Judas was only playing his part in a greater play...

[CptSternn]

Discovery and National Geographic did shows on this recently. I think one scholar put it best when he said, you know, even back then you had people write crap thats not true.

Do you believe everything you read on the internet? Then why believe this document.

If you believe in Jesus, Christianity, etc. then you must believe in the Bible. It is a mixture of various works all put together many, many years ago, by the hand of God. To question why this information is NOT there is to question God. If God wanted that book in the Bible, he would have made sure it was included. Therefore one must also assume the current state and thoughts on Judas are EXACTLY what God wanted.

Also, note in Revelations it clearly states anyone 'adding' to the content of the Bible will burn in hell.

Kinda clear cut that people, who believe, shouldn't be looking for more outside sources or view points on subjects covered within.

[Sobeh]

Some false assumptions in here:

Originally Posted by CptSternn

...even back then you had people write crap thats not true. Do you believe everything you read on the internet?

This is a good point to remember about religious texts - each and every one of them has context, and an agenda. Even if that 'agenda' is to convey Truth as understood by the writer, it is an agenda nonetheless, and one that will assuredly run counter to other agendas in play elsewhere.

Originally Posted by CptSternn

If you believe in Jesus, Christianity, etc. then you must believe in the Bible. It is a mixture of various works all put together many, many years ago, by the hand of God.

This isn't true for a number of reasons. First, it is true that the Bible used by Christians is thought to be divine and correct, but there are many different versions of the Bible, and many translations as well. KJV doesn't have the same text, in key places, that the NIV has, and you've got the Apocrypha to deal with, both New Testament and Tanakh varieties. Then you've got the Nag Hammadi library, with texts that didn't make it past the Council of Nicea into orthodoxy, yet nevertheless were produced at the same time or earlier than the Gospels which did make the cut. It's all very complex.

Originally Posted by CptSternn

To question why this information is NOT there is to question God. If God wanted that book in the Bible, he would have made sure it was included. Therefore one must also assume the current state and thoughts on Judas are EXACTLY what God wanted.

That fact that current thoughts on Judas aren't the same among Christians worldwide makes that statement very strange. It sounds like you're saying confusion about Judas is what God wanted.

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Also, note in Revelations it clearly states anyone 'adding' to the content of the Bible will burn in hell.

Odd, since Revelation was written before the Council at Nicea said what was going to be included in the Bible and what should be left out.

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Kinda clear cut that people, who believe, shouldn't be looking for more outside sources or view points on subjects covered within.

This denies Christians the chance to study and read and engage in theology. These kinds of texts aren't the Big Scandals media outlets intend to portray them as. Proper faith isn't shaken by this kind of thing any more than it was shaken by Dan Brown. If ones faith was shaken, well, don't blame the authors...

[Engulfed_in_darkness]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

You know what I don't get?
Why do they call Judas a traitor?
It was Jesus who made Judas betray him.

John 13:21-27
21 When Jesus had said these things, He was troubled in spirit, and testified and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, one of you will betray Me.” 22 Then the disciples looked at one another, perplexed about whom He spoke.
23 Now there was leaning on Jesus’ bosom one of His disciples, whom Jesus loved. 24 Simon Peter therefore motioned to him to ask who it was of whom He spoke.
25 Then, leaning back[a] on Jesus’ breast, he said to Him, “Lord, who is it?”
26 Jesus answered, “It is he to whom I shall give a piece of bread when I have dipped it.” And having dipped the bread, He gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. 27 Now after the piece of bread, Satan entered him. Then Jesus said to him, “What you do, do quickly.”

So, wasn't it because of the bread?

The new gospel is lying. Jesus did nothing. This is just Satan subjugating the media to drag more people into the depths of Hell nowadays. Why? Because he needs more sinners for the rapture is coming. The apocalypse is just a turn away and it WILL happen in 2012. When the antichrist is here the end is as well. And the antichrist is here. www.bushisantichrist.com The final close to the end of the world will be the prophecy of Suntelia Aion in which the sun will rise out of the mouth of the Oroborous star system for within its design it looks like a serpent biting his own tail.

[Sobeh]

Originally Posted by Engulfed_in_darkness

The new gospel is lying. Jesus did nothing. This is just Satan subjugating the media to drag more people into the depths of Hell nowadays. Why? Because he needs more sinners for the rapture is coming. The apocalypse is just a turn away and it WILL happen in 2012. When the antichrist is here the end is as well. And the antichrist is here. www.bushisantichrist.com The final close to the end of the world will be the prophecy of Suntelia Aion in which the sun will rise out of the mouth of the Oroborous star system for within its design it looks like a serpent biting his own tail.

"Once upon a time there were three Billy Goats called Gruff. In the winter they lived in a barn in the valley. When spring came they longed to travel up to the mountains to eat the lush sweet grass. On their way to the mountains the three Billy Goats Gruff had to cross a rushing river. But there was only one bridge across it, made of wooden planks. And underneath the bridge there lived a terrible, ugly, one-eyed troll."

Source

If it turns out otherwise I might just show you why you're wrong, E_i_d.

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by Sobeh

Some false assumptions in here:

This is a good point to remember about religious texts - each and every one of them has context, and an agenda. Even if that 'agenda' is to convey Truth as understood by the writer, it is an agenda nonetheless, and one that will assuredly run counter to other agendas in play elsewhere.

Ummm...no. Just because it's old doesn't mean it's true. Could just be a storey written by some bored lad who left it behind. Thats all I was saying with that first statement. I was repeating exactly what yer man on Discovery said, cuz it makes sense. This text is alone in its writtings, so whos to say its authentic?

This isn't true for a number of reasons. First, it is true that the Bible used by Christians is thought to be divine and correct, but there are many different versions of the Bible, and many translations as well. KJV doesn't have the same text, in key places, that the NIV has, and you've got the Apocrypha to deal with, both New Testament and Tanakh varieties. Then you've got the Nag Hammadi library, with texts that didn't make it past the Council of Nicea into orthodoxy, yet nevertheless were produced at the same time or earlier than the Gospels which did make the cut. It's all very complex.

It's not complete and it is true. Yes, interpretations of the Bible do exist, but NONE have extra books that are not found in other versions. A difference in translation has nothing to do with a whole new book/chapter being added.

That fact that current thoughts on Judas aren't the same among Christians worldwide makes that statement very strange. It sounds like you're saying confusion about Judas is what God wanted.

Depends on if your a Catholic or not. One good thing about being Catholic, we are told what we believe, and there is no argument. We don't have a dozen sects, and thousands of members who all think that their version is what happened.

Odd, since Revelation was written before the Council at Nicea said what was going to be included in the Bible and what should be left out.

Revelations was written in 90 AD. Revelation ends with these verses:

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

Revelations 22:18-19

This denies Christians the chance to study and read and engage in theology. These kinds of texts aren't the Big Scandals media outlets intend to portray them as. Proper faith isn't shaken by this kind of thing any more than it was shaken by Dan Brown. If ones faith was shaken, well, don't blame the authors...

I don't think it's any type of scandal nor do I think it challenges anyones faith. I just believe that true Christians follow the teachings of the Bible, which cast Judas in a different light. To look outside those texts and try to build a new perspective is going against your own teachings.

[Niels]

www.bushisantichrist.com

whahahaha, and I didn't think there would be a lamer site then www.truechristian.com ! I was wrong. Thank you, that was very entertaining!

sobeh what did you study? It sounds very interesting what you tell... theology perhaps?

[Engulfed_in_darkness]

I know. Interesting eh?

[Engulfed_in_darkness]

www.truechristian.com
No. Thats pretty much lamer. lol

[Niels]

Originally Posted by Engulfed_in_darkness

I know. Interesting eh?

interesting? well, it's interesting as well entertaining to see the creativity from the christian extremists when it comes to the number 666. I bet they could make 666 from 'Mary had a little lamb' if they wanted to...

[Engulfed_in_darkness]

lol. Ill find some one who can XD

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Xnguela

See, now, I was sniffing around this thread and I was suddenly overwhelmed by the pungent odor of troll.

Don't worry, Xnguela, I think she's (he's?) not a troll. She (he?) is only zealous.

Oh, and Sobeh, about the Council of Nicea and Revelations.... It does say in Revelations not to add or take anything out of the Bible, but the Council of Nicea wasn't a religious thing; it was political.
The Council's purpose was to find a middle point between the fast-growing Christianism and the old yet powerful religions which still had impressive amounts of followers. That's why, for example, the most common image of God is very similar to the image of Zeus.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Engulfed_in_darkness

www.truechristian.com
No. Thats pretty much lamer. lol

That site is not serious right?
I think they're a parody, seeing as I can't see how anyone can sincerely believe the earth is flat

http://www.truechristian.com/earthflat.html

[Engulfed_in_darkness]

I take it as a joke. And if im the troll I just want you all to know im a boy. 13 years old.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Hehe, sorry. I was pretty sure I read you were a woman, but I was too lazy to look back at your introduction page.
I won't take you as a troll yet, although the things you said in response to my post sounded like a lucrative cult, but, so what? It's what you believe in

[Eforce]

www.bushantichrist.com

Yeah.... www.gaiaguys.net/666.htm and Jesus was the real "Anti-Christ" And 666 is just an "Anti-Logo"

[Niels]

www.gaiaguys.net/666.htm

www.bushantichrist.com

Maybe if they would make the layout of the site a little more appealing, I would actually read some of that nonsense... blegh!

Anyway, back to Judas...

[Engulfed_in_darkness]

LOL. All we need now is a site talking about the beast representing suntelia aion.

[Corpus_Draconis]

Originally Posted by Engulfed_in_darkness

The apocalypse is just a turn away and it WILL happen in 2012. When the antichrist is here the end is as well.

... Isn't the Apocalypse impossible to predict?

-------------

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Do you believe everything you read on the internet? Then why believe this document.

Why believe anything? I have a feeling that the Gospel of Judas is a little different than people putting things on the internet just to hear the thunder of fingers on a keyboard.

If you believe in Jesus, Christianity, etc. then you must believe in the Bible. It is a mixture of various works all put together many, many years ago, by the hand of God. To question why this information is NOT there is to question God. If God wanted that book in the Bible, he would have made sure it was included. Therefore one must also assume the current state and thoughts on Judas are EXACTLY what God wanted.

If you follow Christian morals, go to mass, etc, etc, but don't take the Bible literally, does that make you unchristian?
And the Bible wasn't put together by God. It was strategically assembled by Constantine & Co. to reduce tension and inconsitencies in the Christian faith.

Kinda clear cut that people, who believe, shouldn't be looking for more outside sources or view points on subjects covered within.

Not looking for outside sources leads to stagnation. No wonder homosexuality is still frowned upon...

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Revelations was written in 90 AD.

*clap clap clap clap* Congratulations! You've just proved Sobeh right. The First Council of Nicea happened in 325 AD.

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

Perhaps the "book" that the author is refering to is just Revelations, since Revelations was written before the Bible was compiled? And since most of the Bible is "history," and not prophesy...

It's not complete and it is true. Yes, interpretations of the Bible do exist, but NONE have extra books that are not found in other versions. A difference in translation has nothing to do with a whole new book/chapter being added.

Don't forget: the different interpretations have been different enough to be the basis for prosecution and holy wars, for example, the Catholic-Protestant antagonism in England, and the Albigensian Crusade.

Depends on if your a Catholic or not. One good thing about being Catholic, we are told what we believe, and there is no argument. We don't have a dozen sects, and thousands of members who all think that their version is what happened.

That smacks of Tyrany. If you're told to believe that all [insert non-Catholic group here] are worse than subhuman and do not have the right to live, would you believe it? Unquestionningly? Would you put such belief into action? If there was a gradual leading up to such a preaching, I bet you would. That's partly how Fascism was able to do the things it did.

-------------------

Originally Posted by http://www.crystalinks.com/ouroboros.html

Hindu Mythology - the dragon circling the tortoise which supports the four elephants that carry the world.

HOLY FUCK!!!!!! I thought that was just something Terry Pratchett made up in Discworld... Damn, I'm gonna have to e-mail my friend.

-------------------

Originally Posted by http://www.truechristian.com/earthflat.html

I mean the Bible is 100% correct no matter what since it says in the Bible that it is correct

I am correct in saying that All Elephants Are Blue.
The problem with that site is they've got their heads up their asses with Bibles taped to their noses. People long ago knew that the Earth was round (for example, that guy with the sticks in Alexandria measured the circumference of the Earth with impressive accuracy).
Oh, and Christopher Columbus didn't prove that the world was round. He just thought he did and happened to be right.

[WolfMoon]

Originally Posted by Niels

interesting? well, it's interesting as well entertaining to see the creativity from the christian extremists when it comes to the number 666. I bet they could make 666 from 'Mary had a little lamb' if they wanted to...

What I think is funny is the fact that whoever wrote the page uses numerology to divine 666 from Bush's name. Yet in the same page that says Bush's LongHorn Salute is actually a devil horn sign \m/ , it also says that numerology is a tool of the devil.


What a Hypo-Christian.

[Sobeh]

Goddamn Finals Week is kicking my ass.....

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Ummm...no. Just because it's old doesn't mean it's true.

You and I agree. What you quoted about what I said was that each old text has an agenda, even it was to convey truth as seen by the author. I never said they were true, but that for the most part those authors felt they were writing truth.

Originally Posted by CptSternn

It's not complete and it is true. Yes, interpretations of the Bible do exist, but NONE have extra books that are not found in other versions. A difference in translation has nothing to do with a whole new book/chapter being added.

But, the KJV translation, for example, decided to do away with a key book from the New Testament, James, wherein one can find the idea, paraphrased here: "Faith and Good works are essential to salvation". So each translation, as it comes down to us from the Council at Nicea, may indeed have gotten rid of some books. That's what the Apocrypha is.

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Depends on if your a Catholic or not. One good thing about being Catholic, we are told what we believe, and there is no argument. We don't have a dozen sects, and thousands of members who all think that their version is what happened.

http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/c...d_churches.htm

"There are three major groupings of Rites based on this initial transmission of the faith, the Roman, the Antiochian (Syria) and the Alexandrian (Egypt). Later on the Byzantine derived as a major Rite from the Antiochian, under the influence of St. Basil and St. John Chrysostom. From these four derive the over 20 liturgical Rites present in the Church today."

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Revelations was written in 90 AD. Revelation ends with these verses:

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

Revelations 22:18-19

Is the writer talking about the Bible, or is he talking about the BOOK of the bible he just finished writing, the Book of Revelation? It's this last he's referring to - the Bible as such didn't exist for another 250 years or so.

Originally Posted by CptSternn

I don't think it's any type of scandal nor do I think it challenges anyones faith. I just believe that true Christians follow the teachings of the Bible, which cast Judas in a different light. To look outside those texts and try to build a new perspective is going against your own teachings.

It's all Biblical hermeneutics. And while the Council was a political council, the Catholic Church upholds that the Holy Spirit prevented inerrancy from occurring. But there has never been a Bull on Judas, so to say one interpretation is right or wrong is, in fact, to add to the teachings, because 'the teachings' include nothing official about Judas.

[Engulfed_in_darkness]

Ergh. My Dad is visitng again. Hes talking about the gospel of judas saying tis a lie over and over, will he shut up?!

[Jane13]

Well, It makes sense to me that the other desciples wouldn't like Judas much after what he did, and it also makes sense that he would write more highly of himself (if he did indeed write that "gospel"), but according to the Catholic church, he went to Hell because after all that he knew and all that he experienced, he lost faith in the end and commited suicide.

My Priest doesn't even bother to argue whether or not he beleives it is actually written by Judas, or whether it is true, but he expalined why the Church will never change it's beleif that Judas is not a Saint.

[Blushing Heliophobe]

I hadn't read this thread yet but there's one thing no one mentioned yet, I think.

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Revelations was written in 90 AD. Revelation ends with these verses:

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

Revelations 22:18-19

When it says, 'this book', it is refering to the Book of Revelation. Not the Bible as a whole.

And just to play Devil's Advocate, Bible Canonization is done by groups of men and not God's booming voice from the sky.

In the end, I figure what happened thousands of years ago will never be crystal clear to us nowadays, and besides - what happened between Judas and God is going to stay between him and God no matter how much we speculate about it now.

And I always did think there was something amazingly evil about Wonderbread.

Now I know why.

[Engulfed_in_darkness]

Yes. Rather unusual how most things relating to ones profession are to be unspoke of...

[Sobeh]

Hidden poetry:

Originally Posted by Blushing Heliophobe

I hadn't read this thread yet...
And just to play Devil's Advocate...

Canonization is[n't]... from the sky...
Amazingly evil ... Wonderbread?
Now I know why.

I had mentioned the Revelation thing earlier, but only by a few hours. =)