Arizona Governor signs immigration bill

[Saya]

Phoenix, Arizona (CNN) -- Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer signed a bill Friday that requires police in her state to determine whether a person is in the United States legally, which critics say will foster racial profiling but supporters say will crack down on illegal immigration.
The bill requires immigrants to carry their alien registration documents at all times and requires police to question people if there is reason to suspect that they're in the United States illegally. It also targets those who hire illegal immigrant day laborers or knowingly transport them.
The Republican governor also issued an executive order that requires additional training for local officers on how to implement the law without engaging in racial profiling or discrimination.
"This training will include what does and does not constitute reasonable suspicion that a person is not legally present in the United States," Brewer said after signing the bill.
"Racial profiling is illegal. It is illegal in America, and it's certainly illegal in Arizona," Brewer said.
The rules, to be established in by the Arizona Peace Officers Standards and Training Board, are due back to her in May. The law goes into effect 90 days after the close of the legislative session, which has not been determined.
What will Arizona's immigration law do?
Previously, officers could check someone's immigration status only if that person was suspected in another crime.
Brewer's executive order was in response to critics who argue that the new law will lead to racial profiling, saying that most police officers don't have enough training to look past race while investigating a person's legal status.
"As committed as I am to protecting our state from crime associated with illegal immigration, I am equally committed to holding law enforcement accountable should this stature ever be misused to violate an individual's rights," Brewer said.
She added that the law would probably be challenged in courts and that there are those outside Arizona who have an interest in seeing the state fail with the new measure.
"We cannot give them that chance. We must use this new tool wisely and fight for our safety with the honor Arizona deserves."
The bill is considered to be among the toughest immigration measures in the nation. Supporters say the measure is needed to fill a void left by the federal government's failure to enforce its immigration laws.


Its leading sponsor, state Sen. Russell Pearce, said this week, "Illegal is not a race; it's a crime."
"We're going to take the handcuffs off of law enforcement. We're going to put them on the bad guy," said Pearce, a Republican.
Fellow Republican state Sen. Frank Antenori said the biggest reason he supported the bill was because a rancher in one of the counties he represents was murdered by someone who crossed the U.S. border with Mexico illegally. He said the person of interest in the killing had crossed the border numerous times and cited other similar violent crimes.
"The citizens of this state are tired of the catch and release that is going on by the federal government where they grab people, they process them, and they take them back and drop them on the other side of the border," Antenori said. "They just come back, and we have no border security down here."
After the signing, the Arizona Association of Chiefs of Police, which had opposed the measure, issued a statement saying, "law enforcement professionals in the State of Arizona will enforce the provisions of the new law to the best of their abilities."
The state's largest police union, the Arizona Police Association, is in favor of the law.
In the hours leading up to the bill's signing, about 2,000 people rallied at the Arizona capital, and President Barack Obama, in the nation's capital, called the legislation "misguided" but said the federal government must act on the immigration issue.
Read excerpts from remarks Friday by Obama and Brewer
"Our failure to act responsible at the federal level will only open the door to irresponsibility by others. That includes, for example, the recent efforts in Arizona, which threaten to undermine basic notions of fairness that we cherish as Americans, as well as the trust between police and their communities that is so crucial to keeping us safe," the president said at a naturalization ceremony for 24 members of the military.
Brewer's counterpart in neighboring New Mexico, Gov. Bill Richardson, called the new law "a terrible piece of legislation."
"It's against the democratic ideals of this country," he told CNN's "Situation Room." "It's a step backwards. It's impractical."
He said the law would not combat the problem of illegal immigration or take the place of comprehensive reform.
iReport: Share your thoughts on immigration policy
Latino members of Congress also slammed the bill.
"When you institutionalize a law like this one, you are targeting and discriminating at a wholesale level against a group of people," Rep. Raul Grijalva, D-Arizona, said Tuesday.
Grijalva closed his two district offices Friday when an unidentified caller threatened to blow up his Tucson office and kill his staff members. The caller also said he was going to be "exercising my civil liberties, and I'm shooting Mexicans at the border," according to Grijalva's district director, Ruben Reyes, who fielded one of the calls.
Grijalva and Rep. Luis Gutierrez, chairman of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus, had called on Brewer to veto the measure.
Gutierrez is a leading supporter of a proposed overhaul of U.S. immigration laws and said the Arizona issue shows why an overhaul is necessary. He has urged Obama to "put his back into the push" and to let Arizona know that federal law trumps state legislation on immigration.
Challenges expected - Coverage from CNN affiliate KPHO
The Virginia-based Hispanic Leadership Fund also criticized the law, saying in a written statement, "Having to 'carry your papers' is a hallmark of authoritarian regimes -- not of the Constitutional Republic that our Founding Fathers wisely passed on to us. Arizonans and all Americans deserve an immigration system that works, not a draconian big government desecration of the Bill of Rights."
Brewer said that "decades of federal inaction and misguided policies" have created "a dangerous and unacceptable situation."
The governor said Arizona's law mirrors federal statutes on immigration enforcement, "despite the erroneous and misleading statements suggesting otherwise."
Asked what criteria will be used to establish reasonable suspicion of someone's legal status, Brewer said, "I don't know. I do not know what an illegal immigrant looks like."
However, she added, her executive order requires the Arizona Peace Officers Standards and Training Board to address the issue.
"I know that if AZPOST gets [itself] together, works on this law, puts down the description, that the law will be enforced civilly, fairly and without discriminatory points to it."

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/04/....html?on.cnn=1

I don't see how this can't turn to racial profiling. So you see a white person who talks funny, you think he's a immigrant, but he's actually from Maine and he has no papers, but because you think he is an immigrant you arrest him for not having a passport? But if you just go for the dark skinned Spanish speaking immigration suspects, its racial profiling, right? So how would this not amount to everyone having to carry their birth certificates or passports around?

[Renatus]

I would assume a driver's lisense, or some other sort of US identification would also suffice. I'm guessing they specificly mention immegration papers because immegrants dont normally have any other sort of US identification. I'm curious about how the law covers children.

[Saya]

Yeah but if you're a pedestrian you might not be carrying any identification, when I go out I only bring cash, debit card and my phone.

And thats not the only problem it creates. Anyone who's living in Arizona perfectly legally apparently have to have identification on them at all times, to remind them that they'll never really be American. And for the illegal immigrants, now they'll never call the police for help, ever.

And I forgot to also link to an article that says Church leaders oppose the new law and will refuse to comply: http://www.christianpost.com/article...hurch-leaders/

[CptSternn]

I wonder if they will be stopping all white people to check to make sure they are not illegal Canadians.

Reading the article and seeing the 30,000 attached comments not to mention the interviews on the news with supporters is like watching a klan rally. I have never seen so misguided, ignorant people in once place blaming so much, incorrectly, on one group of people.

According to the bills supporters, illegals take up all the jobs, are the cause of all the drug violence in America, overfill the public schools, and are the source of all crime in their state.

I mean, if that were true, how do you explain Detroit? Or Maryland?

Whats worse is the republican party, including john mccain, who is helping lead this ignorant lot by fueling the fire and echoing the same tripe.

Some people are saying they know this law will be repealed once it is reviewed in Federal court, which is why mccain and the lot are supporting it - because they really don't support it but want to seem to be in support of it to gain brownie points with their constituents. The only problem is, if that is true, then they are willing to sacrifice the lives and rights of a large swath of the population in efforts to get votes.

I don't know which is worse - actually supporting this bill or acting like you do knowing it will later be rescinded because of its illegality, in the meantime destroying many lives and families.

[Ben Lahnger]

I would have never guessed it would take the lawmakers in Arizona to make me say, "Thank Goodness I live in Texas!"

[alchemie]

Oh geez. It's not racial profiling. I remember when I went to Europe, I was expected to carry around my passport to prove who I was, in case I got asked. Is that racial profiling? No, it isn't. Its identification of who you are and where you're from, etc. Like carrying around a Driver's License.

I believe that the reason why they are doing it is simple - Mexicans are jumping the border ALL the time illegally. The country is in serious trouble with debt, and there are over 10 million illegal immigrants in the country (who ARE mainly Mexicans) who aren't paying taxes. My city had a 110% jump in Mexican population in the last 5 years.

Anywayz, I saw something about it on State of the Union or Meet the Press this morning. They were saying that they believe that the reason why Arizona took it upon themselves to do something like this is to get the federal government's attention. Something does need to be done about it. But honestly, I won't be surprised if my state tries to do it too.

[alchemie]

Originally Posted by Saya

Yeah but if you're a pedestrian you might not be carrying any identification, when I go out I only bring cash, debit card and my phone.

In the United States, you can get a ticket for that. For not carrying around any identification. Well, that is if a cop wants to give you one. He can also put you in jail too I believe. Even though I used to live there over 10 years ago, I don't remember the laws in Canada.

[CptSternn]

You don't have to carry identification in America or Europe. Some localities over the years have tried to enforce similar laws in America, but all have been struck down by Federal courts.

Also, illegal aliens pay plenty of tax. In fact, they pay as much as 51% of Americans pay.

Per a previous article I posted and a fact you can Google - 51% of Americans paid no income tax this year because they make little enough not to have to pay anything or they get a refund.

They do however pay sales tax when they buy anything, tax on their car, tax on their services, and luxury tax on any large items they may buy - on top of any other local taxes which are included in rent/mortgage/sales/etc.

Sure, illegals are not registered to pay income tax because they get paid cash in hand, but the reality is that 51% of Americans ARE registered and either pay nothing or get a refund - putting them in the same category.

Lets also not forget why Mexicans come to America - for work. Companies and employers are hiring them here. Why? Either they cannot compete with businesses who outsource to India/China or they cannot find Americans willing to do the work they have.

There have been a few documentaries on this, as well as CBS news did a nice piece on it this time last year. A lettuce farmer in California was well known for hiring illegals. They interviewed him and he was very honest and said he would love to hire Americans, he showed where he had posted help wanted ads in a few papers, online, and even went to local job fairs trying to find workers for his farm, but no one is willing to spend all day in the burning hot sun doing back breaking work bent over picking lettuce for minimum wage. Even at minimum wage he still has a tough time competing with companies which import lettuce from South America and South East Asia. Every year he tries to hire Americans, and to date, not one has ever answered any of his ads or posts.

This is the same thing happening in Florida with the orange growers. Most people think illegals only live in the South-West, but it turns out, they move in mass to Florida every year to work on all the orange farms. Without them, the industry would collapse for the exact same reason. They interviewed farm owners there who echoes similar stories. The main difference was though, the State of Florida recognises this issue and welcomes the cheap foreign labour, else if the industry goes under it takes away billions in tax and revenue in a major industry. The local politicians interviewed were very supportive of the illegal immigrants and have programmes in place to help them as they realise how dependant their own economy is on this labour.

It seems the right-wing in Arizona are using the Mexicans as a scapegoat for problems which are happening not just in Arizona but everywhere in America. What that are ignoring is the fact their very own livelihood depends on these individuals and getting rid of them would be detrimental to their own economy. But as long as you have people willing to sell hate, fear, and bigotry to the masses for votes, you will continue to see people easily mislead by these sorts of initiatives.

[ape descendant]

Dey took er jebs!! Derk a dur!!

I think this is law is a bad idea.. I see with my "child collision psychic powers", that this will lead to abuse of power and violations of privacy.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by alchemie

Oh geez. It's not racial profiling. I remember when I went to Europe, I was expected to carry around my passport to prove who I was, in case I got asked. Is that racial profiling? No, it isn't. Its identification of who you are and where you're from, etc. Like carrying around a Driver's License.

When going for a visit, its wise to keep important papers on your body because it can get stolen and then you'd be fucked. If you're a perfectly legal citizen who lives there, there's no reason.

Furthermore, how will it not amount to racial profiling? What does an illegal immigrant look like? Hispanic? Even you go on to identify Mexicans alone as the problem, so Hispanics and legal Mexicans would be targeted.

Anywayz, I saw something about it on State of the Union or Meet the Press this morning. They were saying that they believe that the reason why Arizona took it upon themselves to do something like this is to get the federal government's attention. Something does need to be done about it. But honestly, I won't be surprised if my state tries to do it too.

Yes, amnesty and guest worker programs, but certain states would rather discriminate against a race or shoot them at the border.

In the United States, you can get a ticket for that. For not carrying around any identification. Well, that is if a cop wants to give you one. He can also put you in jail too I believe. Even though I used to live there over 10 years ago, I don't remember the laws in Canada.

You can get a ticket for driving without your drivers liscense, but there is no law that says all persons have to have identification on them at all times. Nor is it that way in Canada. Sternn addresses every other point on which you are wrong quite well so I'll leave it at that.

In other news, Salon has a good article on how this law is unconstitutional and much of it will probably get thrown out before it affects anyone:

http://www.salon.com/news/immigratio...constitutional

[Ben Lahnger]

Currently, most of us can understand (even if we are saddened by the necessity of it) that airport safety screening agents might spend more time reviewing people of obvious Arabic descent. It may seem racist, but the expectation that the next terrorist who is going to try to board and blow up a plane could be Arabic falls in line with the knowledge that most terrorist activity directed toward the U.S. and it's citizens is of Arabic origin at this time in our history.

Arizona has an estimated 460,000 illegal immigrants. Arizona's law makes what is already a federal offense -- being in the country illegally -- a state offense. It remains the ugly but true fact that nearly all illegal immigrants in Arizona are Hispanic in origin ... so I would expect that law enforcement officers with an interest in performing their job duties as fairly and as efficiently as possible, would have an understandable bias toward watching for suspicious people of Hispanic origin.

To quote George F Will's commentary in the Washington Post:

... Arizona's statute is not presumptively unconstitutional merely because it says that police officers are required to try to make "a reasonable attempt" to determine the status of a person "where reasonable suspicion exists" that the person is here illegally. The fact that the meaning of "reasonable" will not be obvious in many contexts does not make the law obviously too vague to stand. The Bill of Rights -- the Fourth Amendment -- proscribes "unreasonable searches and seizures." What "reasonable" means in practice is still being refined by case law -- as is that amendment's stipulation that no warrants shall be issued "but upon probable cause." There has also been careful case-by-case refinement of the familiar and indispensable concept of "reasonable suspicion."

And so the statute and it's implementation should be judged on a case by case basis. But the need for some action on the state's part in the wake of decades of Federal inactivity in inescapable.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Ben Lahnger

Currently, most of us can understand (even if we are saddened by the necessity of it) that airport safety screening agents might spend more time reviewing people of obvious Arabic descent. It may seem racist, but the expectation that the next terrorist who is going to try to board and blow up a plane could be Arabic falls in line with the knowledge that most terrorist activity directed toward the U.S. and it's citizens is of Arabic origin at this time in our history.

Its still illegal to racially profile Arabs or Persians or black people or Hispanics, while people are human and Arabs no doubt get stopped more at airports, they still have their rights. Its not comparable to demanding that all Mexican immigrants have their papers with them at all times, even if they grew up in the states and/or live there legally. And the law is very vague as to what happens when you don't have ID, presumably you will be detained until they can verify your status. It gives the police so much power and the civilians none. Even the Governor has no idea how this law will be implemented, thats a very very bad sign.

Arizona has an estimated 460,000 illegal immigrants. Arizona's law makes what is already a federal offense -- being in the country illegally -- a state offense. It remains the ugly but true fact that nearly all illegal immigrants in Arizona are Hispanic in origin ... so I would expect that law enforcement officers with an interest in performing their job duties as fairly and as efficiently as possible, would have an understandable bias toward watching for suspicious people of Hispanic origin.

To quote George F Will's commentary in the Washington Post:

... Arizona's statute is not presumptively unconstitutional merely because it says that police officers are required to try to make "a reasonable attempt" to determine the status of a person "where reasonable suspicion exists" that the person is here illegally. The fact that the meaning of "reasonable" will not be obvious in many contexts does not make the law obviously too vague to stand. The Bill of Rights -- the Fourth Amendment -- proscribes "unreasonable searches and seizures." What "reasonable" means in practice is still being refined by case law -- as is that amendment's stipulation that no warrants shall be issued "but upon probable cause." There has also been careful case-by-case refinement of the familiar and indispensable concept of "reasonable suspicion."

And so the statute and it's implementation should be judged on a case by case basis. But the need for some action on the state's part in the wake of decades of Federal inactivity in inescapable.

A need for action doesn't mean that they get to trample on everyone else's rights. How do you judge reasonable suspicion that someone is an immigrant illegally? Again, what does an illegal immigrant look or act like? And in a bill so vague and so unkeen on limiting the powers of the police, how can we trust them to act out of the goodness of their hearts at all times?

[vindicatedxjin]

My friend mentioned this to me not too long ago. She's paranoid now, that it will somehow be accepted in Tx eventually too.

[CptSternn]

I don't think people are getting the full picture here. Another issue will be abuse by citizens.

There was a legal case a few years back where I guy beat the crap out of his girlfriend (in Texas). She was illegal, living there for years. She pressed charges. He then called the INS and had her deported before the case came up for trial.

If your a woman beater, this law is for you. In fact, if you want to screw over lots of people, then this law is perfect. Got a business partner you want out of the picture? Deport them. Want to blackmail a whole family? Here is your chance.

It makes hundreds of thousands of people fugitive and wait and see how many are abused by police and their own neighbors over this. You thought they got paid less before? Employers now can hold this over their heads. It's basically taking the cuffs off slave labour. I mean, what is to stop some paedo from running a sex ring with kids, then when arrested pointing out they are illegal and having them deported before trial? No evidence, no victims, no trial - just like yer man in Texas.

Lets not forget the police. They can pick and choose who to deport. Look at a cop the wrong way, they can deport you. Unless you know one who thinks you are ok, then you will get a pass.

It opens up human beings to behavior that hasn't been socially acceptable since the dark ages.

[Still Jack]

Here in Luxembourg, you're not exactly legally required to carry I.D. on you all the time, but it'll save you a shitload of time with the fuzz. I have to carry either a) my passport, or b) my carte de séjour , which is basically like my green card. It's not that big a deal.

Also, that law isn't gonna solve diddly squat, the people who don't wanna get deported are just gonna go to one of the surrounding states.

[vindicatedxjin]

I just heard on the radio that Obama spoke against the law, and then I vaguely heard a comment about the majority of states boycotting against Arizona perhaps. Anyone know anything more on this?
As much as I don't really like Obama, maybe he might be doing a few things right.

[Ben Lahnger]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

It makes hundreds of thousands of people fugitive ...

Wait ... they're already fugitives ... illegal immigrants ARE here "illegally". Anyone who is not here illegally will not end up being a fugitive.

There will be opportunities (that already exist now) to abuse immigration law, but let's not forget that Arizona currently has over 460,000 people who ARE fugitives exactly because they aren't supposed to be there. 70% of Arizona citizens support this bill.

The law is going to get the review on a national level that you all seem to think it needs, but I'm still concerned that the root cause is not going to be dealt with.

[vindicatedxjin]

I just think they are going about it, in the wrong manner to begin with.

[Ben Lahnger]

The point of all this is this; what is the right manner and why isn't someone doing it?

[vindicatedxjin]

Money perhaps?

I have a bunch of friends that came here illegally when they were infants. Some don't even know how to speak Spanish, yet they can't get a drivers license.
I have kinda mixed feelings, as far as older illegals go. I used to stay in Mexico for months at a time when I was younger. Although my Stepdad's family were pretty well off...I saw the excessive poverty there. I guess I "understand" why they want to come here...and why they make that huge sacrifice of possibly losing everything in the process. It's really sad. But I also understand why Americans feel the way they do... even though the outlook is somewhat selfish in nature.

[Ben Lahnger]

I want to live in a nation of laws. I also want to live in a sovereign nation. By necessity, that means it needs to be a country that can control who has the right to enter and leave it. Nothing selfish about it.

Are conditions bad in other countries? Absolutely. And a wise people would work to correct those injustices around the globe. That does happen in some part due to various government programs and public/private ventures as varied as The Red Cross, Doctors Without Borders, The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation and countless others. Is it enough? No, but the tide is turning in that regard.

None of that detracts from the right and necessity of a sovereign nation to control its own borders. The unemployment rate in this country is very bad at this time, and unemployed citizens in Arizona are rightly concerned with how many of those 460,000 people are doing jobs they could be doing. With the economy the way it is, there is no longer a sentiment in the public at large that the illegals are doing jobs nobody else wants to do. And the cost of these illegal immigrants on public resources at a time when most states are facing staggering deficits and laying off civil employees has to be accounted for.

I'm not saying that illegal immigrants shouldn't be dealt with humanely, but they need to be dealt with. And I don't see anyone putting forward a real alternative solution.

[vindicatedxjin]

I think you have every right to those opinions, but what do you think about the Illegals that are my age, in they're early twenties, who lived here they're whole lives... with absolutely nothing in Mexico, but end up getting deported, leaving them with nowhere to go?

[Ben Lahnger]

While cases like that cannot be used as an argument against trying to control or stop illegal immigration, they can be dealt with on a case by case basis. Politicians have been trying float programs for immigration amnesty and they keep getting shot down.

[Ben Lahnger]

I gotta admit, this Daily Show clip covering the prospect of the Arizona law promoting profiling makes the point and is pretty darned funny too.

Law & Border

"As Justice Louis Brandeis once wrote, 'The states are the laboratories of Democracy, a place where programs can be developed and tested to solve national problems.' And then there's Arizona ... It turns out Arizona is the meth lab of democracy."

[Solumina]

The only way to really deal with illegal immigration that will make any difference is to deal with the people who employ them, if there is no chance of a job then they will stop coming. The problem with this is that it would make so many local economies fail that nobody, in any level of government could hope to pass anything, let alone enforce, something that would make a difference.

Something else that would help is an overhaul of the Welfare system. There are still plenty of US citizens who would much rather collect Welfare then work, this isn't to say that everyone abuses the system, or that even a majority does, but there is a significant minority that does, not to mention people who are seriously looking for work and deserve the help but that get more from welfare than they would get from the jobs they are finding. It would take a hell of a lot of time and effort but the savings would be well worth it as we could drastically reduce the drain on the system, but that would be political suicide for anyone to attempt right now as Americans are having a hard enough time swallowing health care reform. As an added bonus many of them would be forced to get a job that they had previously thought was beneath them, which would make those jobs unavailable for illegals. I know that most of the jobless here in the states say that they are willing to work any job but I also know people who are collecting unemployment because it is more than they would get from a minimum wage job and that it is actually quite difficult to collect partial unemployment. I also know quite a few places that are hiring, despite being posted on Monster, Career Builder, and Jobs.com the positions just aren't being filled, despite the unemployment rates of all of the surrounding localities being over 8.5%, hell my department is trying to hire 5 new people, starting at $9 and hour to mostly sit around but so far I'm the only new hire the department has had since last Summer, and the unemployment rate in Williamsburg is 18.3%.