|
|
|
Politics "Under democracy, one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule -and both commonly succeed, and are right."
-H.L. Menken |
04-10-2008, 06:43 PM
|
#1
|
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Minnesota, USA
Posts: 4,448
|
Che Guevara
I've been reading most of his works and I say, I do like them. Has anyone else read anything by him? If so, what did you think?
__________________
Remember, short controlled bursts.
|
|
|
04-10-2008, 06:56 PM
|
#2
|
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: El Paso, Texas/ Ciudad Juarez, Chihuahua
Posts: 9,203
|
Che and Castro followed the Marxist-Leninist-Trotskyist path of Marxism, but they place too much emphasis on Lenin for my taste.
Other than that, I do see Che and Castro as romantic icons of the 20th century. With all the fame Che has, I don't believe he's overrated; I only believe that people are too fucking idiotic to recognize something for its merits rather than its popularity. If Che was remembered for his ideals and actions, I believe he should be just as famous, and Castro should be just as iconic and loved as Guevara.
They showed the world that change can come out of a radical and swift overthrow of the current system. It was thanks to them that guerillas, both military and artistic, are considered effective.
__________________
"No theory, no ready-made system, no book that has ever been written will save the world.
I cleave to no system. I am a true seeker."
-Mikhail Bakunin
Quote:
Originally Posted by George Carlin
People who say they don’t care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don’t care what people think.
|
|
|
|
04-10-2008, 06:59 PM
|
#3
|
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Minnesota, USA
Posts: 4,448
|
[quote] Che and Castro followed the Marxist-Leninist-Trotskyist path of Marxism, but they place too much emphasis on Lenin for my taste. [quote]
I agree with you Jillian 100%. Lenin is great and all, but too much is too much. I love his works, and I'm glad, you at least know about him, most people I ask have no idea who he is.
__________________
Remember, short controlled bursts.
|
|
|
04-10-2008, 07:47 PM
|
#4
|
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Auckland
Posts: 627
|
Too much Lenin? blasphemy!!
|
|
|
04-10-2008, 07:51 PM
|
#5
|
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: El Paso, Texas/ Ciudad Juarez, Chihuahua
Posts: 9,203
|
Come on, even if Lenin had some nice intentions, he still thought too much of himself and his type. The idea of a vanguard party is terrible.
Now, Che's approach I can respect. His idea of a vanguard party was one of starters of the revolution, not of leaders of it.
__________________
"No theory, no ready-made system, no book that has ever been written will save the world.
I cleave to no system. I am a true seeker."
-Mikhail Bakunin
Quote:
Originally Posted by George Carlin
People who say they don’t care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don’t care what people think.
|
|
|
|
04-10-2008, 08:00 PM
|
#6
|
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: On the fast road to Nowtown!
Posts: 857
|
*insert picture of his visage on a bikini/CD case/other commodity as a marketing tool rather than a crucial historical figure*
__________________
Look at me, guys! I'm twirling my guitar and kicking just like we did at practice!
|
|
|
04-11-2008, 02:41 AM
|
#7
|
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,587
|
Motorcycle Diaries is one of my favorite books.
|
|
|
04-11-2008, 06:11 PM
|
#8
|
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Minnesota, USA
Posts: 4,448
|
Me too Sternn. I'm a big fan of Guerrilla Warfare. It is my favorite book by him. I like his ideas very much.
__________________
Remember, short controlled bursts.
|
|
|
04-12-2008, 05:21 PM
|
#9
|
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 1,021
|
What about the millions of people who've died under these movements? Most of those changes in the end really didn't help any of those people. They just exchanged one horrible govt for another. Sure sounds romantic, not if you're one of those sent to a work camp or re-education camp.. or a mass grave.
|
|
|
04-12-2008, 05:46 PM
|
#10
|
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: El Paso, Texas/ Ciudad Juarez, Chihuahua
Posts: 9,203
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtificialOne
What about the millions of people who've died under these movements?
|
Give me an example of a Leninist-Trotskyist that has killed and oppressed more people than the United States.
__________________
"No theory, no ready-made system, no book that has ever been written will save the world.
I cleave to no system. I am a true seeker."
-Mikhail Bakunin
Quote:
Originally Posted by George Carlin
People who say they don’t care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don’t care what people think.
|
|
|
|
04-12-2008, 05:54 PM
|
#11
|
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,687
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian
Give me an example of a Leninist-Trotskyist that has killed and oppressed more people than the United States.
|
Should we praise people who killed millions in order to erect a shitty government just because others have killed more? Besides Jillian, it's a little silly to compare the impact of individuals and isolated movements with that of a 200 year old superpower.
|
|
|
04-12-2008, 05:58 PM
|
#12
|
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: El Paso, Texas/ Ciudad Juarez, Chihuahua
Posts: 9,203
|
I really don't remember the Cuban Revolution having killed millions; but then I could be wrong.
__________________
"No theory, no ready-made system, no book that has ever been written will save the world.
I cleave to no system. I am a true seeker."
-Mikhail Bakunin
Quote:
Originally Posted by George Carlin
People who say they don’t care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don’t care what people think.
|
|
|
|
04-12-2008, 06:14 PM
|
#13
|
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,687
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian
I really don't remember the Cuban Revolution having killed millions; but then I could be wrong.
|
Heh, yes. Okay, I should have said thousands to conform with the standard estimate, but my main point still stands.
|
|
|
04-12-2008, 06:22 PM
|
#14
|
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: El Paso, Texas/ Ciudad Juarez, Chihuahua
Posts: 9,203
|
Batista's regime faced a lot of civil unrest, while Castro's and Che's guerrillas were supported by the people. Meanwhile Castro's regime is the one seen as evil due to anti-communist propaganda.
The government improved; the majority was content (i.e. democracy), and the death count was low for a revolution.
__________________
"No theory, no ready-made system, no book that has ever been written will save the world.
I cleave to no system. I am a true seeker."
-Mikhail Bakunin
Quote:
Originally Posted by George Carlin
People who say they don’t care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don’t care what people think.
|
|
|
|
04-12-2008, 06:34 PM
|
#15
|
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,687
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian
Batista's regime faced a lot of civil unrest, while Castro's and Che's guerrillas were supported by the people. Meanwhile Castro's regime is the one seen as evil due to anti-communist propaganda.
The government improved; the majority was content (i.e. democracy), and the death count was low for a revolution.
|
That impression might be the result of the post-revolutionary regime's use of any means necessary, including execution without due process of law, to silence dissent against the new government, or Castro's early insistence that he was fighting to restore the democratic government rather than instate communism.
|
|
|
04-12-2008, 06:42 PM
|
#16
|
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: El Paso, Texas/ Ciudad Juarez, Chihuahua
Posts: 9,203
|
I'm not even a communist, but I respect Trotskyists; they produce some of the most egalitarian statist societies.
Anyone that links Stalin and Mao with people lie Trotsky and Castro, doesn't know his communist theory. It is just as logical and justifiable to link Mussolini and Francisco Franco with FDR and most capitalists in the "free world" for their faith in corporatism.
__________________
"No theory, no ready-made system, no book that has ever been written will save the world.
I cleave to no system. I am a true seeker."
-Mikhail Bakunin
Quote:
Originally Posted by George Carlin
People who say they don’t care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don’t care what people think.
|
|
|
|
04-13-2008, 02:21 AM
|
#17
|
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,587
|
Jillian -
Trying to explain Troyskyists, Leninism, and Marxism to Americans is damn near impossible due to the bias teachings they have there. Same goes for the history of Che, Castro, and Cuba.
Most Americans have no idea how life was, is, and the effect the revolution had on the people.
They all have a cultural bias that is constantly supported by US government propaganda.
The best way to explain it is like this -
Communism isn't bad - its good. Now, stalin was a real bastard and many people link his rule to communism, which is where most of the negative stuff comes from.
But stalin was to communism what bush has been to democracy. His politics had little to do with the form of government and everything to do with the mass repeal of civil rights.
Even though stalin followed Lenin, they had little similarities in their style of governing.
Americans are taught the evils of communism through examples of stalinism, which as we know is like night and day.
But try telling that to someone who was raised from birth being told that all communists are 'evil'.
|
|
|
04-13-2008, 02:31 AM
|
#18
|
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Harlem
Posts: 6,909
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian
Give me an example of a Leninist-Trotskyist that has killed and oppressed more people than the United States.
|
No, Jillian, on this I disagree. Always choosing a lesser evil is a cop out. It's giving up and ignoring better standards.
__________________
No Gods. No Kings.
Not all beliefs and ideas are equal.
|
|
|
04-13-2008, 09:49 AM
|
#19
|
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,687
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by CptSternn
Communism isn't bad - its good. Now, stalin was a real bastard and many people link his rule to communism, which is where most of the negative stuff comes from.
But stalin was to communism what bush has been to democracy. His politics had little to do with the form of government and everything to do with the mass repeal of civil rights.
Even though stalin followed Lenin, they had little similarities in their style of governing.
Americans are taught the evils of communism through examples of stalinism, which as we know is like night and day.
But try telling that to someone who was raised from birth being told that all communists are 'evil'.
|
Sternn, once again, I feel you fail to give Americans enough credit. Most educated citizens of the United States are able to dissociate communist ideologies from those who espoused them, and make deliberations on both independently of one another. Although I'm not the biggest communism fan, I don't condemn Che for his political beliefs, but rather for the extreme, inexcusable methods he implemented in prosecuting them. I do admire Guevera's revolutionary spirit as much as the next guy, but in this regard there are heroes far worthier of our respect.
|
|
|
04-13-2008, 11:33 AM
|
#20
|
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,678
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormtrooper of Death
I'm a big fan of Guerrilla Warfare.
|
... What the shit?
|
|
|
04-13-2008, 01:25 PM
|
#21
|
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Minnesota, USA
Posts: 4,448
|
The book JCC, the book.
__________________
Remember, short controlled bursts.
|
|
|
04-13-2008, 01:31 PM
|
#22
|
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,678
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormtrooper of Death
The book JCC, the book.
|
Oh... I still have my suspicions.
|
|
|
04-15-2008, 07:32 AM
|
#23
|
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: elsewhere
Posts: 2,015
|
Based on what I know, I'm of the mind that communism doesn't really work because we're hard-wired to be greedy and lazy.
I like the idea of getting the basics, but being able to sell what you make over your quota. That might work a bit better. People would be more motivated to work to produce/do more than their quota.
Then again, maybe I'm just being naive/uninformed.
__________________
Twinkle, twinkle, little bat
How I wonder where you're at.
Up above the world you fly
Like a tea-tray in the sky.
|
|
|
04-15-2008, 06:12 PM
|
#24
|
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: El Paso, Texas/ Ciudad Juarez, Chihuahua
Posts: 9,203
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaBelleDameSansMerci
I'm of the mind that communism doesn't really work because we're hard-wired to be greedy and lazy.
|
Somalia, Catalonia, Chiapas, Fin de Siecle Paris, Eugene, the Diggers both new and old, prove this opinion of humankind is wrong.
__________________
"No theory, no ready-made system, no book that has ever been written will save the world.
I cleave to no system. I am a true seeker."
-Mikhail Bakunin
Quote:
Originally Posted by George Carlin
People who say they don’t care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don’t care what people think.
|
|
|
|
04-15-2008, 06:38 PM
|
#25
|
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Minnesota, USA
Posts: 4,448
|
I am by no means a communist, far from it, I just like what Che writes.
__________________
Remember, short controlled bursts.
|
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:48 AM.
|
|