Men who care more about their dicks than their Girlfriends.

[Tam Li Hua]

Gothicus: Well, it sounds like he's manipulating her emotionally by acting sad and depressed when she doesn't do what he wants, and that she didn't really want to do it in the first place.

Maybe instead of 'forced', the correct term would be 'coerced'? [Though I do agree with you that she was not, in the strictest sense, forced into doing that. However, it takes someone of very strong will to not be manipulated by the folks that person loves.]

In conclusion, though, I really do think they need to part ways, since they can't seem to reach a mutually satisfying conclusion on this matter, and especially since he seems rather insensitive towards her feelings about sexual relations.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Nothing she said even remotely sounded like he was trying to make her. All she said was that he expressed his desire to have sex.

In a good relationship, desires should be expressed.

[Wynneth]

Hoo boy.

So, I've been reading pages and pages worth of responses to the original thread. And, now, I want to reply--in a quite general and non-targeted manner--to the red flags I've seen.

Firstly, I think that a lot of replies from a lot of people are laced with long-harbored resentment regarding something in their past. Perhaps some of the repliers were in a similar situation and they were on the opposite end of the coin. This could be a manifestation of unacknowledged guilt. The reason I say this is because a lot of the responses are written in an angry, defensive tone, from a slightly aggressive point of view. To those who still nurse old wounds, perhaps it's best to keep your focus on healing your hurts before jumping in to angrily confront Bleed Rebellion (or whomever else)--who isn't the person who hurt you.

Next, it should be noted that Bleed Rebellion also posted her original entry from a very defensive, angry point of view. Why wouldn't she be? As many have pointed out, she cares/loves her boyfriend and doesn't wish to leave him--she even went so far as to say he had her full permission to seek outside carnal comfort, in that she felt unable to do that for him. Bleed Rebellion, if you do even the tiniest bit of research, has had a very difficult life, when it comes to things of a sexual nature. It's natural that she'd be repulsed by anything sexual, as she's got a fair amount of trauma backing that repulsion.

Berating her for "not liking sex" or "sucking him off, then making him feel bad about it" is probably the least wisest course of action, here. Most likely, she did what she did because she felt it was the only way he'd be satisfied. Of course, she feels guilty for not being open to the idea of sex--this is partially what made her feel she was "forced" into giving him oral sex. She said he acted "sad and depressive" if she said no... Who wouldn't feel pressured by that sort of behavior from their mate?

That said, he can't help how he behaves (as teenagers, boys are often ruled by their overabundance of testosterone) and neither can she (being a traumatized victim). It's an unfortunate situation that, unless addressed, will continue to deteriorate. There are no easy answers, here, Bleed Rebellion.

My advice would be to seek counseling. One of the worst facts of life is that one may never be ready for a relationship until one has faced one's demons and attacks them head-on. Knowing is the first step, as always. However, your trauma isn't something that you can fix on your own, most likely. Seeking counseling is your best bet and can help you come to terms with things in your life, making other parts of life easier to face.

Good luck and all the best wishes.

[Tam Li Hua]

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

Nothing she said even remotely sounded like he was trying to make her. All she said was that he expressed his desire to have sex.

In a good relationship, desires should be expressed.

Of course desires should be expressed. But it's wrong to emotionally manipulate another person into doing what you want when you know that they really REALLY don't want to.

People will do a lot of things for their loved ones, even things they don't find very pleasant, and for this guy to take advantage of her in such a way is wrong.

Could she have said no? Yes, she could have, and she did. And after giving in, she felt horrible. So, since there doesn't seem to be a way for the two of them to work out this situation to where it will be mutually satisfying for both of them, they should part ways and find partners who are more suitable for them. And, if this guy does indeed have a sex addiction problem, he needs to get some professional help.

[Tam Li Hua]

Wynneth: That's the most rational thing I've seen posted on this board in a long time, and I couldn't agree with any of it more.

[gothicusmaximus]

Originally Posted by Wynneth

Firstly, I think that a lot of replies from a lot of people are laced with long-harbored resentment regarding something in their past. Perhaps some of the repliers were in a similar situation and they were on the opposite end of the coin. This could be a manifestation of unacknowledged guilt. The reason I say this is because a lot of the responses are written in an angry, defensive tone, from a slightly aggressive point of view. To those who still nurse old wounds, perhaps it's best to keep your focus on healing your hurts before jumping in to angrily confront Bleed Rebellion (or whomever else)--who isn't the person who hurt you.

That anyone who reacted aggressively to Bleed Rebellion must have at one point been involved in a relationship with an individual who wouldn't have sex is a somewhat unreasonable conclusion to draw. This is an internet forum-- we get aggressive, defensive, and angry whenever someone mentions My Chemical Romance, but that doesn't mean Gerard Way killed anyone's cat.

I'm not seeing the manipulative cunning on the part of the boyfriend some people seem to assert as extant. He wanted something, he couldn't have it, it bummed him out. Bleed should have been prepared for the possibility that her boyfriend would be sad when she declined to suck him off, and steeled herself against whatever 'pressure' witnessing that reaction might have created.

[Tam Li Hua]

Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus

I'm not seeing the manipulative cunning on the part of the boyfriend some people seem to assert as extant. He wanted something, he couldn't have it, it bummed him out. Bleed should have been prepared for the possibility that her boyfriend would be sad when she declined to suck him off, and steeled herself against whatever 'pressure' witnessing that reaction might have created.

Most teens that I know of...especially younger ones...don't have the experience or the emotional maturity to be able to "steel" themselves against such things.

For that matter, most adults don't either. :/ Most people don't expect those they love to demand something like that of them when they know how we feel so horrible about it.

[Wynneth]

Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus

That anyone who reacted aggressively to Bleed Rebellion must have at one point been involved in a relationship with an individual who wouldn't have sex is a somewhat unreasonable conclusion to draw. This is an internet forum-- we get aggressive, defensive, and angry whenever someone mentions My Chemical Romance, but that doesn't mean Gerard Way killed anyone's cat.

I'm not seeing the manipulative cunning on the part of the boyfriend some people seem to assert as extant. He wanted something, he couldn't have it, it bummed him out. Bleed should have been prepared for the possibility that her boyfriend would be sad when she declined to suck him off, and steeled herself against whatever 'pressure' witnessing that reaction might have created.

Now, GothicusMaximus... I never said that it was an irrefutable fact that people who replied in such caustic fashions had, indeed, been in a similar situation. There are any number of possibilities--as many as there are people in the world--for their reasons. But, the likeliest cause is that there is a very negative memory in their past (perhaps one of their own personal issues or a friend/family member's) that gets triggered when certain topics come up for discussion.

I see no reason for anyone to get incensed when My Chemical Romance is mentioned. After all, there's an ages old and time attested adage that holds true to this day: if you don't like it, don't listen to/watch/etc. it. There are many bands whose music I detest, but when people post drooling threads over them, I don't feel the need to jump in and spout my hatred for them. Why do you think that is?

Lastly, I didn't say her boyfriend was manipulative, nor cunning. No, I said that he's a boy--a teenager, no less--who is subject to the whims of his body chemistry. He probably didn't realize what his behaviors were doing to Bleed Rebellion. It's an honest mistake that everyone makes at some point in their lives, some who do so on a daily basis. However... Keep in mind that, as a victim of sexual trauma, Bleed Rebellion can't be held accountable for the reactions she has to certain things. She's only human--an emotionally damaged one, at that--and to expect her to be able to handle the entire situation with a calm, cool head is unreasonable.

[gothicusmaximus]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

Most teens that I know of...especially younger ones...don't have the experience or the emotional maturity to be able to "steel" themselves against such things.

For that matter, most adults don't either. :/ Most people don't expect those they love to demand something like that of them when they know how we feel so horrible about it.

What are you talking about? Last night I asked my roommate, who cares for me deeply, to go across the street and get me some KFC. He declined, and held his ground despite my vehement protests. I say no to girls I'm with constantly, in regard to matters of far less importance to me than avoiding sex is to Bleed.
I've known many women who were able remain virgins until marriage, despite dating men who had made no such commitment and certainly expressed their displeasure at that fact. If I'm not mistaken, Tam, you have managed this.

Originally Posted by Wynneth

Now, GothicusMaximus... I never said that it was an irrefutable fact that people who replied in such caustic fashions had, indeed, been in a similar situation. There are any number of possibilities--as many as there are people in the world--for their reasons. But, the likeliest cause is that there is a very negative memory in their past (perhaps one of their own personal issues or a friend/family member's) that gets triggered when certain topics come up for discussion.

That's really not the likeliest cause. Your theory isn't entirely RIDICULOUS, but I wonder how long you've been on the internet if you believe the most probable cause for less than considerate behavior is prior trauma relating to the subject at hand.

I see no reason for anyone to get incensed when My Chemical Romance is mentioned. After all, there's an ages old and time attested adage that holds true to this day: if you don't like it, don't listen to/watch/etc. it. There are many bands whose music I detest, but when people post drooling threads over them, I don't feel the need to jump in and spout my hatred for them. Why do you think that is?

I don't know. I'm mystified, actually. Maybe you're a well-adjusted, self-aware, mature human being possessed of compassion for others and inner serenity. Maybe you're on laughing gas.

Lastly, I didn't say her boyfriend was manipulative, nor cunning. No, I said that he's a boy--a teenager, no less--who is subject to the whims of his body chemistry. He probably didn't realize what his behaviors were doing to Bleed Rebellion. It's an honest mistake that everyone makes at some point in their lives, some who do so on a daily basis. However... Keep in mind that, as a victim of sexual trauma, Bleed Rebellion can't be held accountable for the reactions she has to certain things. She's only human--an emotionally damaged one, at that--and to expect her to be able to handle the entire situation with a calm, cool head is unreasonable.

I was shooting that remark more in Tam's direction than in yours. I think you're selling Bleed a little bit short, though-- although she's had a painful experience, I don't think she should be considered a social and emotional cripple incapable of controlling herself.

[Wynneth]

Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus

That's really not the likeliest cause. Your theory isn't entirely RIDICULOUS, but I wonder how long you've been on the internet if you believe the most probable cause for less than considerate behavior is prior trauma relating to the subject at hand.

No, no. What I said was in regard to those who'd posted caustic, aggressive remarks toward Bleed Rebellion. When people react in a defensive manner, it's usually because it's a touchy subject with them. Of course, that doesn't mean that it's always the way of it--as I said before, as many reasons as there are individuals--but, it's a fairly safe bet. If I'm wrong, oh well. I'm ok with being wrong. But, if my statements have any effect on a wounded individual who may not've realized what they were doing, the way they responded was as a result to some deep-seated issue they hold inside...well, that's all anyone could ask. I'm here, in this thread, to help. Not be right.

Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus

I don't know. I'm mystified, actually. Maybe you're a well-adjusted, self-aware, mature human being possessed of compassion for others and inner serenity. Maybe you're on laughing gas.

Why, thank you. I'd like to think that's the reason, but I know enough to know that I don't know anything. It's a pleasant thought, though. And, would that I were on laughing gas. That'd make my mission of laughing my way through life a lot easier.

Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus

... I think you're selling Bleed a little bit short, though-- although she's had a painful experience, I don't think she should be considered a social and emotional cripple incapable of controlling herself.

By no means to I intend to sell Bleed Rebellion short, at all. I simply don't want to underestimate the damage that may live inside her. She could be well on the road to recovery. Then again, she may have repressed much of the pain, fear and anger that she feels. It's always better to be safe than sorry, when dealing with emotional issues. I'm certain that Bleed Rebellion is a strong young woman. I simply aim to give her advice that may help her regain her sense of self and flip off the demons in her past.

[Tam Li Hua]

Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus

What are you talking about? Last night I asked my roommate, who cares for me deeply, to go across the street and get me some KFC. He declined, and held his ground despite my vehement protests. I say no to girls I'm with constantly, in regard to matters of far less importance to me than avoiding sex is to Bleed.
I've known many women who were able remain virgins until marriage, despite dating men who had made no such commitment and certainly expressed their displeasure at that fact. If I'm not mistaken, Tam, you have managed this.

Indeed, I have, but not exactly for healthy reasons. :/ I completely alienated myself from my class during high school, and I was a bit of a snobbish prick about my religious views when in college. [Hard to imagine, I know. ]

It's only been in -very- recent years that I've started to have a healthier outlook on the subject of sex. Regardless, I wasn't necessarily talking about sex in particular, but rather manipulation.

When I was younger [and sometimes even now], my sister would manipulate me into doing what she wanted by making me seem like a terrible person if I didn't. [I gave into her more when I was a teen than I do now. A LOT more.] I know what it's like to be manipulated by those you love, and it's not fun.

Does that make me love them less? No, of course not. But it -does- make me angry that they don't take my feelings into consideration, and are only focused on what they themselves want.

I imagine that BLEED feels very very similar, which is why I have said what I've said.

[gothicusmaximus]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

Indeed, I have, but not exactly for healthy reasons. :/ I completely alienated myself from my class during high school, and I was a bit of a snobbish prick about my religious views when in college. [Hard to imagine, I know. ]

You? A snobbish prick? NO WAY.

It's only been in -very- recent years that I've started to have a healthier outlook on the subject of sex. Regardless, I wasn't necessarily talking about sex in particular, but rather manipulation.

When I was younger [and sometimes even now], my sister would manipulate me into doing what she wanted by making me seem like a terrible person if I didn't. [I gave into her more when I was a teen than I do now. A LOT more.] I know what it's like to be manipulated by those you love, and it's not fun.

The difference is that your sister was deliberately trying to manipulate you. I see no evidence that Bleed's boyfriend had any such intention here. As I see it, he just told her that he wanted to have sex, and was perceptibly upset when she declined. If that's what passes for manipulation these days, I'm fucking Iago.

[Wynneth]

Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus

As I see it, he just told her that he wanted to have sex, and was perceptibly upset when she declined. If that's what passes for manipulation these days, I'm fucking Iago.

Awesome. Iago is so wonderfully wicked!

But, seriously... There's such a thing as unintentional manipulation and, as I mentioned in a previous post, it's got a lot to do with people who have overactive guilt-complexes. It's simply an unpleasant, unfortunate meeting of conflicting personalities. Sometimes, that's all that's left--you simply don't mesh as a couple.

[BLEED REBELION!!!]

Wynneth: Thanks for you post. I do think yours was coming from a kind place. I dont think I am such an extremely crippled emotional wreck. I'm not just some traumatized victim I think I've come farther than that. It does affect me but I dont think its the one and only cause of all my failings. I think i'm pretty much done with the whole uber victim crying in the corner traumatized little girl thing. I just try not think of it very often anymore because its pointless to cry about it. I mean sometimes it gets to me, but I think life is getting better for me. It can only get better right?

I think he was manipulating me, I'm not sure if he was aware of it or not. I know he loves me and doesnt want or intend to hurt me.

I will not under any circumstance dump him. I love him more than anything else. He is pretty much perfect in alot of other ways. We are very different but over all perfect together. We call eachother all the time just to say I love you. I AM MADLY IN LOVE. And its fucking scary but I dont want to give it up.
I talked to him saturday night and told him I was worried about our relationship because of the "sexual issues". I told him that I was still upset and felt like he wasnt respecting my wishes. So I spent the whole day with him sunday and he didnt ask at all, which is sooo much better than him asking me every time he sees me. I dont know if he'll leave me alone about it forever but I'm happy right now. I dont think dumping him would make my life better. I dont have much else thats worth waking up for in the morning.
I was just sooo very upset because I knew someone had to give in and I thought it was gonna be me. I think he really heard what I was saying this time though.
Dont they say that every relationship has problems? I think that this might be a problem again at some point but I am willing to deal with it. I just get really worried that it might end because of something stupid like sex. This just can get so confusing. I do know I love him. I do know I want to be with him.

[Tam Li Hua]

Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus

You? A snobbish prick? NO WAY.

Heh heh. I know. It's completely unbelievable. [<-- Note sarcastic tone.]

Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus

The difference is that your sister was deliberately trying to manipulate you. I see no evidence that Bleed's boyfriend had any such intention here. As I see it, he just told her that he wanted to have sex, and was perceptibly upset when she declined. If that's what passes for manipulation these days, I'm fucking Iago.

Well, see, that's the thing; I'm not entirely sure that she meant to be manipulative, per se; I think it's just the way she is, unfortunately. [There's a lot more complicated issues between her and I, but I won't go into those here.]

Wynneth: Thus far, I have to say I agree with what you're saying. [I'm not entirely certain now that this guy was trying to be insensitive, unless she told him the story of why she doesn't like it and he STILL pressured her into it.]

[BLEED REBELION!!!]

Yeah, I told him why I didnt like it... he has a theory that I shouldnt "live in fear" and that I should just "try it" which I think is bull shit...

[Tam Li Hua]

BLEED: I'm happy that you two are working things out. However, before the two of you move in together/get married/have actual sex, I think you may want to consider counseling. I mean, if you guys are going to stay together, then it -is- something you will eventually have to do together, and allowing him to do it with other girls isn't really all that great of a solution for the long haul.

Not saying you have to do the deed right now or anything, but it is something you should think about before things get -too- serious.

[Tam Li Hua]

Originally Posted by BLEED REBELION!!!

Yeah, I told him why I didnt like it... he has a theory that I shouldnt "live in fear" and that I should just "try it" which I think is bull shit...

I don't think you should do ANYTHING that you are uncomfortable with. However, I -do- think you guys need to work on some kind of long-term answer that will satisfy you both in the long term and won't damage your relationship, if you stay together.

Something I learned from one of my therapists is that the two main issues married couples argue about are (1) Money and (2) sex. If you guys are planning to stay together, then you NEED to work on this issue. And if you can't find one that satisfies you both, then you NEED to go your separate ways.

[JCC]

Originally Posted by BLEED REBELION!!!

Yeah, I told him why I didnt like it... he has a theory that I shouldnt "live in fear" and that I should just "try it" which I think is bull shit...

Actually, I agree with him 100%, but he's obviously using it as a marketing ploy to get you to blow him.

[BLEED REBELION!!!]

well it seems all of it started becoming a problem at the same time..

My mom found out about the whole molestation thing last summer. And she just told me she knew last night... can you say uncomfortable...... I really didnt want her to know... she cried and I just sat there like " please stop crying"...
IDK she'll send me to therapy if I tell her I want to go...
I guess thats one skeleton out of the closet... lol (but not really).

[Saya]

She probably will send you if you ask, especially after finding that out. It would be a really good idea.

And I actually agree with JCC there, your boyfirned is right that you shouldn't live in fear, and you should try it when you're good and ready, especially if you want to be with him for a long time, you can't ask him to be celibate forever.

[Wynneth]

Originally Posted by BLEED REBELION!!!

Wynneth: Thanks for you post. I do think yours was coming from a kind place.

You're more than welcome. And, I'm glad you think so, because that's certainly how it was meant.

Originally Posted by BLEED REBELION!!!

I dont think I am such an extremely crippled emotional wreck. I'm not just some traumatized victim I think I've come farther than that.

Of course not. I certainly didn't mean to insinuate that you were. However...

Originally Posted by BLEED REBELION!!!

It does affect me but I dont think its the one and only cause of all my failings. I think i'm pretty much done with the whole uber victim crying in the corner traumatized little girl thing. I just try not think of it very often anymore because its pointless to cry about it. I mean sometimes it gets to me, but I think life is getting better for me. It can only get better right?

....This paragraph gives me cause for concern. The aim, in emotional health, is not to "get over it," but to process, heal and learn to live with the impact the trauma had on your life. The fact that it still haunts you and causes you great pain is the key to what I've been attempting to say... Because it still affects you so deeply, it's a sign that you've yet to fully come to terms with it and begin the true healing process.

There's no shame in being a "traumatized little girl". It doesn't make you weak or stupid to feel what you feel. And, when you "try not to think of it very often anymore"...you end up repressing feelings that--I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news--won't go away on their own. There's very much a point to crying about traumatic experiences. It's a stress reliever, a cry for help and an indication that things aren't ok with you, emotionally. It's your brain telling you that you're still sick with hurt and that you need assistance to deal with the weight of things.

Originally Posted by BLEED REBELION!!!

I dont have much else thats worth waking up for in the morning.

This statement is another red flag for your emotional health. Seriously, I can't suggest it strongly enough...you need to seek some counseling, from school or otherwise. This is a big sign of depression and, coupled with your other issues, counseling and therapy would help you out so much.

Originally Posted by BLEED REBELION!!!

I was just sooo very upset because I knew someone had to give in and I thought it was gonna be me. I think he really heard what I was saying this time though.

It's not about who gives in and who doesn't. It's about communication and the respecting of each other, as people. Perhaps he really heard you, or perhaps he's only backed off for a while. Either way, without addressing your emotional distress, do you think that this problem won't end up being the undoing of your relationship?

Originally Posted by BLEED REBELION!!!

Dont they say that every relationship has problems? I think that this might be a problem again at some point but I am willing to deal with it. I just get really worried that it might end because of something stupid like sex. This just can get so confusing. I do know I love him. I do know I want to be with him.

Lots of relationships early in life end because of disagreements about carnal pleasures. And, yes, every relationship has problems--but, the only ones that last and are healthy are kept that way through hard work, open communication between the two people and the commitment from both parties to tough out the rough spots.

The important question for you to ask yourself is: what have I done that's so terrible...that I don't deserve to feel happy and secure in my relationships?

[JCC]

Originally Posted by Wynneth

what have I done that's so terrible...that I don't deserve to feel happy and secure in my relationships?

You've been consistently annoying since you came here.

Oh, you were pretending to be Bleed. My bad.

[Wynneth]

Originally Posted by JCC

You've been consistently annoying since you came here.

Oh, you were pretending to be Bleed. My bad.

I thought you'd decided to ignore my posts. But, I suppose it's really hard to resist taking a jab at a new person. Does it make you feel better? If so, that's good--because it helps you feel good about yourself while, at the same time, revealing just how much you need to feel good about yourself. Also, it doesn't hurt me, at all. -smile-

If, on the other hand, it doesn't make you feel better...well, then, there's little point in doing it; is there?

[HumanePain]

Originally Posted by Wynneth

No, no. What I said was in regard to those who'd posted caustic, aggressive remarks toward Bleed Rebellion. When people react in a defensive manner, it's usually because it's a touchy subject with them.

You guys, what Wynneth is kindly trying to say is that the guys that are responding to Bleed that her boyfriend is right and she is wrong are sexually frustrated (not "traumatized"), and so take the side that says "give us sex! give us sex!". At least Gothicus maturely admitted it:

Originally Posted by The Eminent Gothicus Maximus

we men want some hot action

Wynneth was just trying to say it in a non-confrontational way.