of white people there. But there was also a LOT of other people there too.

I'm just stating what I saw. So I do find it slightly frustrating to see people level inaccurate charges against what happens at OWS.

Perhaps my eyes were playing tricks on me.

[Saya]

Just because people were there anecdotally at first doesn't mean that nothing bad ever happened. I've been to feminist gatherings where it started off diverse but we've managed to piss off most people of colour and they never came back. I was just having a discussion with a guy the other day, he went to a queer gathering where they made you attend a presentation about privilege, stamped your hand to show you went there and acted like that would solve the problem that in the end it was mostly white people again.

What I'm trying to say is, no offence but I'll take the word of PoC and statistics over anecdotal evidence every time.

[AshleyO]

Fine. It was a bunch of white hipsters.

[Saya]

If I said "white hipsters who dominate OWS andwho made everyone else feel unwelcome or unsafe" would it make you feel that much better?

[AshleyO]

Actually, you're more right than I am. It doesn't matter how I feel about it.

My evidence is anecdotal at best and I should have known better because I myself don't care for anecdotal evidence or experience. Thanks for keeping me in check.

[Despanan]

Sorry, been crazy busy, but I have a few free minutes to respond:

Originally Posted by Saya

Yo, we established in a previous thread that OWS is mostly white and mostly male, in a city where that's not representative of the population.

1) No we didn't. I just got sick of talking to you in that particular thread.

Your statistics were actually pretty insufficient, as they were only polling people who lived in the park. Of course people who live in the park are going to be mostly white and mostly male, that is the subset of society who is privileged enough to live in a park as a means of protest.

That doesn't mean people of color aren't involved. You can't fit 30,000 people into Zuccotti, and it's rather hard to get an accurate headcount when you've got folks from the outer boroughs doing their own community building and their own actions in their own neighborhoods, and joining up with OWS during actions like Mayday and N-17.

Their actions are not illegal, and their department does not have a purpose other then their jobs. Ethics have nothing to do with it and there is no room for deviation. The NYPD isn't corrupt like that, the system is.

Wrongful arrest, obstructing traffic, excessive force, violations of constitutional rights

Oh, and in case you're thinking that this is just a couple of lawsuits and doesn't prove anything the judge ruled in our favor, what they did was illegal, and as the rest of these lawsuits go through, you're going to see more judgements against the NYPD. Over this, over stop-and-frisk Over rampant corruption and illegal activities and institutional racism.

Let's also not forget about their tactic of sexual assault

Just because they're not getting caught (because they're the one's who are supposed to catch people) does not mean that the department is not involved in some seriously shady shit.

Originally Posted by Saya

Either understand how these things work institutionally and realize this has nothing to do with bad apples.

I understand they work institutionally. That does not excuse, even the "good" apples who join them.

I feel sometimes like I should say I'm not your mother and not obligated to educate you about your own privilege, but privilege makes you pretty blind. You feel comfortable dictating to people that we should accept you as an ally and yet remain willingly blind to how previous allies like you have used and abused us before. You remain willfully ignorant of the sad history of white men who sang the same song before you. You don't get to dictate to us. Those without the same privileges or without any privilege have to decide who they'll ally with.

You have to prove this claim Saya. Right now you're just condemning me based upon factors I can't control.

PROVE that I am "willfully ignorant" Because you can't just bandy that kind of charge around. If I am, it should be fairly easy to do, as everything I've said on the matter is written down.

[Despanan]

Also: Statistics!

I went back and looked at what Saya linked because I couldn't remember if it was the park poll or the online NYCGA.co poll that she used. I found something interesting.

These are her original sources:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/1..._n_998722.html

http://www.fastcompany.com/1789018/o...ics-statistics

http://www.fordham.edu/images/academ...s%20102611.pdf

THESE ARE ALL FROM OCTOBER OF 2011.

Shit, one is from October 5th, that's before the Brooklyn bridge for christ's sake.

Not only is this shit positively ancient in terms of how far the movement has come, it still has some very serious problems with it's sample size, AS IT WAS TAKEN ON A WED. IN THE MIDDLE OF THE WORKWEEK.

Once again, not a surprise that there were more privileged people at the park on that day.

Even her own article admits that it finds the results hard to believe:

...And so far, according to the survey, Occupy Wall Street would qualify as stuff white people like. The sample of non-white people, according to Schultz, is too small to even analyze. One thing he noticed, however, is that some people identify with nationality, rather than race--another item to keep in mind for target marketing. And in the vein, the organizers have been discussing doing a “non-white media day,” in which everyone who speaks to the media is of another ethnic background. They have also discussed doing an over-40 day.

On a personal note, I have noticed plenty of both at the park and the marches.

This is really becoming a "who are you going to believe, me or your own lying eyes?" argument.

Also, found a daily Kos Article on this while I was searching for the specific survey:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/1...oo-White-Uh-No

[Versus]

Originally Posted by Despanan

PROVE that I am "willfully ignorant"

Look in the exact same post that this was made in.

Honestly, I thought it was pretty funny.

[Versus]

Originally Posted by Despanan

1) No we didn't. I just got sick of talking to you in that particular thread.

So, what? Her statistics are bullshit because you got frustrated and walked away? Yeah. Okay.

Your statistics were actually pretty insufficient, as they were only polling people who lived in the park. Of course people who live in the park are going to be mostly white and mostly male, that is the subset of society who is privileged enough to live in a park as a means of protest.

Why do you criticize her for this, but the survey in the link you posted was taken at the same place and time?

That doesn't mean people of color aren't involved. You can't fit 30,000 people into Zuccotti, and it's rather hard to get an accurate headcount when you've got folks from the outer boroughs doing their own community building and their own actions in their own neighborhoods, and joining up with OWS during actions like Mayday and N-17.

No, it doesn't mean PoC aren't involved. It means that PoC were disproportionately represented at the time and place of the survey.

Unless you have something that actually shows otherwise other than a comparison of OWS with the nation rather then the city in which it takes place, I think her bullshit statistics are pretty fair.

Just because they're not getting caught (because they're the one's who are supposed to catch people) does not mean that the department is not involved in some seriously shady shit.

That was said in context. Here:

Their (the individual police officers) actions are not illegal, and their department (those individuals' tasking) does not have a purpose other then their jobs. Ethics have nothing to do with it and there is no room for deviation. The NYPD (the individual police officers) isn't corrupt like that, the system (The way in which police are allowed to operate) is.

I understand they work institutionally. That does not excuse, even the "good" apples who join them.

Right. Losing your job and taking your family to the streets isn't an excuse. Okay.

Just curious, but when are you going to get sick of talking about it, again? It would be cool to know.