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Old 07-19-2010, 12:59 PM   #51
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what Lolly Pop said. The kids were assholes. They weren't bullied. They were hated for BEING bullies and little shits. I'll bet you think Richard Ramirez is just a troubled guy who needs some loving.
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Old 07-20-2010, 05:04 AM   #52
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For the record I'm a bleeding heart, I think most people here know that, but even I have no sympathy for those kids. The media tried to portray them as poor tortured souls who felt that they had no other choice but if you look at what happened that is far from the case. If you want a sympathetic school shooting look at Virginia Tech, that kid had been crying for serious help for so long and he had a massive breakdown, what happened was the result of years of emotional abuse, an already unstable mind, and denial from his family. There is every reason to believe that it could have been prevented with good parenting and a more supportive environment. The only way that could have prevented what happened at Columbine is that maybe someone would have figured things out in time to stop them.
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Old 07-20-2010, 11:31 AM   #53
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Hate crimes aren't for different people, they're for everyone, a white person can be the victim of a hate crime just as much as a black person. However, the reason to pursue a crime as a hate crime bears down a heavier sentence on a crime that otherwise would get a light sentence. For example, the murder of a transwoman by a man that felt he was "deceived" and killed her when he found out that she was trans. If pursued as any kind of murder a jury would probably feel sympathetic and would blame the victim for not disclosing that she was trans. As a hate crime case, however, we work from the angle that discriminating against transsexuals is just as bad as killing someone if they were black or Christian or whatever, the jury can't give him a lighter sentence and would be more likely to sympathize with the victim.
If the jury doesn't already have sympathy for the victim, how is a law going to make them have it?

Personally, I think the change that needs to be affected is social, not legal. Murder is murder, no matter who does it to who.

You can't litigate sympathy and you can't manufacture tolerance.

Social change is an agonizingly slow process, but it works.
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Old 07-20-2010, 12:15 PM   #54
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Did you not read Saya's post or are you that dense?
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Old 07-20-2010, 12:39 PM   #55
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If the jury doesn't already have sympathy for the victim, how is a law going to make them have it?
Motive has everything to do with sentencing, it can make the difference between first degree murder or second degree. With hate crime its presented that the crime was not random, the criminal purposefully targeted the victim as a member of a group. And not just in cases of murder, I think spray painting your nickname on someone's house isn't quite as concerning as targeting a Jewish home and spray painting swastikas all over it.

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Personally, I think the change that needs to be affected is social, not legal. Murder is murder, no matter who does it to who.
But someone who murders out of insanity is different from someone who murders out of anger is different from a skinhead beating a black man to death because he was black. Motive is always taken in consideration.

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You can't litigate sympathy and you can't manufacture tolerance.

Social change is an agonizingly slow process, but it works.
Criminalizing hate crimes doesn't necessarily make people more sympathetic but it sets the rules for sentencing, allows the prosecution to use bigotry as a motive, which also sets for the argument that the defendant is a danger to society. If the prosecution can prove it was a hate crime, the jury can't set a light sentence like probation for murder, because a hate crime conviction requires heavier sentencing.

Laws themselves won't make society more tolerant but it can protect those unfairly targeted by a bigoted society.
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Old 07-21-2010, 01:00 PM   #56
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You know Saya, I haven't really done enough research on this to argue either point effectively.

Your points are ones I am loathe to disagree with, without more information regarding the whole thing.

I came to this realization as I was doing some initial research into the matter, and realized that there really may be an actual need for this type of legislation.

I also learned that, concerning most crimes, motivation doesn't come into play at all unless one is trying to prove a civil suit to be malicious or if one is trying to prove self-defense.

I must re-evaluate my previous stance... if it stays the same I'll be back for more...
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Old 07-21-2010, 01:32 PM   #57
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I can help. This topic goes on the Whining Forum.
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Old 07-25-2010, 02:41 PM   #58
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what Lolly Pop said. The kids were assholes. They weren't bullied. They were hated for BEING bullies and little shits. I'll bet you think Richard Ramirez is just a troubled guy who needs some loving.
He is! You are so heartless!! They need to lovingly sit his ass into the loving chair, flip the switch and lovingly fry his ass to death!
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Old 04-22-2012, 12:28 PM   #59
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I have been to the Sophie Lancaster memorial bench, paid for by te Goths that go to Whitby Goth Weekend.
Having been a victim of a similar attack myself, the assault of Sophie and Robert hits a raw nerve with me and anyone that says that this wasn't a hate crime is blinkered. Any one saying that a goth can choose to not dress like a goth is basically saying that no-one can dress as they like.
We're meant to be living in a free society. Just because someone doesn't like the way you dress is no reason for them to beat you to a bloody pulp. It is this same mentality that breeds football hooliganism.
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